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Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

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Empress Shadowfox Ordo
The Shadowfox Empire
#761 - 2012-10-06 06:00:28 UTC
There's something I noticed that I wanted to ask a question about.

We've been talking about the NPC timer a lot and it's possible effects on Mission Runners. But, I've noticed that already in the game, there is a significant difference between Mission NPC's and say Belt NPC's, specifically in the Aggression timer. Right now, you can shoot at Mission NPC's with no drawbacks at all, including aggression timers. If you are shot at by a Belt NPC, then there is an aggression timer.

So, my question is pretty much this. When we're talking about the NPC flag, does this only apply to NPC's that currently would give us an Aggression timer, or does it apply to all NPC's, including Mission NPC's that currently don't give us a timer? This would solve a lot of the fears for Mission runners that sudden log offs would kill them in missions, since they wouldn't have an NPC timer from Mission NPC's, but only from any other type of NPC that would currently give an Aggression timer.
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#762 - 2012-10-06 06:05:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
Your scenario was the 'stuff the dying T3 into an Orca than escape to highsec' trick. Yes, got that.
But it all relies on Orcas. I fail to see how you can replicate the scenario you described without the Orca/carrier.
And that's just the point: remove the Orca and some other way will be found to replicate it, so “fixing” the Orca doesn't solve anything. Instead, they're going after the mechanic that's actually problematic: the ability to get a new ship out of [wherever] in the middle of a fight or to whisk one away when it's lost.


I just said, "I fail to see how it can be replicated without the Orca" as in, fix the Orca, fix the problem. No need to restrict ejecting or boarding ships at all. After all, the fix doesn't have to be ship specific. It merely has to apply to all Ship Maintenence Bays.

Just humor me for a second.

CNR chooses to shoot at a looting ninja in a Vigil. Vigil tackles the CNR, but can't kill the CNR. Ninja Alt brings a Hurricane to the mission space and ejects. Vigil pilot jumps into the Hurricane and re-tackles. Vigil floats in space, and is thus destroyed. Hurricane then destroys CNR.

Fair or unfair? Nothing was 'saved' or 'whisked away', after all.
If you consider this to be 'unfair', there really isn't any point in continuing the debate. You simply want mission baiting gone - or at minimum, believe that mission runners are somehow entitled to a 60 second escape window after they initiated an engagement with a 'harmless' frigate.

Personally I consider it to be a 'fair' tactic. The Vigil is fair game, and can be destroyed. The Hurricane is fair game and can be destroyed. The ninja is not required break the tackle. The CNR can bring in others to help attack the suspect. The new AI will make doing all of this far more unpredictable.

All you have to do is prevent the Orca or (enter Ship Maintence Bay ship here) from 'scooping' or ''whisking away' ships.
And you can easily do that without eliminating 'ejecting' (a valid escape tactic for pods....) or 'boarding' (ie, ninja baiting)
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#763 - 2012-10-06 06:17:21 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:


You will no longer be able to steal with impunity.
You will no longer be able to get agro in one ship, then change to another after the battle is joined.
You will no longer be able to use remote reps with immunity.
You will no longer be able to ignore the docking timers that everyone else has to operate under.
You will no longer be able to instantly escape webs, scrams, and neuts at will.

In short, you will have to risk your ship if you want to grief other people.


Lets go down the list:
1) You don't get to steal with impunity now. (The entire corporation can retailate)
2) Not abusive, as long as all ships remain on the battlefield. If you "Got Aggro" it means you were shot at, after all. A carebear in a Battleship thought it would be fun to pop your Vigil....why should these aggressive carebears be defended?
3) You can't remote rep with immunity now. A RR player gets flagged. Hard to dock up in mission space, after all.
4) Ignore docking timers? What are you talking about? An orca isn't a starbase. POS's don't have docking timers either.
5) You can't right now, in highsec. If you are webbed or scrammed, locked, being shot at - you can't dock in an Orca. This should apply to lowsec as well, of course.
Med'an Medivh
Super Mining Bros - 3D
#764 - 2012-10-06 06:18:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Med'an Medivh
I have probably completely misunderstood this, but are you intending that attacking mission rats will get me a flag, and that anybody/everybody who sees me is legal to try and kill me, while I'm waiting for the timer to wear off so I can dock and turn in the mission??? Shocked ... nevermind the fact I've never had to sit outside a station and wait out a timer in order to complete a mission!
And also we have to loot containers in most missions...we're going to get suspect flags for this??? What?

For crying out loud brand new Eve players who have been here for 15 minutes have to kill a mission rat in the third AURA tutorial. Surely you're not intending every other Eve player to be able to gank the new players the second they leave the INTRO TUTORIAL mission???
I must be reading this all wrong...otherwise you're going to lose every single new Eve player withing the first hour of starting to play the game.
Pipa Porto
#765 - 2012-10-06 06:31:35 UTC
Med'an Medivh wrote:
I have probably completely misunderstood this


You have.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#766 - 2012-10-06 07:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bart Starr wrote:
I just said, "I fail to see how it can be replicated without the Orca"
…and that's fine, but it's also just you and just right now. The Orca is not the problem so fixing it is pretty meaningless. Sure, you could also fix the Orca, but that would be for different reasons (e.g. extending the notion of “support”).

The problem is obtaining and hiding ships when you shouldn't. That is what's being fixed, and it's being fixed at the root rather than treating one specific incarnation of it. You'll notice that the exact same rules also affect corp hangars at POSes, in carriers, and in any other guise they may appear, as well as stations and other dockables in whatever form those may appear — now and in the future. When they invent new ways of storing and delivering ships, those will automatically also be covered because they have chosen to go for the root cause rather than the symptoms.
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#767 - 2012-10-06 07:33:32 UTC
ihcn wrote:
I think the current state of hisec is fine. EVE is about decisions. Right now, a miner in a hulk has to decide "Should I jetcan mine? My cargo is small, so it would greatly improve my ability to solo mine, but there are risks, so im not sure". That's great. After this change goes in, the risk for jetcan mining will be reduced in a gigantic way. Now the miners don't have to make that decision and the game becomes dumber.

In what way does the decision faced by the miner change? No part of the new crimewatch will change how jetcan mining works. It won't prevent anyone from flipping the can. The only thing it does is let anyone shoot the flipper if he doesn't leave after the theft. It doesn't broadcast a giant WARP TO ME beacon. It doesn't make him asplode for no reason. It only lets the thief get shot at by someone other than the miner. That's the only difference between the old and new crimewatch.
ihcn wrote:
This is just one example. Another example, which I face every day, is how much ISK worth of stuff to put in a hauler that has to fly through niarja or uedama. 100 million? 300 million? 2 billion? If you put too much, people looking for profit will blow up your ship and take the loot. After the crime watch changes take effect, it will be much harder to profit off of suicide ganks, meaning I have less risk, and therefore I will have fewer decisions to make, and the game once again becomes dumber.

Pipa Porto wrote:
I'll ask again.
Dear CCP,
Is there a specific reason why you want to raise the safe hauling limit for Freighters to the neighborhood of 10b ISK?

How does any change to crimewatch and flagging affect the amount of firepower (and thus isk) required to destroy a hauler? Quick answer: it doesn't. There will be zero change to what it takes to gank a hauler and have it be profitable. No extra costs, no extra losses. Gate guns will shoot you in both the new and old system. Concord will show up in highsec in both the new and old system. The only real difference between new and old? Your sec status won't drop below -5 unless you break some eggs.

Cerulean Ice, Professor, E-UNI
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#768 - 2012-10-06 07:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cerulean Ice wrote:
How does any change to crimewatch and flagging affect the amount of firepower (and thus isk) required to destroy a hauler? Quick answer: it doesn't. There will be zero change to what it takes to gank a hauler and have it be profitable. No extra costs, no extra losses. Gate guns will shoot you in both the new and old system. Concord will show up in highsec in both the new and old system. The only real difference between new and old? Your sec status won't drop below -5 unless you break some eggs.
The difference is that there is a higher chance of not getting the loot and that the most direct method means a second halving of the expected drop rate (on top of additional costs to get it).

Granted, proper prep and technique should be able to improve those odds massively, but still…
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#769 - 2012-10-06 07:50:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cerulean Ice wrote:
How does any change to crimewatch and flagging affect the amount of firepower (and thus isk) required to destroy a hauler? Quick answer: it doesn't. There will be zero change to what it takes to gank a hauler and have it be profitable. No extra costs, no extra losses. Gate guns will shoot you in both the new and old system. Concord will show up in highsec in both the new and old system. The only real difference between new and old? Your sec status won't drop below -5 unless you break some eggs.
The difference is that there is a higher chance of not getting the loot and that the most direct method means a second halving of the expected drop rate (on top of additional costs to get it).

Granted, proper prep and technique should be able to improve those odds massively, but still…

I don't see it. There is no change to the odds of loot dropping. Stealing from cans/wrecks doesn't cause a sec hit or criminal flag, so gate guns and concord won't get involved. There would be a little more risk for the looter if he gets a suspect flag, but aligning before looting should be the standard anyway. Looting doesn't prevent docking.

Where does the higher chance of not getting the loot come from?

Cerulean Ice, Professor, E-UNI
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#770 - 2012-10-06 07:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cerulean Ice wrote:
I don't see it.
You pop freighter; you use your own freighter to take the loot; your freighter is now free-for-all and gets popped. Each pop halves the expected loot drop, so instead of ½ it is now ¼ (and needs to pay for the lost freighter as well).

Compare this to the current situation where the only menace to that freighter is a guy who's sitting in a pod.
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#771 - 2012-10-06 07:59:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cerulean Ice wrote:
I don't see it.
You pop freighter; you use your own freighter to take the loot; your freighter is now free-for-all and gets popped. Each pop halves the expected loot drop, so instead of ½ it is now ¼ (and needs to pay for the lost freighter as well).

Compare this to the current situation where the only menace to that freighter is a guy who's sitting in a pod.

So the freighter has to align before he loots now. As I said, it should be the standard anyway. If you align for station, with the loot window and your cargo open, and the station selected, it's a simple two click procedure to be in the safety of warp immediately. Select all the loot, drag the loot into your cargo, click warp to station. Safe. No risk to the freighter.

Cerulean Ice, Professor, E-UNI
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#772 - 2012-10-06 08:06:37 UTC
Cerulean Ice wrote:
So the freighter has to align before he loots now. As I said, it should be the standard anyway. If you align for station, with the loot window and your cargo open, and the station selected, it's a simple two click procedure to be in the safety of warp immediately. Select all the loot, drag the loot into your cargo, click warp to station. Safe. No risk to the freighter.
Sure, but as described, that procedure takes a minute and a half, giving scavengers ample time to pick the juicy bits (after which you can try to shoot them, obviously, but that once again halves the expected drop). Freighters aren't exactly drive-by superstars.

So the actual solution requires a bit more finesse….
Cerulean Ice
Royal Amarr Reclamation
#773 - 2012-10-06 08:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cerulean Ice
Tippia wrote:
Cerulean Ice wrote:
So the freighter has to align before he loots now. As I said, it should be the standard anyway. If you align for station, with the loot window and your cargo open, and the station selected, it's a simple two click procedure to be in the safety of warp immediately. Select all the loot, drag the loot into your cargo, click warp to station. Safe. No risk to the freighter.
Sure, but as described, that procedure takes a minute and a half, giving scavengers ample time to pick the juicy bits (after which you can try to shoot them, obviously, but that once again halves the expected drop). Freighters aren't exactly drive-by superstars.

So the actual solution requires a bit more finesse….

Or a few corpmates with webs ^^

Edit: Just came across this. It's worth a look. themittani.com report on crimewatch

Cerulean Ice, Professor, E-UNI
Pipa Porto
#774 - 2012-10-06 08:23:56 UTC
Cerulean Ice wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Cerulean Ice wrote:
I don't see it.
You pop freighter; you use your own freighter to take the loot; your freighter is now free-for-all and gets popped. Each pop halves the expected loot drop, so instead of ½ it is now ¼ (and needs to pay for the lost freighter as well).

Compare this to the current situation where the only menace to that freighter is a guy who's sitting in a pod.

So the freighter has to align before he loots now. As I said, it should be the standard anyway. If you align for station, with the loot window and your cargo open, and the station selected, it's a simple two click procedure to be in the safety of warp immediately. Select all the loot, drag the loot into your cargo, click warp to station. Safe. No risk to the freighter.


If only there were some way to prevent a Freighter from aligning... hmmm.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#775 - 2012-10-06 08:37:02 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Cerulean Ice wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Cerulean Ice wrote:
I don't see it.
You pop freighter; you use your own freighter to take the loot; your freighter is now free-for-all and gets popped. Each pop halves the expected loot drop, so instead of ½ it is now ¼ (and needs to pay for the lost freighter as well).

Compare this to the current situation where the only menace to that freighter is a guy who's sitting in a pod.

So the freighter has to align before he loots now. As I said, it should be the standard anyway. If you align for station, with the loot window and your cargo open, and the station selected, it's a simple two click procedure to be in the safety of warp immediately. Select all the loot, drag the loot into your cargo, click warp to station. Safe. No risk to the freighter.


If only there were some way to prevent a Freighter from aligning... hmmm.


Since when can freighters loot?
Don Salaris
#776 - 2012-10-06 08:38:33 UTC
I gave up after reading 10 pages, so excuse me if this has been set before.
As a high-sec care-bear I'll limit my comments to what I do in high-sec

If you want rules to be easily understood, then they need to reflect normal behavior in RL. And last time I checked when someone yelled 'thief'' a public lynching is not really the normal way to react.

What do I do today as 'aggression' ' :
* well if I find a ship-wreck floating around and the contents is nice enough , then I not only salvage it but take the contents too. After evaluating the risk ofc ( the owner is still in system (or alot of his mates)) . Usually that's just someone who get in over their head in an anomalie or got shot down at a gate (for one reason or another).
* I shoot pirate-factions ships in belts.

Both things are not very logical at the moment, and will also not be so in the new system as I understand.

If would be a lot more logical RL rules where implemented :

1/ If you steal something and no one is around (= someone who is connected to the object by corps/alliance/fleet) then don't report the theft. And 'around' means in a 100-200 km range or so. If someone is around, you get reported. This can be calculated before hand, so that you get a warning 'You are stealing. You will be reported/not reported for this. bla bla to explain it for new players'. Once the calculation is done, it's irrelevant of if someone still shows up in highsec. In low-sec you can recalculate when the action actually occurs.

Remark1 : NPC's (concord etc...° do not report, it must be player driven. Otherwise people could dump alot of stuff at gates without risk. A logical explanation can be that the 'police' only intervenes after a complaint for non physical attacks.

Remark2 : for jetcan miners this will pose a problem. When they get a transporter their can will be unattended and can be stolen without repercussions. But frankly if you leave a briefcase somewhere in a street and then go for a walk, who is surprised when it's gone when you come back? So either they have to keep a guard in the neighbourhood or take the risk.
Perhaps it would be doable to reduce the visibiliy of cans. so that a flipper does not get a complete overview once he reaches a belt. but that he only sees those within 20 km or so. All that ore in those belts must surely hamper scans... :)

2/ If you are reported, then getting shot at by everyone is not normal. And not logical in Eve's world of corps with their self-interest. You should be a target for the corps/alliance/fleet. And you also get the attention of the 'police'. That last one must not be total destruction but perhaps a fine or so. Even here you can build in some gradation : with low security toons getting more attention (=higher fines) from concord then the ones with high security levels. Now if that is hard to implement or not, is really irrelevant. Just be creative :)

3/ Pirates are pirates. They are not really well-liked in RL. So shooting at/stealing from/.... someone belonging to a pirate-faction should always be allowed without repurcussions. Getting flagged for aggro is ridicoulous. Pirates should not get 'legal' rights to fight back. They are pirates. What do they care for legal rights.

Just my 5 cents.
Cismet
Silent Knights.
LinkNet
#777 - 2012-10-06 08:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cismet
Tippia wrote:
Kmelx wrote:
Bottom line is if they commit a crime in low sec and jump to high sec concord should blap them for it, the same as they do now, it shouldn't be a possible survival strategy for pirates to run away and hide in high sec. People commiting criminal acts in low security space shouldn't be able to run and hide in supposedly high sec space, its completley backwards.
They can't run and hide in highsec any more than they can in lowsec, and even so, didn't that sound a bit backwards to you? “High sec space” sounds exactly like where you would go to run and hide. Blink


That's a very silly thing to say and is the equivalent of saying "If I go burgle someone's house and I'm wanted, the safest place for me to hide must be in or around a police station." If you're a criminal, you're a criminal. That's simple. Now in reality I don't much care, there are ways in and out of low-sec regardless of this. Go find a wormhole and go in that way. There are ways around all of this but why are you suddenly not a criminal just because you're on the frontier? If anything justice on the frontier should be harsher? Okay so the gate sentries will still forget about you but if you go through to high-sec you should be wanted.

I find the pod situation interesting though, I foresee some hide and seek games around systems as you wait for the timer to expire on you before you can dock having lost a fight. The bit that does cause me some concern is allowing pod-kills for aggression. I was always under the impression that pod-killing was always outlawed in High-Sec, why allow it under those circumstances, is it meant to be a potential drawback to gankers if they lose?

To the people who think that can-flipping as a career is dead, of course it isn't. Can flipping is dead (and should be) when you literally move the contents of one can directly into another can. How does it suddenly become your stuff? It was simply a cheap mechanism to try and force a miner to engage. Nothing wrong with that but if you want to can flip you should actually steal the stuff, not just move it to a new container. It's still the miner's stuff, you've just wrapped it in a shiny new can for them and that's how it should be as I see it.

Forgot about wormholes, from what was said earlier on this thread, wormholes will stop you jumping under certain circumstances (from high-sec with suspect and criminal flags as I understand, though I might be misremembering.) Now, why would a wormhole (or more appropriately how) stop you jumping in any circumstances? You should be able to jump through a wormhole at any point as there is no rational explanation as to how they would prevent you from doing so. The criminal timer should continue or concord should just follow you to keep the "no getting away from Concord" bit but I see no reason why you should stop the jump.
Witchking Angmar
Perkele.
#778 - 2012-10-06 08:43:46 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Absocold wrote:
Giving light interdictors a 'W' flag just for activating an interdiction sphere launcher will make them unable to jump through a gate after doing so. Dics are supposed to be able to jump after launching a bubble as long as no one tries to warp in it, this was broken for a while and was only recently fixed, you're about to break it again.

Nope. It was always intended to work this way, but never did. Then it got fixed so that it would prevent you from jumping after launching. Then it got broken again recently.

I was under the impression this was intentionally changed back, seeing as how giving interdictors the weapons flag for launching a bubble is ********. Roll
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#779 - 2012-10-06 08:54:42 UTC
Katarina Reid wrote:
Since when can freighters loot?
Since roughly forever, but only from freighter wrecks.
Kumbu Valley
Funatix Sanctuary
Funatix
#780 - 2012-10-06 08:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kumbu Valley
Please think about change the legal owner of wrecks to the following:
- former owner player
- fleet & corp (both) of aggressing / killed by player

Else at the moment I dont not understand how it shall be possible to loot ANY wreck at in high sec at all. No matter if the ship was killed within war or by legal counter attack or even by GCC gank attack. I dont think you want to make looting nearly impossible, especial with having a few more other player around. I hope but I expect you to have thought sufficiently about this. Regards.