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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Recall Roden

Author
Mammal Tafren
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#61 - 2011-10-16 21:52:21 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Most of the people working for the ILF seem to be an indictment of a drop in recruiting standards, which is disheartening, to say the least - they do not seem to understand the concept of the "burden of proof".

When an accusation or assertion is made, the onus of responsibility is upon the person or organisation who made it to provide evidence to substantiate it, not upon the people to whom it is made to falsify it.

That said:

The most recent news reports that mention the subject suggest that Intaki wishing to remain with the Federation are the majority. In fact, some were willing to take up arms over it and even consider themselves "Gallente".

I would also point out that the decision to choose Mordu's Legion in favour of the Federation Navy has not changed the security of the system a whit, yet some people still blame the lax security of the system upon the Federation, even though they haven't been responsible for that duty in over two years now.


Much of what Andreus says is correct, but not, I would suggest, that there is a drop in recruiting standards in the ILF.

I would agree with him that I do not think it is profitable to argue either that the majority of of Intaki are in favour of secession, nor the reverse, and I would argue this for a number of reasons.

1) There isn't enough evidence to support either position
2) It is irrelevant to the the Suresha's argument that Roden is an illegitimate President.
3) It is irrelevant to the legitimacy of the secession argument, even though that argument does not really apply to this particular thread.

I also agree with Andreus that the presence of Mordu's Legion in Intaki has not made the system safer, however, I think it is correct to say, to quote an official of the Intaki Assembly -
Quote:
"The Ishukone Agreement represented, and continues to represent, the best option for the long-term safety and security of our society."


I'm just not convinced on the subject of the Legion, for the moment.
Jon Engel
Machete Carbide
#62 - 2011-10-16 22:12:06 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Jon Engel wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Jon Engel wrote:
The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.


Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.



The Government of Intaki told the enforcers of Federal Authority to leave, twice.


Asking the Federal Navy to adhere to an old agreement when the Intaki joined the Federation is not proof of them wishing to leave the Federation.



Demanding the Federal Navy leave after the Militia worked so "hard" to take it back from Caldari occupation. A military is nothing more than force behind a Government. Without force, a Government has no authority. The Gallenteans have no authority in Intaki. Despite people's assertions otherwise.

The Militia has been asked to leave, despite being manipulated by Concord to be forced to host a FDU station. I'm not gonna play connect the dots for you, but even a flag waving sodomite Federal like yourself can see that not everything is as it seems.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#63 - 2011-10-16 22:13:18 UTC
Jon Engel wrote:
Demanding the Federal Navy leave after the Militia worked so "hard" to take it back from Caldari occupation. A military is nothing more than force behind a Government. Without force, a Government has no authority. The Gallenteans have no authority in Intaki. Despite people's assertions otherwise.
You just said that Ishukone has no authority in Intaki.

I'm not sure you really want to argue that.
Alain Octirant
Doomheim
#64 - 2011-10-16 22:52:03 UTC
Jon Engel wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Jon Engel wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Jon Engel wrote:
The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.


Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.



The Government of Intaki told the enforcers of Federal Authority to leave, twice.


Asking the Federal Navy to adhere to an old agreement when the Intaki joined the Federation is not proof of them wishing to leave the Federation.



Demanding the Federal Navy leave after the Militia worked so "hard" to take it back from Caldari occupation. A military is nothing more than force behind a Government. Without force, a Government has no authority. The Gallenteans have no authority in Intaki. Despite people's assertions otherwise.

The Militia has been asked to leave, despite being manipulated by Concord to be forced to host a FDU station. I'm not gonna play connect the dots for you, but even a flag waving sodomite Federal like yourself can see that not everything is as it seems.


This is nonsense. In fact, Engel, I'm pretty sure everything you say is nonsense.
Nakal Ashera
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2011-10-16 23:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nakal Ashera
When a being convinced of it's omnipotence is forced to confront a factor or entity it cannot control and does not favour, it must either accept that it is not omnipotent, or conclude that the factor or entity does not exist.

Pick-and-choose Capsuleer reality is frightening.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#66 - 2011-10-17 01:50:02 UTC
Jon Engel wrote:
The Militia has been asked to leave


This has never happened.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#67 - 2011-10-17 12:06:19 UTC
Jon Engel wrote:


Demanding the Federal Navy leave after the Militia worked so "hard" to take it back from Caldari occupation. A military is nothing more than force behind a Government. Without force, a Government has no authority. The Gallenteans have no authority in Intaki. Despite people's assertions otherwise.

The Militia has been asked to leave, despite being manipulated by Concord to be forced to host a FDU station. I'm not gonna play connect the dots for you, but even a flag waving sodomite Federal like yourself can see that not everything is as it seems.


This entire post is inaccurate on so many levels I'm not even sure where to begin.

I do suggest you check your facts and learn your history, you're doing a great dishonour to the people of Intaki if you can't be bothered to at least be knowledgeable of the facts before you start trying to talk on their behalf.

And I'm not Federal, I quite happily sit as a neutral, just one who likes to pick at terrible arguments made by either side of the fence. In this case I disagree with you and your terrible argument in the vain hope you'll at least learn something from your errors and maybe be a little more understanding of the situation you're trying to control in future.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-10-17 14:27:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
And so it comes down to quibble as usual.

The problem from these discussions seems to be people wanting to be against practically anything, even if it means going against notions and concepts they were against previously, therefore ultimately contradicting themselves no matter what kind of banner or slogan they choose to raise in that particular time. At the same time there's this massive inferiority complex, thinking they don't matter or are not heard or respected enough. Which is also ridiculous.

It's like teenagers arguing. You'd all make great material for the Senate.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#69 - 2011-10-17 15:18:47 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.


I have addressed this in the past, but I will do so again now for the ignorant and uninformed.

The Intaki Liberation Front does not claim to represent a majority view point. We represent those capsuleer and planetary population who agree with our platform. That platform includes a two-pronged political approach. The first being to lobby the Federation Senate and Supreme Court to make changes within the system. In addition, we also actively encourage the Intaki Assembly to reassert its autonomy with an eye towards ultimately reclaiming its Sovereignty and seceding from the Federation.

An aspect of both of these approaches is to continually educate and inform everyone "within the sound of our voice" as to the reasons why we feel as we do. We've been very successful over the years in reaching people and making converts both in space and on the ground.

What I cannot understand is the intolerance that seems to consume Gallente nationalists when they are faced with the shortcomings of their government. Rather than listen and consider the opinions of others, they instead seek to silence or intimidate any dissenting voice.

I was under the impression that the Gallente model was the universe's best example of democracy. What democracy seeks to eliminate discourse? What democracy believes that minorities have no right to express their opinions?

Intolerance such as this is counterproductive to any meaningful improvements to the Federation and further evidence that people of Intaki would likely be better served by a governance outside the Federation.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#70 - 2011-10-17 16:23:14 UTC
Saxon Hawke wrote:
...


That was a very long winded reply but for taking the quote out of context let me remind you that it was directed at Jon Engel who clearly stated

Jon Engel wrote:

The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.


That was a minority speaking for a majority, you might not claim to speak for the majority, but others are. Quoting me out of context, calling me ignorant and uninformed and then using that misquote from a neutral point of view as evidence as to why the Intaki should secede from the Federation goes beyond scraping the barrel to find things that fit your argument.

Quite frankly I stick with my assessment in a previous discussion on this forum with regards to dispute between the Intaki and Federation, I'd bang all your bloody heads together.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#71 - 2011-10-17 16:41:02 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
I'd bang all your bloody heads together.


Threats of violence are hardly an appropriate way of showing that my argument about the intolerance of nationalistic Gallente is incorrect.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#72 - 2011-10-17 16:49:38 UTC
Saxon Hawke wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
I'd bang all your bloody heads together.


Threats of violence are hardly an appropriate way of showing that my argument about the intolerance of nationalistic Gallente is incorrect.


Nono, you misunderstand.

I'd bang the heads of the the seperatists and the U-Nats together. Also how does such comment from a neutral prove your point about the U-Nats?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#73 - 2011-10-17 17:48:52 UTC
Hawke, this form of debate is beneath you. You know what he actually means. You're better than this.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Alain Octirant
Doomheim
#74 - 2011-10-17 22:25:21 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Hawke, this form of debate is beneath you. You know what he actually means. You're better than this.


Frankly, it's typical of the kind of sophistry employed by secessionists, especially as their actual arguments are entirely without merit.
Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#75 - 2011-10-17 22:39:24 UTC
Alain Octirant wrote:
Frankly, it's typical of the kind of sophistry employed by secessionists, especially as their actual arguments are entirely without merit.


My argument was that Federal citizens were denied their basic democratic rights and as such are being governed without their consent. As this is an affront to the principles on which the Federation was founded and seriously calls into question the legitimacy of the current presidential administration, I proposed that a recall election be held.

I fail to see how that is "entirely without merit."

Do you stand for democracy and freedom or against it? If you are for, then lets have a fair and full election. If you are against, then its best the people of Intaki know who stands opposed to their liberties.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#76 - 2011-10-17 22:42:50 UTC
Alain Octirant wrote:
Frankly, it's typical of the kind of sophistry employed by secessionists, especially as their actual arguments are entirely without merit.


Your approval of my admonishment fills me with shame, and I hereby retract it on general principle.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#77 - 2011-10-17 22:59:19 UTC
Saxon Hawke wrote:
Do you stand for democracy and freedom or against it? If you are for, then lets have a fair and full election. If you are against, then its best the people of Intaki know who stands opposed to their liberties.



But you can't have a fair election, not 3 years into a term with the value of hindsight. The only way you'd have a truly fair election is to go back in time, break the Caldari hold on Placid and liberate the systems from STPRO control.

You've two major problems with that plan though.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Alain Octirant
Doomheim
#78 - 2011-10-18 06:53:32 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:


Your approval of my admonishment fills me with shame, and I hereby retract it on general principle.


Such a pity, General Ixiris, and I had such high hopes for us.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#79 - 2011-10-18 13:25:19 UTC
Alain Octirant wrote:
Such a pity, General Ixiris, and I had such high hopes for us.


We agree that the Amarr people and culture are a severe threat to the stability of the cluster. After that, our paths fork so damn wildly we're travelling in pretty much opposite directions. I've got some pretty strong views, but you? Not only are you objectively wrong most of the time, you drive away both extant and potential allies from the Federal cause simply by opening your mouth.

Your close-mindedness is disgusting and antiquated and I want nothing to do with you. If you want to make a friend of me, there's going to need to be a sea change in your ****-poor attitude.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#80 - 2011-10-18 14:41:55 UTC
I support this debate and would like to see it continue.