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Dev blog: Introducing the new and improved Crimewatch

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Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#281 - 2012-10-04 18:51:06 UTC
Steijn wrote:
Quote:
NPC Flag: This flag is activated when a player uses offensive modules against an NPC (or vice-versa). Having this flag will prevent a ship from being removed from space if the pilot logs off. This flag functions in all areas of space.


thats just shafted anyone who does missions and not PVP because they have a weak internet connection.

It's fair because COMBAT is COMBAT, no matter against whom.
The PvPer could have a weak internet connection too, but of course,
mission runners want a special piece of the cake everybody gets ...
Malcom Dax
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#282 - 2012-10-04 18:51:28 UTC
Nice blog. I have one situation that I'm curious about regarding containers and fleets when someone disconnects or leaves fleet (apologies if it has already come up - I don't have time to read the whole thread).

The entry for container access legality says

Quote:
The existing rules for what constitutes 'legal access' to a container are the same (I am the owner of the container, I am in the corp registered to the container, I am in the fleet registered to the container, The container is Abandoned)


According to this, if I am in a fleet with someone who is not in my corp (but maybe in my alliance) and they drop a can I can access it. If they then leave fleet I cannot access the can - if I do I get a suspect flag and can be shot by everyone. As I understand it, the access is based on the current situation of the owner of the can, not the situation when the can was placed in space.

If the above is the case, this creates an issue where someone in fleet (who is not a member of my corp) can drop a can for me to open and then leave fleet for whatever reason. I then take from the can because it has been dropped for me and I can now get shot by everyone. Under the old system I could only be shot by the owner and their corp. This could be creatively misused to trick people into flagging themselves.

In addition it creates an issue for mining fleets when someone drops a can and leaves or disconnects. The hauler/orca can no longer grab the ore in the can without being a target for everyone. Under the old system this was far less of an issue (I'm thinking alliance mining ops here) but under the new system it is.

As a potential solution to this, could the 'legal access' rules be changed to reflect the situation of the owner at the time the can is created, rather than their ongoing situation. Or make alliance members have legal access too, but this seems like a weaker solution.

.
Kmelx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2012-10-04 18:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Kmelx
MIrple wrote:
You do realize he will still have a 14 minutes left on his suspect flag where anyone can shoot him right.

Also if is his a Pirate and this is my opinion is if he is an outlaw in that system so say a -2 in a 1.0 systeme he shouldnt be able to dock in stations. This should also go the same with standings why are people with low standings allowed to dock in hostile stations.


So you bounce safes for a bit, hell you can even go for a nice fly around high sec, go on a tour and see the sights.

Bottom line is if they commit a crime in low sec and jump to high sec concord should blap them for it, the same as they do now, it shouldn't be a possible survival strategy for pirates to run away and hide in high sec. People commiting criminal acts in low security space shouldn't be able to run and hide in supposedly high sec space, its completley backwards.
Piquet Raddei
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#284 - 2012-10-04 18:53:20 UTC
Some nice stuff here, but the DEV's still aren't answering some questions that keep popping up frequently. I'm sorry but I can't trust the words of other players who only learned about this on the same day I did...


WHAT HAPPENS IF WE'RE RATTING/MISSIONING AND OUR "SOCKET" GETS CLOSED? Happens all the time - but being stuck under heavy gunfire for 15 minutes will make for some pretty irritated players who log back in to their pods...

IF A SHOOTS B AND I AID B BY SHOOTING A (non-fleet/corp; just a good citizen passing by), DOES D-Z GET TO SHOOT AT ME NOW?

There's good ideas here - I like that it makes things a bit more dangerous for griefers who go after newbs/little guys. There's just more questions than answers right now...
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#285 - 2012-10-04 18:54:13 UTC
CCP Masterplan wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
Sounds like a great solution, but i got a question.

If I in lowsec attacks a player, who is an illegal target for me, and I destroy his ship I will get Suspect flag and the Sentry guns will shoot me during the combat. But if I warps out and warps back again (while still under the S flag) will they resume attacking me?

No. They'll always shoot Criminals on-sight for as long as the Criminal has the flag, but for other acts they will only shoot you for as long as you stay in their vicinity after whatever action gave you a Suspect flag.


I like this. In terms of "EVE is a simulation", it's like the Sentry Guns are content to drive off suspects.

Fix POSes.  Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#286 - 2012-10-04 18:54:18 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
So, how does this affect the common scenario addressed several weeks ago?

Random Hauler gets exploded on a high-sec gate. Wreck is yellow to everyone but the victim.

Player A: Loots the yellow wreck on a highsec jump gate.

What exactly happens?

Player A now gets a suspect flag.
1. Do gate guns open fire? (Y/N?)

Now, suppose Player B ('vigilante') attacks Player A.

2. Player A is allowed to shoot back without penalty, correct? (pretty sure the answer is yes....)
Does this create some kind of strange 'one-on-one' flag which is exactly what Crimewatch was supposed to eliminate?
Really, player B should be getting a 'suspect' flag as well if the system was to be consistent with the stated goal of simplifying webs of flags. I suppose that goal is secondary to simply making highsec as safe as possible. Roll

Now, suppose Player C comes along, doesn't want to engage the suspect, but RR's Player B, the vigilante.

3. Is Player A, (suspect) still allowed to engage the remote repairer (C)? Or is the RRing player allowed to participate in PVP while still under Concord protection? (ie PVP without risk)


From all the answers I've read, it sounds like Player C becomes a Suspect for repping someone in a LE (Player B).

So that makes Player A and Player C both Suspects for different reasons, and Player B is only PVP and LE flagged against Player A.

I don't think it really spirals out of control too much, since it replaces a lot of the "rep this guy, wait till he shoots, now u can shoot back, then get repped" chains, replacing almost all of it with Suspect flags for the RR part.

The confusing part still comes back to: If I'm a suspect, I can shoot back at anyone that shot at me... and the fight outlasts 15min suspect flag somehow, so I have a LE and PVP flag remaining against the people shooting at me. And now only they can shoot me and I can shoot them. Anyone else that interferes goes suspect. It's less confusing than the current system, but still has its little twists.

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
Amelya Laurann
Undefined Probabilities
#287 - 2012-10-04 18:54:43 UTC
After reading the entire Devblog on Crimewatch, I wanted to share my concerns about the new mechanics that were described.

I don't know if it was intentionnal, but ejecting from your ship in specific occasions was a really good strategy to save your pod and, as noted in the title, subsystems skills when about to explode in a T3 ship.

I heard that there was some exploit with ejects, if it was a way to fix that, it was actually not a so great fix.

Now instant lockers can even predict when you will be in your pod too!

I may actually get more corpses for my giant secure container to add to my collection... Not that it's the best way I thought of ever being able to gather some more easely...
Steijn
Quay Industries
#288 - 2012-10-04 18:54:56 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Steijn wrote:
Quote:
NPC Flag: This flag is activated when a player uses offensive modules against an NPC (or vice-versa). Having this flag will prevent a ship from being removed from space if the pilot logs off. This flag functions in all areas of space.


thats just shafted anyone who does missions and not PVP because they have a weak internet connection.

It's fair because COMBAT is COMBAT, no matter against whom.
The PvPer could have a weak internet connection too, but of course,
mission runners want a special piece of the cake everybody gets ...


So what about dc's caused by the server etc. that miraculously arent logged?
VonKolroth
Anarchist's Anonymous
#289 - 2012-10-04 18:57:01 UTC  |  Edited by: VonKolroth
Cassius Longinus wrote:

3. Probably, boosting a fleet (on grid or off) should count as remote assistance.


Oh yes.

Sent from my Gallente Erabus Titan on -FA- SRP
Skogen Gump
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#290 - 2012-10-04 18:57:21 UTC
I love these changes!

Only thing I want to see fixed is theNPC timer, 15 minutes is a bit too long. Also why is this change in? What was wrong with it, before?

Also as the ER guys have asked, please don't ship this without a safe way to have a mutual engagement!

Otherwise, seriously sweet work guy!
Alli Othman
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#291 - 2012-10-04 18:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Alli Othman
CCP Masterplan wrote:

That's the "Sec hit = Yes" and "Incurring Sec-status penalty" entries interact. If a sentry sees you do something bad, it will shoot you until you go away. After that, it will only shoot you again if you do something else bad, or are a Criminal

But above you said that gateguns would not fire on logi for outlaws, but repping an outlaw incurs a sec hit.

nvm, just noticed the sec hit has been removed in lowsec
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#292 - 2012-10-04 18:58:16 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Aethlyn wrote:
Really like the proposed changes, although I'd like to see some more details on the LE/assistance stuff. If you help the criminal, you get a suspect or criminal flag, okay. But why should you become attackable by everyone (not just the other party in the engagement) by helping, for example, a newbie that is being attacked/ganked by pirates?


If the pirate attacks the newbie (which is an illegal target for the pirate) the pirate will become flagged. Which means you are allowed to attack the pirate or help the newbie without being flagged yourself. However if you attack the pirate (or rep the newbie) the pirate may attack you due to the LE, but you will still not be attackable by everyone else.


The tricky part is: you can help the Newbie by shooting the Criminal. You can't help the newbie by repping him. (Well, you could...but then you'll pick up a Suspect flag and the Newbie--who's really a ganker, can shoot you.

Victim: "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed! Rep me!"
Kindly EVE-Uni person starts repping the Victim.
>Boom< Kindly EVE-Uni person finds self in a pod.

Fix POSes.  Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).
Antihrist Pripravnik
Cultural Enrichment and Synergy of Diversity
Stain Neurodiverse Democracy
#293 - 2012-10-04 18:58:24 UTC
@CCP:

I hope that you will fix the lag created when losing a ship. If you don't already know (highly doubt it since all of the petitions players made), there is a 1-5 seconds lag sometimes (well, 50% of the time in my case) that is strictly client side and client produced - my hardware is slightly above today's average, internet connection is stable 16MB/s:2MB/s cable and my OS and drivers are always up to date (I'm a programmer, they have to be up to date for my work). That ship destruction lag is the reason why I always eject a moment before my ship blows up. It's a tool that allows me to have any control over the client in those couple of seconds and allows me to apply a workaround for a bug that has been in the game for years.

If you are already making it impossible to eject during a fight, which is generally a positive change, fixing this bug should be your highest priority. I (and many other customers that experience the same issue), will not be very happy for losing a pod because of that lag-bug without any possibility to apply a workaround.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#294 - 2012-10-04 19:00:02 UTC

Ok, here's a good question ::

Are the penalties for sec status (destruction of ship, pod, etc) being changed at all?

Where I am.
Sulindra
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2012-10-04 19:01:11 UTC
Malcom Dax wrote:
Or make alliance members have legal access too\


This! How many times have I been doing something with alliance, and someone drops a can, and logs, and now I have to cart my ass over to the can instead of being able to grab it with a tractor beam. PITA.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#296 - 2012-10-04 19:02:12 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
If me and a corpmate are roaming in low sec and we are both outlaws, is it still possible for people to attack one of us without getting 'aggression' to the corp of the person they are attacking? It's really annoying because a small gang of little ships that cannot survive combat under sentry guns can basically be picked apart by fast lockers and cannot respond at all, with no risk at all to the neutrals who do it. For example if we're in two cruisers and one gets tackled by a condor, all he can do is go back to the gate and jump out. The other cruiser will die if it does anything, basically, and all this is no risk to the neutral guy in the frigate (unless he's really bad).


Could i get a response to this question since its something we run into quite often and its really hard to deal with.

Also i love these changes.. I might just walk down to CCP hq, break in and start hugging people.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

John Henke
Decompression Services
#297 - 2012-10-04 19:04:32 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Steijn wrote:
Quote:
NPC Flag: This flag is activated when a player uses offensive modules against an NPC (or vice-versa). Having this flag will prevent a ship from being removed from space if the pilot logs off. This flag functions in all areas of space.


thats just shafted anyone who does missions and not PVP because they have a weak internet connection.

It's fair because COMBAT is COMBAT, no matter against whom.
The PvPer could have a weak internet connection too, but of course,
mission runners want a special piece of the cake everybody gets ...


But in a PvP-Situation i consider my ship lost before i undock. If i am lucky or know, what i am doing, i will return with it and consider as a win.
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#298 - 2012-10-04 19:05:10 UTC
Alli Othman wrote:
CCP Masterplan wrote:

That's the "Sec hit = Yes" and "Incurring Sec-status penalty" entries interact. If a sentry sees you do something bad, it will shoot you until you go away. After that, it will only shoot you again if you do something else bad, or are a Criminal

But above you said that gateguns would not fire on logi for outlaws, but repping an outlaw incurs a sec hit.


Outlaw != Criminal

You can RR an outlaw (-10) that has done nothing wrong. However, if they have a criminal or suspect flag you take a hit and are going to get shot at.

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#299 - 2012-10-04 19:07:42 UTC
Well, the null sec zealots get to rejoice a little more as the path of the utter destruction of high sec just got a little shorter.
Let us combine 2 features by separate dev's and see what happens in missions.

My opposition to the AI changes are all over the forums, but this NPC timer is wonderful, just wonderful.
The null sec zealots say "man up, fly a non-drone boat".

OK, let's say I am in Worlds Collide and I am in a Vargur.
I still need small drones because my BS guns can't track the frigs that are scramming me in the room.
Now, the new AI states that the NPC's will go after objects of similar sigs, so that means the frigs will be going after small drones in a big big way.
So once all the small drones are dead, my gunboat Vargur is in a really bad way.
I can't warp out of the mission, and with the new 15 minute timer, my active-tanked Vargur is auto-dead if I log off to be able to get new drones.

Only way the Vargur survives is if it can sit in the mission for 15 minutes tanking the site, then logging off, or waiting until downtime.

But no, these two new "improvements" by separate dev's will not have wipe out high sec income at all.

Just fly a missile Tengu...oh yeah.forgot, the mission Tengu is having is DPS reduced by 20% by a 3rd dev.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#300 - 2012-10-04 19:07:55 UTC
Bart Starr wrote:
Player A now gets a suspect flag.
1. Do gate guns open fire? (Y/N?)
No. Theft does not incur a sec status loss, and therefore doesn't trigger the sentries.

Quote:
Now, suppose Player B ('vigilante') attacks Player A.
2. Player A is allowed to shoot back without penalty, correct? (pretty sure the answer is yes....)
Does this create some kind of strange 'one-on-one' flag which is exactly what Crimewatch was supposed to eliminate?
Yes, it creates a limited engagement, which is a single connection between the two that gets around the CW1.0 mess by being non-transferable.

Quote:
Now, suppose Player C comes along, doesn't want to engage the suspect, but RR's Player B, the vigilante.
3. Is Player A, (suspect) still allowed to engage the remote repairer (C)? Or is the RRing player allowed to participate in PVP while still under Concord protection? (ie PVP without risk)
Anyone aiding A will be committing the crime of aiding a suspect and will become a suspect. Anyone aiding B will be committing the crime of butting in on a LE and will become a suspect. As such, there is no need for this whole “keeping track of who shot who and when and where and why”.

In this case, player C will be a free-for-all target — A can engage him at will without further repercussions just like everyone else in the universe.