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Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#741 - 2012-10-05 23:36:48 UTC
When I read the new DEV blog, I found one point really stood out upon which I wanted to shares my thoughts. We are talking about the suspect flagging system.

To briefly summarize, players will be able to flag themselves as "red flashy" to the whole universe without NPC police nor CONCORD intervention by committing a "soft" crime such as can stealing.

This will essentially kill -5 to -10 piracy; which is not necessarily a bad thing. It was already proposed/discussed in another thread where someone (Herr Wilkus) suggested red flashy pirates should not be chased by NPC police in highsec, thus promoting highsec PVP while giving the upper-hand to characters with a positive sec status. One of the main arguments against that was "criminals should stay locked out of highsec". It's a silly argument, and here's why:

People don't go "red flashy" because they can't control their urge to kill "helpless noobs". They go "red flashy" because they want people to notice and attack them. For instance, my main does not kill pods because I'm a killmail *****, I kill them because they offer me the greatest sec status hit, bringing me closer to my goal, "-10". People also go "red flashy" because it adds to the prestige... A certain "status" if you will. You can almost read "BAD MOTHER****ER" on the back of those ships.

But why would anyone want to go "-10", carebears might ask? It's simple, we can now offer PVP to anyone (even neutrals) in lowsec without going GCC. They just need to shoot first, like Han Solo. The problem is that lowsec, as we all know it, has a very thin population. This is why "-10's" will hug lowsec hotspots, looking for someone to aggress them.

So thank you CCP, for opening the doors to highsec. Thank you CCP, for I do not need to permanently go "red flashy" anymore. As of winter, we will be able to camp highsec systems with a criminal flag without being chased by NPC police and smoke anyone who thinks they know PVP.

You think all you need to do is not get involved? Imagine this: you are mining in highsec when suddenly a wild James315 appears! What's this? He IS red flashy AND coming for the bump? Don't tell me you won't try shooting him now.

Done right, this will be a huge buff to highsec PVP.

Brace yourselves, winter is coming.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#742 - 2012-10-05 23:47:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
What i'll miss in the future, because of the new CrimeWatch ...


Really young players cruising around, looking for cans or wrecks to take the loot from.
Not the noobs who don't know better, but those who do it on purpose,
because they don't want to PvE for their isk, but still be in space.

These are the people seeking contact to others.

Me too loves to cruising through regions, grabbing whatever he can find.



I don't need to care about being a Suspect, because i'm worse anyway ...

... but the noob might *not even consider* stealing from wrecks/cans for money ...
... because the thought of having to deal with *everybody* scares him off !


This change works both ways.
ihcn
Life. Universe. Everything.
#743 - 2012-10-05 23:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ihcn
Jarin Arenos wrote:
Edit:
ihcn wrote:
Because eve is and has been advertised as a pure pvp game, since day one. "no pvp vs non-pvp zones" was literally a selling point.

except at this point hisec is basically a non-pvp zone. you whiners complained loud enough and now you've gotten your way. enjoy your cartoon game for babies.

So you're crying that you can't get easy kills on people that don't share your playstyle and would not be playing the game if highsec didn't exist? I don't think I'm ever going to understand your viewpoint. That'd be like me complaining about the talk of a POS revamp because I don't own a POS, and hating everyone who uses one.

I didn't say hisec shouldn't exist. I spend most of my time in hisec, and not even doing stuff like hisec piracy. I do hisec/lowsec exploration, and I trade.

I think the current state of hisec is fine. EVE is about decisions. Right now, a miner in a hulk has to decide "Should I jetcan mine? My cargo is small, so it would greatly improve my ability to solo mine, but there are risks, so im not sure". That's great. After this change goes in, the risk for jetcan mining will be reduced in a gigantic way. Now the miners don't have to make that decision and the game becomes dumber. This is just one example. Another example, which I face every day, is how much ISK worth of stuff to put in a hauler that has to fly through niarja or uedama. 100 million? 300 million? 2 billion? If you put too much, people looking for profit will blow up your ship and take the loot. After the crime watch changes take effect, it will be much harder to profit off of suicide ganks, meaning I have less risk, and therefore I will have fewer decisions to make, and the game once again becomes dumber.

People like you would prefer if hisec was a brainless grindfest and all the "big meanies" who want to actually play the game as it was advertised can't do anything about it. well, like I said before, EVE is advertised as being a hard game. "EVE is hard" was literally a tag line. Hisec is already easy. Why are you trying to make it easier?
Fortuna Cournot
Red Phoenix Rising
#744 - 2012-10-05 23:59:50 UTC
one of the best changes ever.

but i hope the "eject"/"switch ship" rules are removed.
I can't see the benefit. What you are addressing with it?

Drugs only for capsuleers!

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#745 - 2012-10-06 00:04:48 UTC
Fortuna Cournot wrote:
one of the best changes ever.

but i hope the "eject"/"switch ship" rules are removed.
I can't see the benefit. What you are addressing with it?
A habit people have picked up in lowsec where they use Orcas to save ships (and SP) they should by all rights have lost.
Fortuna Cournot
Red Phoenix Rising
#746 - 2012-10-06 00:16:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Fortuna Cournot wrote:
one of the best changes ever.

but i hope the "eject"/"switch ship" rules are removed.
I can't see the benefit. What you are addressing with it?
A habit people have picked up in lowsec where they use Orcas to save ships (and SP) they should by all rights have lost.


Please tell me more, because i'm still to lazy to understand it... why does the Orca saves them ? Wouldn't it be better to flag the Orca for giving landing permission ?

Drugs only for capsuleers!

OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#747 - 2012-10-06 00:19:06 UTC
BOLEVINE wrote:


Yes lets make the game super safe for all you cute and cuddley little care bears so no bad people can bother you and steal your loot. These rules will simply kill this game as there will no more pvp in high sec. Low sec pvp will suck even worse then it does now. All that will be left is to join the "Borg like" environment in null where it take 0 skill to follow around a blob and press the button when told. 3 yrs invested in this game and now the care bears will finally completely ruin it. Game over...



Check killboards first before calling people carebears.

Actually, better still, don't call people carebears at all. I happen to be a pirate, that's what I like to do, but you will never see me talking trash about how ANYONE likes to play the game. Being a pirate is no more special than being a Miner or Trader or Battleship Maker. There is no "elite" play style. It's just regular people spending their money and enjoying the game.




Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#748 - 2012-10-06 00:33:26 UTC
Fortuna Cournot wrote:
Please tell me more, because i'm still to lazy to understand it... why does the Orca saves them ?
You're in your well-planned camp and suddenly things go south. Your pimped T3 is two pips away from destruction and a loss of one of your lvl V skills. So you store your stratcruiser in the nearby Orca, which instantly jumps through the gate into highsec (where the attackers can't go, both because they have aggression timers and maybe also because they're currently under GCC and would get CONCORDed), and since they were locked onto your ship, the pod you're in is free to just warp off.

End result: you are free to commit a bajillion-ISK, auto-SP losing ship into a fight without any risk of losing either it or your SP. If they try to go after the Orca, they take GCC and sentry fire (and the Orca just jumps through and saves itself while you warp off).

Quote:
Wouldn't it be better to flag the Orca for giving landing permission ?
That would be a good idea as well (not just “instead of”), but they don't want to try to copy flags like that at this stage because it risks opening up for new nasty ideas…
Fortuna Cournot
Red Phoenix Rising
#749 - 2012-10-06 00:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Fortuna Cournot
Quote:
Quote:
Wouldn't it be better to flag the Orca for giving landing permission ?
That would be a good idea as well (not just “instead of”), but they don't want to try to copy flags like that at this stage because it risks opening up for new nasty ideas…


It isn't nasty at all (if the orca ship has to accept the flagging by some dialog/protocol)! Blink DEVS!!! Bear

Drugs only for capsuleers!

Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#750 - 2012-10-06 00:45:12 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
why can't i eject when i have a weapon timer? thats was a often used strategy in low sec to safe your pod if you know that a instant locker is around you.

eject short before you explode and warp while everyone is pointing your ship.

edit: but ohterwise.. good stuff!


Pretty much the only reason I survived the first time I was ganked, yeah. Recently though, my ships have pretty much just exploded without much thought for the eject button. Speaking of which, it's an EJECT button; what did you think it was for?

On the other hand, as I said, going from mostly full shields to 0 Structure has happened almost instantly the last few times I've PvP'd. Mostly because they had my fit and exactly what was needed to destroy my ship in under 2 seconds.

Maybe a little more for the Scorp I lost awile back, and same for the Myrmi, but I was too focused on my ship melting and how exactly it was occuring to think about jumping. It was a learning experience. Smile Actually, all my recent PvP fights have been tests.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Pipa Porto
#751 - 2012-10-06 01:29:00 UTC
I'll ask again.

Dear CCP,

Is there a specific reason why you want to raise the safe hauling limit for Freighters to the neighborhood of 10b ISK?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#752 - 2012-10-06 03:24:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bart Starr
Tippia wrote:
Fortuna Cournot wrote:
Please tell me more, because i'm still to lazy to understand it... why does the Orca saves them ?
You're in your well-planned camp and suddenly things go south. Your pimped T3 is two pips away from destruction and a loss of one of your lvl V skills. So you store your stratcruiser in the nearby Orca, which instantly jumps through the gate into highsec (where the attackers can't go, both because they have aggression timers and maybe also because they're currently under GCC and would get CONCORDed), and since they were locked onto your ship, the pod you're in is free to just warp off.

End result: you are free to commit a bajillion-ISK, auto-SP losing ship into a fight without any risk of losing either it or your SP. If they try to go after the Orca, they take GCC and sentry fire (and the Orca just jumps through and saves itself while you warp off).

Quote:
Wouldn't it be better to flag the Orca for giving landing permission ?
That would be a good idea as well (not just “instead of”), but they don't want to try to copy flags like that at this stage because it risks opening up for new nasty ideas…


Still doesn't explain why boarding a new ship is prohibited, or why ejecting from a ship is prohibited.

I get it, you really hate Orca-swaps for some reason....

But if scooping a ship into an Orca during combat is abusive, why not just fix THAT problem directly?

This is like doing surgery with a chainsaw.

"In one very narrow situation, people evade SP loss by ejecting." So, NO MORE EJECTING!
"In another very narrow situation, people are hiding ships in Orcas by boarding new ships." NO MORE BOARDING!

Its a huge over-reaction because it eliminates legitimate tactics that revolve around ejection and boarding new ships mid combat.

Preventing someone from ejecting prevents people from escaping from their burning ships, forcing them to stay locked into their ship until the laggy explosion and causes many to be podded as a result. Ejecting gives losing pilots a chance to escape (and if gives the aggressors the chance to capture the ship.) Banning ejection/boarding for GCC players was a stupid move. Banning it for everyone - even dumber.

Preventing the boarding of a new ship prevents 'ninjas' or mission baiters from killing their prey.
The act of boarding a new ship was never 'an abuse', because as long as no ships are disappearing into an Orca to 'evade consequences of combat' - bringing a new ship to the battle is only raising the stakes for the ganker.

IE, Ninja is shot in an Ishkur, Ishkur can't crack a CNR's tank, so alt brings a Typhoon to the party. Ishkur jams MR to break the potential lock on the Tyhoon, bumps it, then jumps into the Typhoon and reestablishes tackle. Ishkur remains hanging in space. Stalemate ends, CNR dies.

Nothing that I've described here is abusive - its pretty much Ninja Ganking 101. Yet under Crimewatch 2.0, this tactic is arbitrarily made illegal, supposedly because of a fringe case that could be fixed without locking everyone into their ships for no good reason.

Fix Orca scooping, fine. Fix T3 SP ejection, fine. Leave ejection and ship boarding alone.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#753 - 2012-10-06 04:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bart Starr wrote:
Still doesn't explain why boarding a new ship is prohibited, or why ejecting from a ship is prohibited.
…aside from explaining the scenario (and any variations thereov) they want to avoid.

It's not just the Orca they're going after, so fixing that problem doesn't solve anything. It's the problem of saving your ship when you have already lost it. You can still eject and enter ships — you just have to deaggress to do so (and with some of the tweaks suggested earlier in the thread, it might even be possible let GTFO-ejections back in).
BOLEVINE
STEEL UNLIMITED
#754 - 2012-10-06 04:18:24 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
BOLEVINE wrote:


Yes lets make the game super safe for all you cute and cuddley little care bears so no bad people can bother you and steal your loot. These rules will simply kill this game as there will no more pvp in high sec. Low sec pvp will suck even worse then it does now. All that will be left is to join the "Borg like" environment in null where it take 0 skill to follow around a blob and press the button when told. 3 yrs invested in this game and now the care bears will finally completely ruin it. Game over...



Check killboards first before calling people carebears.

Actually, better still, don't call people carebears at all. I happen to be a pirate, that's what I like to do, but you will never see me talking trash about how ANYONE likes to play the game. Being a pirate is no more special than being a Miner or Trader or Battleship Maker. There is no "elite" play style. It's just regular people spending their money and enjoying the game.





ihcn wrote;

"Its not carebears themselves per se', its the nerfing of the sandbox that makes EVE great they continually call for that we hate.

So you have it backwards, PVP players don't have issues with passive carebears doing their thing and dealing with EVE life as it comes (although I agree life in hisec shouldn't be as profitable as it is today as more incentive to move to lo and null....but I digress...)

Its actually the activist carebears who's lobbying for nerfdom is futzing with enforcing THEIR vision on PVP players that is fail...

As I look at crimewatch changes that protect carebears from can/mission flippers now with global 'suspect' flagging and blob pwnage of flippers...it becomes more clear the road to nerfdom is being pursued by CCP, while pretending its still a 'sandbox'. i.e. They let you steal, but make it a non viable activity in practice by the pwnage that will come your way if you do it; illusion, form over function....we are a sandbox, but not REALLY...welcome to WoW behind the looking glass..."

I could nt have said it any better...
Fal Dara
Vortex Command Corporation
House Raiding Comms
#755 - 2012-10-06 04:34:20 UTC
About the NPC 15 minute timer ...

While i'm not going to lose any sleep over this ... it's only a problem because moduals stop after a disconnect.

Fix?

1. Make it so only offensive mods stop after a disconnect. Tanks and what ever dont.
.... 1a. if you're butthurt over this, make it so that if you logged off with tank mods active for PvP flags, the pvp timer will reset. (for when that carrier logoffskies with reppers going).
2. Make it so that when you accept a mission, the agent/mission/deadspace is given a 'pass' to this agression timer. You are, afterall, for the mostpart, going after pirates for a empire corporation, on their behalf, they have a budy in concord who will 'look past' this aggression, for the sake of ... blah blah.
.... 2a. butthurt? make it so if the mission is vs Empire factions (kill caldari, or amarr, etc) that this 'pass' is revoked (opposite for pirate faction missions)
3. All mods/drones stay active.
.... 3a this will mean a potential to perma-reset pvp timers, if some one was foolish enough to keep drones on a hard-target.
.... 3b. Means missioners will have to time their tanks to survive, or, god forbid, permatank.
... 3c. Cloaks stay active. cover your butt, but suffer through having the terible effects of fitting cloaks. makes this viable.

i dont know, i think mostly ... the npc timer is ... a good idea (and i am/was a hard core missioner, in fragile ships). 0.0 ratting and security can be frustratingly crappy for people because of log-off-jerks.

but missions.... MAY need an exception...

OR, revamp log-off so that mods stay active (so long as there is cap).

often, 5 minutes is enough to get EVE back after a crash... ISP crashes are a whole other issue... which is why leaving mods active is still a solution, because CCP can blame YOU for not having an acceptable fit/everything online ... not their dumb mechanic.

Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
#756 - 2012-10-06 04:49:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bart Starr
Tippia wrote:
Bart Starr wrote:
Still doesn't explain why boarding a new ship is prohibited, or why ejecting from a ship is prohibited.
…aside from explaining the scenario (and any variations thereov) they want to avoid.

It's not just the Orca they're going after, so fixing that problem doesn't solve anything. It's the problem of saving your ship when you have already lost it. You can still eject and enter ships — you just have to deaggress to do so (and with some of the tweaks suggested earlier in the thread, it might even be possible let GTFO-ejections back in).


Your scenario was the 'stuff the dying T3 into an Orca than escape to highsec' trick. Yes, got that.
But it all relies on Orcas. I fail to see how you can replicate the scenario you described without the Orca/carrier.

Second, I believe last year CCP disallowed Orcas from scooping ships that are targeted. They patched the Orca to disallow 'boarding' mid combat in highsec. Simply include carriers and introduce the patch in lowsec as well. It was mystifying why they only nerfed that particular ability in highsec last year when 'the scenario you described' was well known in LOW SEC at that point.

A dying ship shouldn't be able to instantly disappear from the field of battle while locked and scrammed.
Got it, and I agree. Low sec and high sec. So, fix the Orca so it can't eat engaged ships.

Lets pretend that the 'Orca scoop' has been dealt with, WITHOUT chainsawing ejection and reboarding ships.

You seem to imply that ejecting and boarding ships while in a combat situation can somehow 'save your ship when you already have lost it'. I'm just not seeing it. Switching ships can give you a 'new mount' - but it does nothing to prevent the old ship from being destroyed.

Saying that 'you can still switch ships, you just have to de-agress for 60 seconds' is a poor suggestion, because in the profession of mission runner baiting, allowing the target 60 seconds to warp off means 'goodbye CNR'. Your target has docked up.

Or maybe, just maybe they are trying to kill mission runner baiting in highsec as well.
After all, what LVL 4 mission runners need is even more protection, don't you think?

I mean, the carebear shot at a Vigil, so its 'not fair' for them to have to fight anything other than a Vigil without being given a 60 second window to dock up first - that your thinking right?? Eliminating the possibility of boarding a Hurricane, on the pretense of preventing the "abusive saving of a Vigil" is laughable. We lose Vigils all the time.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#757 - 2012-10-06 04:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bart Starr wrote:
Your scenario was the 'stuff the dying T3 into an Orca than escape to highsec' trick. Yes, got that.
But it all relies on Orcas. I fail to see how you can replicate the scenario you described without the Orca/carrier.
And that's just the point: remove the Orca and some other way will be found to replicate it, so “fixing” the Orca doesn't solve anything. Instead, they're going after the mechanic that's actually problematic: the ability to get a new ship out of [wherever] in the middle of a fight or to whisk one away when it's lost.

The ejection/boarding restrictions take care of all cases without having to code each and every one of them and adding more and more code as new variations are found. It takes care of the actual problem rather than uselessly trying to chase all unique and specific instances of it.

Quote:
Saying that 'you can still switch ships, you just have to de-agress for 60 seconds' is a poor suggestion, because in the profession of mission runner baiting, allowing the target 60 seconds to warp off means 'goodbye CNR'. Your target has docked up.
Tough. So figure out a way to bait him without shooting him until you've had the chance to change ships.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#758 - 2012-10-06 05:00:41 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:

Still doesn't explain why boarding a new ship is prohibited, or why ejecting from a ship is prohibited.

([b]Edit for space
)


There is no question that everything you talked about is a legitimate tactic within the current rules. The question: is this the way that the developers would like the game to be played. The answer, clearly, is no.

Some people enjoy preying on high-sec players. That's what makes Eve fun for them. They have developed elaborate strategies to not only grief and kill these players, but to do so with absolutely no risk to themselves. This has created an environment in which high sec players learn that their only recourse is to tolerate the griefing, ignore the humiliation, and wait for the offenders to get bored and go away.

CCP wants a game in which everyone engaged in PvP has the risk of losing their ship. Under the current rules this is not the case, but with these changes it will come closer to reality.

You will no longer be able to steal with impunity.
You will no longer be able to get agro in one ship, then change to another after the battle is joined.
You will no longer be able to use remote reps with immunity.
You will no longer be able to ignore the docking timers that everyone else has to operate under.
You will no longer be able to instantly escape webs, scrams, and neuts at will.

In short, you will have to risk your ship if you want to grief other people.

Does this kill PvP? Hardly. If anything it encourages it. Instead of training newer players to never, ever fight back because they CANNOT win, they will instead learn to evaluate the risk and potentially even plan for victory. It will still be very difficult for them. You will still have every advantage. But after this change an advantage is all you will have.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#759 - 2012-10-06 05:10:08 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
I'll ask again.

Dear CCP,

Is there a specific reason why you want to raise the safe hauling limit for Freighters to the neighborhood of 10b ISK?


The answer is self-evident.

Eve is a sandbox, not a slaughterhouse. Suicide killing in high sec should not be a career path, it should be a high cost / low return activity that no one engages in on a whim. And if it costs you ten billion isk to suicide gank a ship that's worth two billion, what of it? No one is forcing you to suicide gank anyone -- and your ability to do so as a career path is not an inherent right of the sandbox.
Pipa Porto
#760 - 2012-10-06 05:33:38 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
I'll ask again.

Dear CCP,

Is there a specific reason why you want to raise the safe hauling limit for Freighters to the neighborhood of 10b ISK?


The answer is self-evident.

Eve is a sandbox, not a slaughterhouse. Suicide killing in high sec should not be a career path, it should be a high cost / low return activity that no one engages in on a whim. And if it costs you ten billion isk to suicide gank a ship that's worth two billion, what of it? No one is forcing you to suicide gank anyone -- and your ability to do so as a career path is not an inherent right of the sandbox.


Ganking is only profitable when the victim makes it so. Ganking a Freighter right now costs about a half billion ISK and nets maybe 5m in salvage. If the Freighter pilot chooses to alter those numbers by filling it with more value that he can protect, why should he be safe?

Nobody's forcing you to carry more ISK in your Freighter than you can protect, so your ability to do so as a career path is not an inherent right of the sandbox. See, your silly argument works both ways.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto