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Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

First post First post First post
Author
Jade Lynkinstorm
Crawlers In Space
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#641 - 2012-10-05 10:10:54 UTC
Greetings,

Thanks for all the work CCP Masterplan

But Im sure this has been brought up several times now. Still. More feedback is good feedback.


1) Why Didn't you guys take this chance to overhaul low sec engagment?

- Why have gates ( stations I can live with ) attack us on aggression? People should be aware that low sec is low sec, not Happy pony land where everything is safe.
- By still having gates attack ships, all that frigate changes means even less. People would love to use their frigates for low sec gangs, but they can't on gates.
- Why still incurr Security status penalties? Further comments on this below

2) Perhaps like said above, a time for overhauling security status could be now?

3 ) Theres little meaning or reason for a normal high sec dweller to come down to low sec, having more Planets with interesting resources only attracts cloaky haulers or the occassional newbie with a Mammoth.
These changes only make it more punishing for people to come down to low sec ( I mean, 15 min aggression log out timer for ratting, goodbye targets of opportunity).

Rats are not worth much, there's almost no high level mission hubs in low sec and PI alone won't cut it. Why do all these changes seem to kill even more Low sec ?

In a winter expansion targeted at overhauling frigates, still having in place a mechanism punishing the use of frigates is ridiculous.


Please reconsider taking another pass at some changes.

Please try to revive Low Sec instead of further neuting it into a barrenland filled with BLOBS.

It's not much to ask is it?

Also, in your chart, you mention Targetting assistance and Drone assistance -AGAINST- outlaws/suspects/criminals will give you a security loss. Is this right? If I shoot or deploy drones against an outlaw or criminal I get a security loss?

Thanks. And please reconsidering reviving Low Sec.
Sedilis
Lead Farmers
#642 - 2012-10-05 10:27:23 UTC
Thank you thank you thank you.

No more capitals logging off in sites when a new wormhole opens up to the system.

<3 you CCP
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#643 - 2012-10-05 10:36:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
This 15 minute NPC timer means death for any ratter who has an internet outage.
You can't balance a game around the assumption that people have awful ISPs because that only ever opens the door for new and fun exploits. If you have an outage, do what you would normally do: get back online ASAP.


"Play from the USA, UK or Germany or GTFO".

Sounds great, expecially for the majority of the worldwide population stuck with monopolist / bad technology nations.


(1) Yeah reverse that statement. You can't balance game based on everyone having perfect connections either.

(2) 15 minutes is probably too long a NPC timer especially if you are not warp disabled. Its not an attempted exploit unless yougain advantage over remaining logged on.

If you are NOT being attacked or targeted for 30 seconds then your ship beat the original NPC attack and could warp out if you were still connected. Its not a case of escape by plugging the plug unless its an environmental no warp zone (special site)

Idea So how about 30 seconds NPC timer that doesn't count down as long as you are being targeted/shot? That and a limited self-defense AI (reload & shoot back at anything that shoots your ship first) when disconnected or logged off?



(3) Yes that leaves a exploit situation where plug pulling is actually done to avoiding PVP when someone enters low sec, null or wh space and no safe haven (POS/station/etc) exists in system. But why key no escape timer to NPC fighting alone? Why not mining flag? Or sitting anywhere unsafe?

The player issue in this case is not your ship remaining in system during "legal" disconnect/logoff - but your ship sitting still at a vulnerable spot.

Idea Add automatic docking (user station/POS choice) or auto-pilot patrol a limited list of system safe points as default action on disconnect/logoff. No advantage will be gained over staying logged on but true disconnects or RL need to log off NOW will not result in a total give'me.

Obviously 30 second no NPC combat timer has to reached before auto-evade clicks on. Or at least the ability to warp away.
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#644 - 2012-10-05 10:42:51 UTC
When you log with aggression u do warp but you just dont disappear for the aggression timer. So you will still warp out of the mission you just wont disappear from space.
Pipa Porto
#645 - 2012-10-05 10:42:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Could I please get more clarification about the 15 mins NPC timer?

There are whole countries where your only choices are: analog modem or ADSL and there's just 1 large national ISP.

Those ISPs cyclically change the DHCP address of those contected (with a rate that some times seems every very few hours) with the effect those people get disconnected 5-6 times a day, with no prior warning.

Now you CCP come say all those players are boned and should just rat / do L4 missions in a disposable Drake?

Is the ship being always pinned in there for the whole duration or will it emergency warp (if not scrammed) like today?
Is it pinned and the modules also turned off? I can see the technological why of that, but that spells death to everything that is active tanked.

I just made myself a Vargur, shall I just dump it on the market before they tank to zero value?


From what's been presented, it's the same as the current 15m aggression timer (except that it can't be refreshed). If you can e-warp, you will e-warp. If you can't, you wont. Either way, your modules turn off after their cycle ends and you sit in space for 15m.


Also, I seem to remember hearing something a while ago about NPC scramming no longer stopping e-warp, but I can't commit to that, as I haven't tested it.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Dierdra Vaal
Interstellar Stargate Syndicate
#646 - 2012-10-05 11:05:46 UTC
Question:

At fanfest you guys said that ship killing (but not pod killing) in low sec would only drop your sec status to -5, not -10, and that you'd change high sec so that you can still go anywhere at -5, unlike the gradual system of exclusion that currently exists. Essentially, this would allow people to be low sec pirates without locking themselves out of high sec, provided they don't podkill.

Is this still happening? (please say yes!)

Veto #205

Director Emeritus at EVE University

CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman

Evesterdam organiser and CSM Vote Match founder

Co-Author of the Galactic Party Planning Guide

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#647 - 2012-10-05 11:09:13 UTC
Cerulean Ice wrote:
Why do people equate ejecting with saving the pod? It's pretty easy to save your pod when your ship explodes if you know what you're doing, and it's pretty easy to lose your pod after ejecting if you don't know what you're doing. Or you'll just lose it either way, because bubbles <3


Yeah like when you're in your pod and someone puts an interdiction bubble on you, it's super easy to get away... Stupid Roll
Pipa Porto
#648 - 2012-10-05 11:10:16 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Cerulean Ice wrote:
Why do people equate ejecting with saving the pod? It's pretty easy to save your pod when your ship explodes if you know what you're doing, and it's pretty easy to lose your pod after ejecting if you don't know what you're doing. Or you'll just lose it either way, because bubbles <3


Yeah like when you're in your pod and someone puts an interdiction bubble on you, it's super easy to get away... Stupid Roll


How does ejecting help you escape from bubbles?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#649 - 2012-10-05 11:13:41 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Cerulean Ice wrote:
Why do people equate ejecting with saving the pod? It's pretty easy to save your pod when your ship explodes if you know what you're doing, and it's pretty easy to lose your pod after ejecting if you don't know what you're doing. Or you'll just lose it either way, because bubbles <3


Yeah like when you're in your pod and someone puts an interdiction bubble on you, it's super easy to get away... Stupid Roll


How does ejecting help you escape from bubbles?


You can eject before the bubble goes up and warp?
Anessa Smith
Interference Inc
#650 - 2012-10-05 11:15:39 UTC
Current system does not allow you to pod player with GCC in high-sec without concord interdiction. It also leads to security status hit.
Question: How is it going to work with CW2? will players be allowed to legally attack and kill pods with C/S flags? Will it result in security status reduction?
Adhar Khorin
Projected Effects Industries
#651 - 2012-10-05 11:16:52 UTC
Ok, my initial review - cross posted from my blog.

Overall very very cool.


  1. It's not all that easy to pick up a suspect flag without also incurring a security status hit. Stealing from a container/wreck will do it, and assisting another player in a Limited Engagement. CCP might consider adding ninja-salvaging added to this list, because those wrecks are yellow until they're abandoned.
  2. Assisting an Outlaw in low-sec doesn't incur any penalty. In looking at the legality progression, it seems it might incur a suspect flag - that would provide a boost to the vigilante gang's legal target sphere. Aiding and abetting, and all that.
  3. The ship/capsule difference is the difference between property crime and personal crime (civil/criminal) - I'm sure the law enforcement types out there can steer me straight on this one, but it does explain the difference in legality status (suspect vs. criminal) and the magnitude of the sec status hit. I'm not sure what that says about CONCORD's regard for the hapless crew on all of those whacked ships, though.


Thanks for the good work CCP!
Proddy Scun
Doomheim
#652 - 2012-10-05 11:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
Katarina Reid wrote:
When you log with aggression u do warp but you just dont disappear for the aggression timer. So you will still warp out of the mission you just wont disappear from space.



oh so you read it as no change.

I took it as remains in current space location due the comments about ship destruction under NPC flags. But I can see now that might mean probing and destruction by PVP.

Still pretty annoying flags given the NPC/PVP flags stay with you for 15 minutes -- even if you won (finished) or escaped prior combat.

Now its 15 minutes of enforced idleness to be safe from probes...even if severe storms or its now time to go to work. Can't really mine because rats might attack even in hi sec.

15 minute PVP flag alone wouldn't be quite so burdensome in most system. although if you can evade for 6-10 minutes you can probably evade indefinitely...unless that 15 minutes is for really slow combat probe operator or badly organized fleet slowly flooding system.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#653 - 2012-10-05 11:19:42 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Jeas Imerius wrote:
I like how this sounds so far! I have an idea of how the new 1v1 system could work though..

Call it Dueling:

  • Right click players portrait or ship and click 'Challenge player to Duel' (must be in a ship and in space).
  • A window pops up were both parties either accept or decline. 'Insert Name has challenged you to a Duel, do you wish to defend your honor?'
  • If both accept, a 10 second timer begins during which time both players assume their positions (take 10 paces).
  • After the countdown they are free to fire on each other without incurring any flags.
  • Once a ship is destroyed the duel is over.

  • Big smile

    Stop reading my email!




    Also... insert the ability to place bets on who wins, even be able to invite spectaters who can gamble on the outcome. please. Please. Pretty please!
    Rek Seven
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #654 - 2012-10-05 11:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
    Spugg Galdon wrote:
    CCP Masterplan wrote:
    Jeas Imerius wrote:
    I like how this sounds so far! I have an idea of how the new 1v1 system could work though..

    Call it Dueling:

  • Right click players portrait or ship and click 'Challenge player to Duel' (must be in a ship and in space).
  • A window pops up were both parties either accept or decline. 'Insert Name has challenged you to a Duel, do you wish to defend your honor?'
  • If both accept, a 10 second timer begins during which time both players assume their positions (take 10 paces).
  • After the countdown they are free to fire on each other without incurring any flags.
  • Once a ship is destroyed the duel is over.

  • Big smile

    Stop reading my email!




    Also... insert the ability to place bets on who wins, even be able to invite spectaters who can gamble on the outcome. please. Please. Pretty please!


    Maybe a robotic arm could extend from your ship and slap the other ship with a dueling glove. Smile
    Proddy Scun
    Doomheim
    #655 - 2012-10-05 11:27:51 UTC
    Adhar Khorin wrote:
    Ok, my initial review - cross posted from my blog.

    Overall very very cool.


    1. It's not all that easy to pick up a suspect flag without also incurring a security status hit. Stealing from a container/wreck will do it, and assisting another player in a Limited Engagement. CCP might consider adding ninja-salvaging added to this list, because those wrecks are yellow until they're abandoned.
    2. Assisting an Outlaw in low-sec doesn't incur any penalty. In looking at the legality progression, it seems it might incur a suspect flag - that would provide a boost to the vigilante gang's legal target sphere. Aiding and abetting, and all that.
    3. The ship/capsule difference is the difference between property crime and personal crime (civil/criminal) - I'm sure the law enforcement types out there can steer me straight on this one, but it does explain the difference in legality status (suspect vs. criminal) and the magnitude of the sec status hit. I'm not sure what that says about CONCORD's regard for the hapless crew on all of those whacked ships, though.


    Thanks for the good work CCP!


    Not sure on the rationale for no penalty for assisting outlaws in low sec...but I am betting CCP is basing it on the Bart Simpson principle "In low sec there are no CONCORD sensors to see you doing it. Only black boxes to squeal out ship/pod death data."
    Lord Okinaba
    Aliastra
    #656 - 2012-10-05 11:40:07 UTC
    Jade Lynkinstorm wrote:
    Greetings,

    Thanks for all the work CCP Masterplan

    But Im sure this has been brought up several times now. Still. More feedback is good feedback.


    1) Why Didn't you guys take this chance to overhaul low sec engagment?

    - Why have gates ( stations I can live with ) attack us on aggression? People should be aware that low sec is low sec, not Happy pony land where everything is safe.
    - By still having gates attack ships, all that frigate changes means even less. People would love to use their frigates for low sec gangs, but they can't on gates.
    - Why still incurr Security status penalties? Further comments on this below




    Low sec means just that, Low security. Not no security.

    If you want to freely attack targets, move to Nul sec, No security.
    Pipa Porto
    #657 - 2012-10-05 11:42:32 UTC
    Proddy Scun wrote:
    Now its 15 minutes of enforced idleness to be safe from probes...even if severe storms or its now time to go to work. Can't really mine because rats might attack even in hi sec.


    Dock Up
    POS Up
    Fit a Cloak and Minimize EVE for 15m

    EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

    -RubyPorto

    Matt Grav
    Wrath of the Pea
    #658 - 2012-10-05 11:42:44 UTC
    Having thought about these changes I think that on the whole they are going to be good for Eve.

    So as a T3 pilot I need to de-aggress for 60 seconds before I can eject. That seems fine to me. If I'm attacked and want to avoid the skill penalty then I just need to plan for the ejection Blink rather than use it at the last minute to escape.

    I have a concern over the use of the suspect flag in HiSec for newer players though. Lower skill level pilots have always been able to be selective in whom they give aggression rights too by choosing who to steal from. A 1 month old pilot may be happen to give a 6 month old pilot the option to fight but not want to go near a 2 year+ player.
    So I do think that this might limit the PVP possibilities for them. Of course it may turn out that lots of other new players get flagged as suspects and the newer players can just hunt each other, but being open to attack and podding from all those older players feels like it may be bad for the newer players.

    Personally now I've got a few more skills trained I'll be happy to see who wants to come after me.

    Podding in HiSec will probably reduce the number of players willing to even get involved in a fight, as many HiSec dwellers will want to protect their learning and missioning implants. I think if the pods were still more protected in HiSec then we may actually have seen a much larger increase in HiSec pvp.
    For me it will just mean 24 hrs planning before changing between pvp & pve.

    The only thing that I think might be bad news is the use of the suspect flag with sec hits in LowSec. If the flag is global does that mean that a pirate (or gang) can use an alt sitting at a safe spot to get themselves flagged as suspects out of sight of the gate guns and then as long as they maintain that suspect flag just sit at the gates attacking anything that comes through without the gate guns ever getting involved?
    Its sounds to me as if the gate guns need to open fire every time the suspect flag is reset by attacking someone. But at the moment the gate guns seem to be linked to the sec hit and not the suspect flagging.

    Quote:
    I think someone else asked this earlier, but I haven't seen the answer:

    If you shoot at someone at a gate in lowsec, warp off grid before he dies (point is held by your cohort), and you warp back on grid, and then proceed to shoot the original target some more, do you :

    a) Get another sec status hit, and gain new sentry aggro?
    b) Get no further sec hit, sentries ignore you?
    c) Get no further sec hit, sentries shoot at you anyway because they witnessed a sec status type action?

    Answering my own question with a guess from reading other responses, but the real answer is important since sec status hits are now front-loaded.

    I think the answer is C. B would be exploitable and A is a double-whammy on sec status hits.


    This ^ is what I mean.

    As I do like to fly around LowSec solo, the gate guns being on my side has always made a big difference to what I can do and I would be sad if a well tanked ship just needed to hold me in place while his friends attack me, warp off to get rid of the gate gun aggression and are then able to fly back in and freely attack me with the gate guns firing at them. That just seems like a massive nerf to the LowSec gate guns.

    Now if I was stupid enough to fire at all of them and get into multiple Limited Engagements with them, well then that would be different.
    Proddy Scun
    Doomheim
    #659 - 2012-10-05 11:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Proddy Scun
    Dierdra Vaal wrote:
    Question:

    At fanfest you guys said that ship killing (but not pod killing) in low sec would only drop your sec status to -5, not -10, and that you'd change high sec so that you can still go anywhere at -5, unlike the gradual system of exclusion that currently exists. Essentially, this would allow people to be low sec pirates without locking themselves out of high sec, provided they don't podkill.

    Is this still happening? (please say yes!)


    Wow! Did that mean a -5 cap on how far sec status could drop no matter how many ships you killed? That would be huge change. For some reason I was thinking ships kills dropped you a fixed amount (-3?) but were cumulative and that was to remain true.

    Although why protect pods specially? Ships tend to cost more than Implants and clone unless toon is an alt of rich toon. In which case implant loss is an equalizer with other new toons and a well understood risk.

    I did see mention of -5 in high sec...but I thought that blog was rounding or dropping fractions on secstatus to allow more players to stay just on border line for travel in some hi sec systems. Whereas at -5 you are outlaw everywhere now.

    Frankly if the change is that big - its probably time to go whole hog and totally remove sec status and CONCORD. Force players to join up with decent sized corps and alliances from day 1. Null sec everywhere!

    Actually I would bet if your changes are made that you would soon have little reason to visit hi sec. the very removal of penalty would mean most people would stop worrying about hi sec access and choose to remain in lo sec - then real trade hubs etc would start popping up in lo sec to service the growing numbers.
    Naibasak
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #660 - 2012-10-05 11:51:10 UTC
    Will this mean no way of getting 1v1 frigate fights outside stations in highsec while waiting for trade orders to go through unless you’re in the same corp?

    If so, that's kinda dull.