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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Recall Roden

Author
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#41 - 2011-10-15 12:55:18 UTC
Jon Engel wrote:
The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.


Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Saul Ambrye
Ishukone Prosperity Exchange
#42 - 2011-10-15 17:56:57 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
[quote=Jon Engel]Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.


Are you prepared to provide evidence that desire for autonomy is a minority position other than repeated claims that the blessed and righteous Federation is beloved by all of its people that many voices of the nationalist movement come up with these days?

Because I'd hate to think a double-standard was being applied.

Saul Ambrye Executive Director Ishukone Prosperity Exchange "Cooperation is the greater path than conflict"

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#43 - 2011-10-15 18:06:07 UTC
Saul Ambrye wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.


Are you prepared to provide evidence that desire for autonomy is a minority position other than repeated claims that the blessed and righteous Federation is beloved by all of its people that many voices of the nationalist movement come up with these days?

Because I'd hate to think a double-standard was being applied.


In this case, a general lack of evidence is evidence itself. If the majority of Intaki wanted secession we'd have seen mass protest and uprising, as well as open support toward the Caldari from a majority populace and not a minority as was with the seperatist movement.

I don't have to provide evidence here, as I'm talking about the status quo and the way things are. Intaki is part of the Federation and her citizens are not showing a mass degree of backlash against this situation. Now prove that things aren't what they seem on the surface.

Oh and less of the "Blessed and Righteous" crap, it's the Federation we're talking about, not the Godhead Empire. Also being called a Nationalist is quite insulting, I pride myself on neutrality and the advantage of being able to pick out idiotic statements on either side of these pointless empire wars. I expect a good bottle of Vodka as an apology.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Saul Ambrye
Ishukone Prosperity Exchange
#44 - 2011-10-15 19:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Saul Ambrye
Caellach Marellus wrote:
In this case, a general lack of evidence is evidence itself.

Argument from ignorance, not entirely unsurprising.

I seem to be having trouble pulling up any recent polling data on President Roden's approval ratings, I will take this lack of evidence to be evidence that he must not be doing well.

"There's nothing outright saying it isn't true, so I will assume it is"

How do people actually contort themselves into these positions? Ah, to be young, again...

Quote:
If the majority of Intaki wanted secession we'd have seen mass protest and uprising, as well as open support toward the Caldari from a majority populace and not a minority as was with the seperatist movement.

Well, given the fact that the last time there were major demonstrations taking place in Placid, people were brutally repressed, severed from their families, exiled and left to rot at the mercy of narcotics peddlers, I doubt your premise that lack of vocalization necessarily proves anything about people's inclinations in this regard.

Just because the exact things you listed aren't happening does not remotely advance the validity of your claims.

Quote:
I don't have to provide evidence here, as I'm talking about the status quo and the way things are.

Appeal to Tradition.

The status quo doesn't need to be defended? I believe the only immutable law of nature I am aware of is that things can, do, and always will change. The only variable factor is time.

Quote:
Intaki is part of the Federation and her citizens are not showing a mass degree of backlash against this situation. Now prove that things aren't what they seem on the surface.

You haven't proven that is the surface, you've only presumptuously declared it so. That it emanated from your mouth does not make it gospel.

Quote:
Oh and less of the "Blessed and Righteous" crap, it's the Federation we're talking about, not the Godhead Empire. Also being called a Nationalist is quite insulting, I pride myself on neutrality and the advantage of being able to pick out idiotic statements on either side of these pointless empire wars. I expect a good bottle of Vodka as an apology.

I believe you seem to have missed my subtle reference to reverence for the Federation as taking on aspects of zealotry that rivals the Empire, but I'll work on being more overt in the future for your benefit.

The discussion we're having is not about the wars between the empires, so I'll just let that one go.

You consider "Nationalist" to be an insult, which can't speak well of your opinion of Nationalists, then turn and declare others idiotic. I suspect if I pursued this further, we'd end up with some variation of "it isn't an insult if it is true" that would allow you to circumvent the clear case of cognitive dissonance this reveals.

I'm more of a Scotch fan, myself.

All that said, there's little purpose to this, these words have been said dozens of times over. I merely wished to demonstrate the futility of "I demand evidence" statements in this particular venue. Even when evidence is produced, those who stand to lose something will slander whoever produced it, anyways.

Saul Ambrye Executive Director Ishukone Prosperity Exchange "Cooperation is the greater path than conflict"

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#45 - 2011-10-15 19:44:40 UTC
So, to sum it up, no one knows what the people of Intaki actually want, but everyone does their best to help them with what they think those people should want?

Very Amarrian of you.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#46 - 2011-10-15 19:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Saul Ambrye wrote:
Argument from ignorance, not entirely unsurprising.


Not really, I could bunch several quotes of your reply here, as they all seem to revolve around the same point so I'll say this.

The Intaki majority being happy with being part of the Federation would not be considered news and as such wouldn't be reported, the opposite would. In this case absence of proof really is proof itself.

If anything were happening the news feeds would be all over it, with political commentary on either side trying to spin the story to best suit their ideals and goals. The fact that there is no story to be had can only suggest one thing, and it doesn't take a genius to work it out.

Quote:
Well, given the fact that the last time there were major demonstrations taking place in Placid, people were brutally repressed, severed from their families, exiled and left to rot at the mercy of narcotics peddlers, I doubt your premise that lack of vocalization necessarily proves anything about people's inclinations in this regard.


Actually the only major demonstration in Intaki history was when they poured into the polling stations and mass voted for Foiritan. The uprisings during the Caldari-Gallente war that lead to the formation of the Syndicate were minor. Roughly 5,000 people sounds a big number, but when we're talking of an entire ethnicity of a planet, it's a minority.

Quote:
Just because the exact things you listed aren't happening does not remotely advance the validity of your claims.


So what is actually happening, beyond the whole "Me and my mates" scenario I described? You've asked me for my proof, where is the proof that the majority of the Intaki wish secession from the Federation?


Quote:
Quote:
Intaki is part of the Federation and her citizens are not showing a mass degree of backlash against this situation. Now prove that things aren't what they seem on the surface.

You haven't proven that is the surface, you've only presumptuously declared it so. That it emanated from your mouth does not make it gospel.


Then show me different, burden of proof lies with the accuser and seeing as you're pointing a finger here I'm sure you've plenty of evidence to support your side of things? As you said, we wouldn't want double standards here would we?

Scotch also works, infact most alcohol is fine with me.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Jon Engel
Machete Carbide
#47 - 2011-10-15 20:13:43 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Jon Engel wrote:
The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.


Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.



The Government of Intaki told the enforcers of Federal Authority to leave, twice.

Lets just look at why they would rather have Mordus Legion, Ishukone and Syndicate forces in the region as opposed to Federal Navy. You decide why, the point is that it's true. Whether that is contempt for Federation or wanting to be left alone is a discussion I haven't the time or patience to dissect here.

Carry on.
Jon Engel
Machete Carbide
#48 - 2011-10-15 20:22:54 UTC
Oh, and before this goes any further..

I am a long time and vocal proponent of Intaki Nationalism. Have been since before I took to the stars. I have donated weaponry and supplies of both food and medicine on numerous occasions to the Intaki Assembly and various Idama have come to know me and my efforts.

I take no insult in being called an Intaki Nationalist. I step up with pride that I am an Intaki who has neither accepted nor surrendered to Gallente Imperialism. Whether it is enforcing genocidal blockades on Syndicate Settlements or rounding up civilians for suspicions of dealings with Serpentis or Syndicate I call foul when the machinations of Gallente oppression bear down on my own kind for the sake of National Unity or Federation Victory in a pointless war.

Speak what you will, the time will come when the Caldari and Gallente empires get a dose of reality when they continue to attempt to use the Intaki as a wedge of power between their sibling rivalry complex.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#49 - 2011-10-15 20:26:27 UTC
Jon Engel wrote:
Lets just look at why they would rather have Mordus Legion, Ishukone and Syndicate forces in the region as opposed to Federal Navy.
Small correction, Ishukone forces are not welcome in Intaki space.[1]
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#50 - 2011-10-15 20:38:13 UTC
Jon Engel wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Jon Engel wrote:
The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.


Minorities should stop speaking for majorities, unless you'd like to back that claim up with some actual evidence other than examples of the minority breaking away in the past, or the "me and my mates" attitude that many voices of the separatist movement come with these days.



The Government of Intaki told the enforcers of Federal Authority to leave, twice.


Asking the Federal Navy to adhere to an old agreement when the Intaki joined the Federation is not proof of them wishing to leave the Federation.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

I'm 5particus
REV0LTING
#51 - 2011-10-15 22:08:47 UTC

The Gallente could learn from our example of how to handle sedition.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-10-15 23:37:54 UTC
I have some Nationalist acquaintances. They enjoy much more discreet and somber means.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Alain Octirant
Doomheim
#53 - 2011-10-16 01:17:03 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
I have some Nationalist acquaintances. They enjoy much more discreet and somber means.


Quite right, Madam. Nationalists really are the best people.

As for Mr Ambrye, he is the quintessential wolf in sheep's clothing. This is a representative of a profit-driven Caldari megacorporation subsidiary, who is also a member of that terrorist front company, the Intaki Prosperity Initiative. If any Gallente Nationalist wanted further proof that the ILF and its lackeys are nothing more than a fifth column for eventual Caldari occupation in Placid, you have it in the person of Mr Ambrye.

Just like the rest of the Ishukone Corporation, his motive is profit, whether it is to be made in Placid or selling Transcranial Microcontrollers to the Khanids in order to promote slavery.

Do not believe their lies.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#54 - 2011-10-16 11:24:42 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
So, to sum it up, no one knows what the people of Intaki actually want, but everyone does their best to help them with what they think those people should want?

Very Amarrian of you.


Yes.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#55 - 2011-10-16 14:38:30 UTC
Most of the people working for the ILF seem to be an indictment of a drop in recruiting standards, which is disheartening, to say the least - they do not seem to understand the concept of the "burden of proof".

When an accusation or assertion is made, the onus of responsibility is upon the person or organisation who made it to provide evidence to substantiate it, not upon the people to whom it is made to falsify it.

That said:

The most recent news reports that mention the subject suggest that Intaki wishing to remain with the Federation are the majority. In fact, some were willing to take up arms over it and even consider themselves "Gallente".

I would also point out that the decision to choose Mordu's Legion in favour of the Federation Navy has not changed the security of the system a whit, yet some people still blame the lax security of the system upon the Federation, even though they haven't been responsible for that duty in over two years now.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#56 - 2011-10-16 15:34:25 UTC
I don't know why these ILF hippies want to get rid of him, but I completely agree. IMPEACH THAT MISSILE LOVING CROOK JACQUES RODEN!

His corporation, Roden Shipyards, has stolen countless trillions of isk by collecting government research contracts and not producing one tangible improvement in Gallente hulls nor weapons in years. No hull improvements, no mods improvements - nothing. This has put our militia pilots in a very difficult position. We are either forced to fight at a severe disadvantage with Gallente hulls, or we are forced to fly other race's ships (very dishonorable).

I hear that both Creodron and Duvolle are going to announce advances in drone and blaster technology in the upcoming months. But if they don't, then I'm putting a bullseye on them too!
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#57 - 2011-10-16 16:05:25 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
yet some people still blame the lax security of the system upon the Federation, even though they haven't been responsible for that duty in over two years now.


Completely forgetting that the low security status of the Intaki system is down to the initial agreement with the Federation that they would police their own space and didn't want Federal Navy in their space?

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Julianus Soter
Moira.
Villore Accords
#58 - 2011-10-16 16:28:04 UTC
Sooooo, you've come back from the dead to request something I demanded three years ago, that about the sum of it, Mr. Hawke?

Moira. Corporation CEO, Executor, Villore Accords, @Julianus_Soter https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99001634/

Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#59 - 2011-10-16 17:56:23 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
IMPEACH THAT MISSILE LOVING CROOK JACQUES RODEN!


You speak of "missile loving" as if there's something wrong with it. Missiles are the only time of munition that can significantly self-correct their own trajectory. If you fail to see the advantages in fire-and-forget weaponry that's your problem, not Roden's. You do realise that Jacus Roden doesn't even run Roden Shipyards anymore?

It's a relative of his, Milloise Roden, presumably his daughter.

X Gallentius wrote:
We are either forced to fight at a severe disadvantage with Gallente hulls, or we are forced to fly other race's ships (very dishonorable).


It's a very antiquated and misguided concept of honour when one doesn't use the best tools for the job out of sheer personal pride. The Caldari have made their technology available on the open market, as have the Minmatar, the Amarr and the Gallente. If a ship of a race other than the Federation's is the best ship to use in its defence, making a conscious decision to use an inferior ship is not honourable - it's vanity, close-mindedness and rigidity, all very dishonourable characteristics.

X Gallentius wrote:
I hear that both Creodron and Duvolle are going to announce advances in drone and blaster technology in the upcoming months. But if they don't, then I'm putting a bullseye on them too!


Yes, that's a very mature way of getting what you want, isn't it?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#60 - 2011-10-16 18:25:16 UTC
And you, sir, speak as if there is something inherently "good" about missiles.

And if you were allied with the Federatin Militia, you would know that having Federation designed ships and weapons are critical - especially since it is these weapons and systems we were trained to use and are supplied at reduced rates from FW agents. Using othe races' weapons and ships takes time and energy that is better suited for the warzone - not logistics.

Nothing else has worked. The Federation Military Industrial Complex, especially Roden Shipyards, should be put on notice. They have been given trillions of isk in research dollars. It is time for results now.