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[Winter] New destroyers

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Luc Chastot
#581 - 2012-10-05 17:15:02 UTC
I guess after the changes, I'll use the utility high on the Gallente dessy for heat management.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Lauren Chev
Shadow Wolf Squadron
#582 - 2012-10-05 17:17:59 UTC
Missile destroyers shouldn't have race specific damage bonus, but rather a bonus to RoF (or something equally global), imo.

Also, name the Caldari destroyer "Peregrine". Sure, its not the fastest ship, but im sure it'll eat lots of smaller birds Blink

Finally - a reason to laugh about being a small-scale caldari pilot!
Looks good . Keep it up Big smile
CheekyBabey
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#583 - 2012-10-05 17:19:01 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
CheekyBabey wrote:

I agree which is why the should not have turret slots but instead utlity high slots.


Okay, but for what? Dampners are useless against most frigates because the engagement range is so small as is, and they lock so fast. Unlike the Amarr version, the Gallente don't have a real useful ewar against frigates.


True but it'll stop a bigger ship from being able to kill you before you get to kill the tackle.

However I agree sensor damps are still pretty pointless, I was more hoping the amarr would be ewar and gall should be drone DPS and other bonuses.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#584 - 2012-10-05 17:20:22 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
CheekyBabey wrote:

I agree which is why the should not have turret slots but instead utlity high slots.


Okay, but for what? Dampners are useless against most frigates because the engagement range is so small as is, and they lock so fast. Unlike the Amarr version, the Gallente don't have a real useful ewar against frigates. Throw more neuts on it and turn it into another amarr destroyer?

The other issue with MWD speed is how drones apply damage. It doesn't matter if they can CATCH a MWD frigate because as soon as they switch out of their mwd mode, the frigate moves on, and the drones sit there, then switch back to MWD and never apply their dps.

THIS is one of the major problems and why drones are broken and largely crap as a secondary weapon system. They are unreliable DPS against certain targets, they are destroyable and unreplaceable, and easily manipulated by the target.

How useful is a system of missiles where you only get 5, they can be destroyed and easily outrun.

Also, why no drone implants?

I don't know if you have looked at the link in my signature, but it addresses some ways to address the issues of drones.
an optimum range bonus to the drones would allow them to start applying there damage much sooner and keep it going sooner also.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#585 - 2012-10-05 17:22:49 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

I don't know if you have looked at the link in my signature, but it addresses some ways to address the issues of drones.
an optimum range bonus to the drones would allow them to start applying there damage much sooner and keep it going sooner also.


That would be great and all, but that isn't what they are proposing <.<
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#586 - 2012-10-05 17:27:35 UTC
Lauren Chev wrote:
Missile destroyers shouldn't have race specific damage bonus, but rather a bonus to RoF (or something equally global), imo.

Also, name the Caldari destroyer "Peregrine". Sure, its not the fastest ship, but im sure it'll eat lots of smaller birds Blink

Finally - a reason to laugh about being a small-scale caldari pilot!
Looks good . Keep it up Big smile


They should actually take the Caldari boat and make it the longer range boat with high alpha.

then, take the minmatar boat, make it faster, plus it has the mwd bonus and make it shorter range, but with a high rate of fire.

Now, you'll have one with high alpha long range, and one with high RoF brawler style.

This would be a distinction between the two ships that will allow them to get away from the specific damage bonuses.

Also, I would say that the minmatar ship would be higher dps due to the RoF bonus, but since the caldari would have greater range and higher alpha it would probably be a nice balancing design.

As it sits right now they're just way too similar.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#587 - 2012-10-05 17:28:04 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

I don't know if you have looked at the link in my signature, but it addresses some ways to address the issues of drones.
an optimum range bonus to the drones would allow them to start applying there damage much sooner and keep it going sooner also.


That would be great and all, but that isn't what they are proposing <.<

I understand that, and as it stands right now I can't see using this ship over the new Tristan.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
CheekyBabey
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#588 - 2012-10-05 17:28:57 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

I don't know if you have looked at the link in my signature, but it addresses some ways to address the issues of drones.
an optimum range bonus to the drones would allow them to start applying there damage much sooner and keep it going sooner also.


That would be great and all, but that isn't what they are proposing <.<


Don't get me wrong drones need a massive rework and your ideas I have read up on but I doubt CCP will be willing to take up such a huge task before this patch, however getting to get these ships right would be a great start :P

Also you spelt drone wrong in your sig, may want to fix that.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#589 - 2012-10-05 17:30:21 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

I don't know if you have looked at the link in my signature, but it addresses some ways to address the issues of drones.
an optimum range bonus to the drones would allow them to start applying there damage much sooner and keep it going sooner also.


The problem with higher optimal on the drones is it could push them out of smartbomb range.

This could essentially make smartbombs obsolete, or only effective by having a fleet member cross you in order to take out the drones on you.

That's not really a bad thing, but if you've got smartbombs on your own ship, then why would you need someone else to take out the drones around you?
Lili Lu
#590 - 2012-10-05 17:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Cheeky, Omnath, and Pink, not sure if you missed my post. But the mwd bonus in conjunction with an omnidirectional or even a drone scope rig might be a way to address the possible downside of the drone speed bonus. The drone speed increase though, if it does not cause a damage application problem that can't be overcome with the above, is in and of itself a welcome addition.

It could have gone either way though, either a speed bonus or a tracking/optimal bonus liek the tristan got. Both bonuses help address the drone damage application problems.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#591 - 2012-10-05 17:40:16 UTC
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

I don't know if you have looked at the link in my signature, but it addresses some ways to address the issues of drones.
an optimum range bonus to the drones would allow them to start applying there damage much sooner and keep it going sooner also.


The problem with higher optimal on the drones is it could push them out of smartbomb range.

This could essentially make smartbombs obsolete, or only effective by having a fleet member cross you in order to take out the drones on you.

That's not really a bad thing, but if you've got smartbombs on your own ship, then why would you need someone else to take out the drones around you?

The range increase will only push large T2 drones to the edge of large T2 smartbombs with Max skills though an omnidirectional will but it outside of it, they could not escape faction smart bombs without even with an omnidirectional tracking link. Small and medium are still in range of smart bombs.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#592 - 2012-10-05 17:41:56 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Cheeky, Omnath, and Pink, not sure if you missed my post. But the mwd bonus in conjunction with an omnidirectional or even a drone scope rig might be a way to address the possible downside of the drone speed bonus. The drone speed increase though, if it does not cause a damage application problem that can't be overcome with the above, is in and of itself a welcome addition.

It could have gone either way though, either a speed bonus or a tracking/optimal bonus liek the tristan got. Both bonuses help address the drone damage application problems.

I went on the test server and loaded a ship to the teeth with drone speed rigs and mods, far surpassing what the destroyer will provide and they were more than capable of hitting the target without over shooting

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Lili Lu
#593 - 2012-10-05 17:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
Cheeky, Omnath, and Pink, not sure if you missed my post. But the mwd bonus in conjunction with an omnidirectional or even a drone scope rig might be a way to address the possible downside of the drone speed bonus. The drone speed increase though, if it does not cause a damage application problem that can't be overcome with the above, is in and of itself a welcome addition.

It could have gone either way though, either a speed bonus or a tracking/optimal bonus liek the tristan got. Both bonuses help address the drone damage application problems.

I went on the test server and loaded a ship to the teeth with drone speed rigs and mods, far surpassing what the destroyer will provide and they were more than capable of hitting the target without over shooting

Was the target a fast moving tech I or tech II frig or destroyer though?

edit - the attempt to orbit problem?
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#594 - 2012-10-05 17:46:12 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Amarr:
  • Cap recharge bonus moved into the hull itself - thus capacitor recharge rate reduced from 370 to 275s
  • Role bonus changed to 25% MWD speed to drones


    • Have you checked that MWD speed when a drone navigation computer is also fit? Last I remember from Fozzie on the BSB podcast, Warriors weren't able to hit pods in those conditions because they'd kite out of range on each pass. That seems like a serious issue.

    Also MWD bonus won't be useful in the ships primary operational range of the small neuts/nos (12km), simply because drones can catch a target quickly in that range. It also doesn't appear to be all that useful for using web drones to help catch a ceptor either - the bonus does help the drones catch up to a ceptor (should put the SW-300 speed at around 4870 w/a navigation comp, or 3750 w/o) , but even with the drone webs the ceptor going in the speed ranges where this makes a difference will be faster than this desi can go. The desi shouldn't be able to get tackle. Finally - it doesn't help in other setups that may want to make use of larger drones, since 2xMed 1xSmll or 1 Large do less damage that 5 small. Overall I don't really see this bonus as being useful for the hull.

    Perhaps you could give it a 25% boost to neut amount? Though that would be making the sentinel even more obsolete...
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #595 - 2012-10-05 17:47:03 UTC
    Lili Lu wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Lili Lu wrote:
    Cheeky, Omnath, and Pink, not sure if you missed my post. But the mwd bonus in conjunction with an omnidirectional or even a drone scope rig might be a way to address the possible downside of the drone speed bonus. The drone speed increase though, if it does not cause a damage application problem that can't be overcome with the above, is in and of itself a welcome addition.

    It could have gone either way though, either a speed bonus or a tracking/optimal bonus liek the tristan got. Both bonuses help address the drone damage application problems.

    I went on the test server and loaded a ship to the teeth with drone speed rigs and mods, far surpassing what the destroyer will provide and they were more than capable of hitting the target without over shooting

    Was the target a fast moving tech I or tech II frig or destroyer though?

    edit - the attempt to orbit problem?

    No, I found some rats that were about 50k from me, and a stationary target as well. Not the same but I do think these will have a problem catching ships, as much as over burning and missing the target altogether.
    No problems orbiting

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Lauren Chev
    Shadow Wolf Squadron
    #596 - 2012-10-05 18:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lauren Chev
    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
    Lauren Chev wrote:
    Missile destroyers shouldn't have race specific damage bonus, but rather a bonus to RoF (or something equally global), imo.

    Also, name the Caldari destroyer "Peregrine". Sure, its not the fastest ship, but im sure it'll eat lots of smaller birds Blink

    Finally - a reason to laugh about being a small-scale caldari pilot!
    Looks good . Keep it up Big smile


    They should actually take the Caldari boat and make it the longer range boat with high alpha.

    then, take the minmatar boat, make it faster, plus it has the mwd bonus and make it shorter range, but with a high rate of fire.

    Now, you'll have one with high alpha long range, and one with high RoF brawler style.

    This would be a distinction between the two ships that will allow them to get away from the specific damage bonuses.

    Also, I would say that the minmatar ship would be higher dps due to the RoF bonus, but since the caldari would have greater range and higher alpha it would probably be a nice balancing design.

    As it sits right now they're just way too similar.

    Agree that they are similar. Would just be nice to not be predictable on the field and have something applied across all missile types.. and not necessarily dps. Just an affect. So if my Kin lights aren't working well, I don't get penalised further by switching out to (edit)Thm/Em/Exp, especially seeing as my dps is not being applied for a whole 10seconds...

    The role bonus of the amarr ship...... surely there's a better one in the bag? Laser tracking/range? Laser cap? Maybe 50% extra strength slave-chains...?What? Just seems tacked on, and something that can be easily absorbed in recharge time?

    I reckon the idea of having 35m3 drone bay for Gally is GREAT! This will allow younger players to do lvl2 missions faster, and for those saying "you should only have 25m3 to fit a flight of smalls only", here's a tip - don't use the remaining 10m3! That extra drone space will allow you (or others) to adjust if needed! I know Id rather have it and not use it, than not have it and need it!! Smile Plus, med EWAR drones usually have better affects than light counterparts....assuming they can catch their target (you'll have to be cunning there).

    Minmitar looks scary too. Maybe knock off a launcher slot or two hehehehehe Cool j/k
    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #597 - 2012-10-05 18:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
    Lauren Chev wrote:

    I reckon the idea of having 35m3 drone bay for Gally is GREAT! This will allow younger players to do lvl2 missions faster, and for those saying "you should only have 25m3 to fit a flight of smalls only", here's a tip - don't use the remaining 10m3! That extra drone space will allow you (or others) to adjust if needed! I know Id rather have it and not use it, than not have it and need it!! Smile Plus, med EWAR drones usually have better affects than light counterparts....assuming they can catch their target (you'll have to be cunning there).

    Minmitar looks scary too. Maybe knock off a launcher slot or two hehehehehe Cool j/k


    The complaint of the Gallente drones isn't the bay, it's the 35b/w.

    If I try to utilize that then i'll be fielding 2 meds and 3 lights.

    However, that's all I can hold in the drone bay, so I'm losing 2 light drone to battle frigs.

    The point is that odd bandwidths that don't match set numbers that we would typically use is pointless.

    However, a role bonus for this ship allowing it to field 2 more drones would be awesome.

    As far as the Amarr boat -

    Perhaps a role bonus that decreases cap usage of lasers, and then a per level RoF bonus.

    This gives it better dps through faster firing, then compensates for the added cap usage through the role bonus.

    So, basically what you get is

    Caldari - long range high alpha
    Minmatar - close range brawler with speed
    Amarr - high dps and tracking instant damage
    Gallente - drone focus with perhaps a +2 drones role bonus?


    Edit - apparently gallente has been changed to only be a 25b/w with 50 dronebay.
    However, if you give it a role bonus of +2 drones instead of hybrid optimal, then you can put it back at 35b/w and field 7 light drones.
    CheekyBabey
    Pator Tech School
    Minmatar Republic
    #598 - 2012-10-05 18:18:57 UTC
    Lauren Chev wrote:

    I reckon the idea of having 35m3 drone bay for Gally is GREAT! This will allow younger players to do lvl2 missions faster


    I and may other players would prefer not to have yet another gallente drone ship limited to PVE

    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:

    The complaint of the Gallente drones isn't the bay, it's the 35b/w.


    Misguided complain if I"m honest the drone bay and bw are fine the problem is the lack of focused role that would result in the ship becoming yet another PVE ship.
    Lauren Chev
    Shadow Wolf Squadron
    #599 - 2012-10-05 18:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lauren Chev
    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
    Lauren Chev wrote:

    I reckon the idea of having 35m3 drone bay for Gally is GREAT! This will allow younger players to do lvl2 missions faster, and for those saying "you should only have 25m3 to fit a flight of smalls only", here's a tip - don't use the remaining 10m3! That extra drone space will allow you (or others) to adjust if needed! I know Id rather have it and not use it, than not have it and need it!! Smile Plus, med EWAR drones usually have better affects than light counterparts....assuming they can catch their target (you'll have to be cunning there).

    Minmitar looks scary too. Maybe knock off a launcher slot or two hehehehehe Cool j/k


    The complaint of the Gallente drones isn't the bay, it's the 35b/w.

    If I try to utilize that then i'll be fielding 2 meds and 3 lights.

    However, that's all I can hold in the drone bay, so I'm losing 2 light drone to battle frigs.

    The point is that odd bandwidths that don't match set numbers that we would typically use is pointless.

    However, a role bonus for this ship allowing it to field 2 more drones would be awesome.


    Wow... Im not reading Dev's update post correctly. Maybe because its 4am here? lol
    Ignore Amarr gripe from last post. Just realised its been changed. Again, I reckon it should be more focused on laser buff, but MWD is good.

    Yeh, I wrote 35m3 meaning the bandwith, not drone hold. Ill blame that on the lack of sunlight too...
    I still don't understand your argument. Correct me if im wrong, but you don't need to field the required 35bw, do you? You can still use x5 lights, but you have the option to carry a second flight of potentially x2 med ewar/drp drones for anti-destroyer/slow-frig engagement? Sure, you cant replace the x2 meds because the drone hold is smaller than the bandwidth, but you're still given the option. If you decide to only use light drone, thats your choice. I don't see why the ship should be limited in bandwidth because the hold is different?


    "Caldari:
    Removed one high slot and launcher slot, gained one mid slot - thus layout now is 7 / 4 / 2, 7 launchers "

    Well that sucks.. I was looking forwrd to having x2 groups of 4 launchers....
    Hmmm........... maybe the Minmitar hull should lose a launcher after all........


    EDIT - Cheeky, I wasn't implying it should only be used for PvE. Its just options. I seriously don't see the downfall to having bandwidth greater than drone hold when the bandwidth covers the necessary amount to fill a required flight of optimum dps drones (in this case, 25bw is required for x5 lights, and people are getting 35bw).
    If its just the reason that the ship lacks focus, then sure. I don't know enough to argue, especially this time of day What?
    Lemme sleep on it and get back to ya'll o/
    HELLBOUNDMAN
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #600 - 2012-10-05 18:39:34 UTC
    Lauren Chev wrote:
    HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:
    Lauren Chev wrote:

    I reckon the idea of having 35m3 drone bay for Gally is GREAT! This will allow younger players to do lvl2 missions faster, and for those saying "you should only have 25m3 to fit a flight of smalls only", here's a tip - don't use the remaining 10m3! That extra drone space will allow you (or others) to adjust if needed! I know Id rather have it and not use it, than not have it and need it!! Smile Plus, med EWAR drones usually have better affects than light counterparts....assuming they can catch their target (you'll have to be cunning there).

    Minmitar looks scary too. Maybe knock off a launcher slot or two hehehehehe Cool j/k


    The complaint of the Gallente drones isn't the bay, it's the 35b/w.

    If I try to utilize that then i'll be fielding 2 meds and 3 lights.

    However, that's all I can hold in the drone bay, so I'm losing 2 light drone to battle frigs.

    The point is that odd bandwidths that don't match set numbers that we would typically use is pointless.

    However, a role bonus for this ship allowing it to field 2 more drones would be awesome.


    Wow... Im not reading Dev's update post correctly. Maybe because its 4am here? lol
    Ignore Amarr gripe from last post. Just realised its been changed. Again, I reckon it should be more focused on laser buff, but MWD is good.

    Yeh, I wrote 35m3 meaning the bandwith, not drone hold. Ill blame that on the lack of sunlight too...
    I still don't understand your argument. Correct me if im wrong, but you don't need to field the required 35bw, do you? You can still use x5 lights, but you have the option to carry a second flight of potentially x2 med ewar/drp drones for anti-destroyer/slow-frig engagement? Sure, you cant replace the x2 meds because the drone hold is smaller than the bandwidth, but you're still given the option. If you decide to only use light drone, thats your choice. I don't see why the ship should be limited in bandwidth because the hold is different?


    "Caldari:
    Removed one high slot and launcher slot, gained one mid slot - thus layout now is 7 / 4 / 2, 7 launchers "

    Well that sucks.. I was looking forwrd to having x2 groups of 4 launchers....
    Hmmm........... maybe the Minmitar hull should lose a launcher after all........


    EDIT - If its just the reason that the ship lacks focus, then sure. I don't know enough to argue, especially this time of day What?
    Lemme sleep on it and get back to ya'll o/


    Actually, the minmatar has always been 7 highs and 7 launchers.

    Really the only thing setting these 2 apart is that the caldari get and exp velocity bonus while the minmatar get a mwd bonus.

    I honestly feel that they should do what I'm suggesting and make the caldari a high alpha while the minmatar gets a RoF bonus and becomes a brawler.
    This would seperate the two from being so similar, while also making them able to use all damage types equally.