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[Winter] New destroyers

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#101 - 2012-09-28 18:50:03 UTC
Grog Drinker wrote:
The amarr needs another mid for a cap booster if it plans on actually powering any nuets. The range bonus really isn't that spectacular on it.


The fact that a cap booster is required should sort of suggest that something is broken, surely. Also cap booster would pretty much mean the cap bonus is wasted/bad.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#102 - 2012-09-28 18:51:14 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Grog Drinker wrote:
The amarr needs another mid for a cap booster if it plans on actually powering any nuets. The range bonus really isn't that spectacular on it.


The fact that a cap booster is required should sort of suggest that something is broken, surely. Also cap booster would pretty much mean the cap bonus is wasted/bad.


Or use some vamps ah!! i know shocking isn't it? Shocked

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Grog Drinker
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2012-09-28 18:59:17 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

Or use some vamps ah!! i know shocking isn't it? Shocked


What do you plan on using these vamps on? Your ideal targets are frigs that start with less cap than you before you begin nueting. Nueting them dry also dries you up negating any cap advantage you would have.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-09-28 18:59:33 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Grog Drinker wrote:
The amarr needs another mid for a cap booster if it plans on actually powering any nuets. The range bonus really isn't that spectacular on it.


The fact that a cap booster is required should sort of suggest that something is broken, surely. Also cap booster would pretty much mean the cap bonus is wasted/bad.


Or use some vamps ah!! i know shocking isn't it? Shocked

Did nobody notice the 25% cap regen role bonus on the amarr ship?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Aaron Greil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2012-09-28 19:00:01 UTC
The bonuses laid out by these new ships are really ugly. They slap the traditional bonus styles in the face.

I get why the amarr one gets 3 turrets and 3 missiles, but I'm getting tired of all the new ships being the same. Give it all missiles, or all lasers. Also, it has a bigger drone bay than the gallente one? wtf? Then there is that neut bonus..... Please no. Neut bonus are a tech 2 bonus, and it should stay that way. It also overlaps with the amarr's EAF. If you insist on EWAR then do tracking disruptors, to make it follow in line with the arbitrator. I would much much much prefer a laser damage bonus, maybe marauder style. 3 turrets with 100% damage each, so it could still use those highs for (unbonused) neuts. Another thing to consider would also be a drone speed bonus.

I'd really like to ask, what is the design scheme for amarr? I see drones added to everything, but short range missiles are supposed to be amarr's second weapons platform. Are you phasing them out? If not, then give amarr players low-end missile boats. 3 missile hardpoints on one or two ships is not enough for a player to take the effort to train them.

The caldari one is the only one that really looks any good. The minmatar one looks too powerful, and with serious overlap with interceptors. It looks seriously outside of design philosophy of destroyers. I could see a static speed bonus, (in line with minmatar) but a MWD sig reduction? Like interceptors? Like AFs? No good.

Finally the gallente one..... Needs bigger drone bay, and maybe five more bandwidth. I'm not sure how 3 mediums compare to 5 lights, but gallente should pretty much always have drone superiority. Also I realize the enyo and iskur get optimal range, but its falloff that falls in line with gallente. This ship should have one more turret, and a 37.5% (or maybe 50%) bonus to falloff.

Seriously disappointed, especially with the amarr one.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#106 - 2012-09-28 19:03:43 UTC
Grog Drinker wrote:
Harvey James wrote:

Or use some vamps ah!! i know shocking isn't it? Shocked


What do you plan on using these vamps on? Your ideal targets are frigs that start with less cap than you before you begin nueting. Nueting them dry also dries you up negating any cap advantage you would have.


In which case you will only need to use a neut or two wont you? :)

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#107 - 2012-09-28 19:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
These ships are underwhelming and I'm not sure why anyone would use any of them.

Edit:
Frigate sized missiles are bad. All of them. There are a few ships that can put them to use but the missiles are always the bad spot of the ship. For a practical example just look at the interdictors. The only one that can fit a full rack of guns is widely regarded as the best, so much so that they sell for 25% more than the other three. Meanwhile the launcher based ones are rarely even found even bothering to fit weapons.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#108 - 2012-09-28 19:07:42 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Amarr

Ship bonuses:
+10% to drone damage and hitpoint per level
+20% bonus to energy vampire and energy neutralizer transfer range per level
Role bonus:
+25% to ship capacitor recharge rate
Slot layout: 6 H, 2 M, 4 L, 3 turrets, 3 launchers
Fittings: 55 PWG, 150 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 750 / 950 / 850
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 600 / 370s / 1.62s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235 / 2.75 / 1700000 / 4.71s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 39km / 525 / 6
Sensor strength: 10 radar
Signature radius: 66
Cargo capacity: 300


I have to admit that I don't like the role bonus on this ship, especially when compared to the Caldari destroyer. Also, the fittings seem very stingy for what is unquestionably the most lackluster of the new destroyers. Also, energy neutralizer transfer? Does this mean that it gets an ET bonus as well?

Quote:

Caldari

Ship bonuses:
+5% to rocket and light missile kinetic damage per level
+10% to rocket and light missile explosion velocity per level
Role bonus:
+50% to rocket and light missile velocity
Slot layout: 8 H, 3 M, 2 L, 8 launchers
Fittings: 45 PWG, 210 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 950 / 750 / 750
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 500 / 320s / 1.56s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 250 / 2.5 / 1900000 / 4.89s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 45km / 475 / 7
Sensor strength: 12 gravimetric
Signature radius: 69
Cargo capacity: 450


I have very high confidence that this ship is going to be mindbogglingly overpowered with standard missiles.

Quote:

Gallente

Ship bonuses:
+10% to drone damage and HP per level
+5% to small hybrid turret damage per level
Role bonus:
+50% small hybrid turret optimal range
Slot layout: 6 H, 3 M, 3 L, 4 turrets
Fittings: 55 PWG, 150 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 800 / 850 / 950
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 550 / 350s / 1.57s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 240 / 2.45 / 1800000 / 4.46s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 42km / 500 / 7
Sensor strength: 11 magnetometric
Signature radius: 72
Cargo capacity: 350


What are the two utility highs expected to be used for? It seems like the fittings are too low for them to be properly useful on a blaster ship, and as a rail ship they're definitely not useful. Either way, the other ships are so powerful that there's no way I'll be using this ship at all.

Quote:

Ship bonuses:
+5% to rocket and light missile explosion damage per level
15% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty per level
Role bonus:
+50% to rocket and light missile velocity
Slot layout: 7 H, 3 M, 3 L, 7 launchers
Fittings: 48 PWG, 200 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 850 / 800 / 800
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 450 / 290s / 1.55s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 255 / 2.89 / 1600000 / 4.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 36km / 550 / 6
Sensor strength: 9 ladar
Signature radius: 60
Cargo capacity: 400


Uuuummmmm.... that's interesting.

Quote:

* All light missile launcher fittings: CPU reduced by 4, PWG reduced by 2
* Drone Damage Amplifier I: CPU increased from 27 to 30, drone damage increased from 15 to 16%
* Drone Damage Amplifier II: CPU reduced from 32 to 30, drone damage increased from 19 to 23%


I'm really skeptical of the light missile changes here, especially in relation to ships. Make sure that you take a look at the Kestrel and Condor. I doubt the difference will matter to the Caracal.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#109 - 2012-09-28 19:09:42 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Gallente - kill the hybrid damage bonus. Give it a hybrid tracking bonus instead. Give it a fifth turret slot (4 * 1.25 = 5 anyways). It's CPU is too weak to consider drone upgrades in those two spare highs anyways.


Hmmm interesting, that's one way of putting it - it negates tracking issues with rails and give the boat some love. We'll have another math run at this after the week-end. Keep the constructive comments coming people.

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaainz
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#110 - 2012-09-28 19:13:50 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Drone damage projection is actually really really bad if the target isn't webbed and/or scrambled. They do no damage and they get instapopped.

That is true for Hobgoblins, but not Warriors or (to some degree) Hornets.



Er, yes it is. They get some shots on the target, then they lag behind and get instapopped. For a drone destroyer I'd like to see very fast drones with high tracking that can do their orbit thing properly on actual moving targets.

Sure am looking forward to docking up after every fight to buy more drones (f yeah gallente).


They tried to make faster drones with high tracking, but in actual use, the drones kept overshooting the target, then MWDing back, overshooting, MWDing back, overshooting...

You get the idea -- if they get any faster than they already are, they never shoot at all, because they never come out of the pursuit mode.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#111 - 2012-09-28 19:13:54 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Gallente - kill the hybrid damage bonus. Give it a hybrid tracking bonus instead. Give it a fifth turret slot (4 * 1.25 = 5 anyways). It's CPU is too weak to consider drone upgrades in those two spare highs anyways.


Hmmm interesting, that's one way of putting it - it negates tracking issues with rails and give the boat some love. We'll have another math run at this after the week-end. Keep the constructive comments coming people.

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaainz


make it a drone tracking bonus too like tristan has please

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-09-28 19:17:42 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Gallente - kill the hybrid damage bonus. Give it a hybrid tracking bonus instead. Give it a fifth turret slot (4 * 1.25 = 5 anyways). It's CPU is too weak to consider drone upgrades in those two spare highs anyways.


Hmmm interesting, that's one way of putting it - it negates tracking issues with rails and give the boat some love. We'll have another math run at this after the week-end. Keep the constructive comments coming people.

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaainz

Gallente already has a hybrid destroyer, there is no need to make a second half-assed(pardon the language)hybrid drone ship. And with the poor slot layout it really is not that good.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#113 - 2012-09-28 19:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Slightly away from the thread topic I know, but if you're explicitly incentivising rails on the gallente hull with that optimal bonus, can you at least remove that same optimal bonus from the Catalyst and switch it for something that will make it into a proper blaster boat?

Seriously, a +50% falloff role bonus on the Catalyst (and maybe the thrasher too for class symmetry, giving us 2 snipers and 2 close-in dogfighters) instead of optimal would be a much better fit and would neatly mirror the Cormorant's double-optimal bonuses.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#114 - 2012-09-28 19:22:47 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Drone damage projection is actually really really bad if the target isn't webbed and/or scrambled. They do no damage and they get instapopped.

That is true for Hobgoblins, but not Warriors or (to some degree) Hornets.



Er, yes it is. They get some shots on the target, then they lag behind and get instapopped. For a drone destroyer I'd like to see very fast drones with high tracking that can do their orbit thing properly on actual moving targets.

Sure am looking forward to docking up after every fight to buy more drones (f yeah gallente).


They tried to make faster drones with high tracking, but in actual use, the drones kept overshooting the target, then MWDing back, overshooting, MWDing back, overshooting...

You get the idea -- if they get any faster than they already are, they never shoot at all, because they never come out of the pursuit mode.


So that's it? They just give up and drones are bad forever.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#115 - 2012-09-28 19:27:14 UTC
higher orbit velocity higher tracking better AI to keep better trans and better EHP would all help to make drone boats worth using more

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#116 - 2012-09-28 19:27:45 UTC
HazeInADaze wrote:
Amarr hits with the power of 6 weapon mounts. Gallente hit with the power of 5 weapon mounts with range bonus (hybrid only) Amarr still hold a cap bonus and a nuet bonus over gals. At face value this seems unbalanced.


Oh, come on: you can't talk about how the Amarr gets six turret slots and then in the same breath talk about how the Amarr gets a neut bonus. Those neuts will use up at least two and probably three of those six high slots.

This whole thread is kind of ridiculous. If you take every comment that says "X is overpowered" and cancel it out with some other post that says "X is useless and weak" the entire thread would vanish. It's no wonder CCP ignores 90% of player input.
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#117 - 2012-09-28 19:27:55 UTC  |  Edited by: LtCol Laurentius
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • CALDARI DESTROYER:

    • Missiles, missiles, missiles, missiles, that's what this hull is all about. It spams missiles a quite a long range, and boasts improved explosion velocity to catch those pesky annoying little orbiting frigates.

    Slot layout: 8 H, 3 M, 2 L, 8 launchers
    Fittings: 45 PWG, 210 CPU

  • MODULE CHANGES:

    • Balancing these ships made us realize some further tweaks were needed on some modules to make these destroyers, and as an extend, some other ships / setups more useful.

    * All light missile launcher fittings: CPU reduced by 4, PWG reduced by 2


Ahem. Even with a reduced PG on the missile launchers, a destroyer pilot with maxed out fitting skills will have only 5,85 PG left after fitting 8 light launchers... So no speedmod. Or tank. Intentional?
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#118 - 2012-09-28 19:29:01 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Ship bonuses:
+5% to rocket and light missile kinetic damage per level


I thought the Devs were stepping away from damage specific bonuses on hulls?

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Steelshine
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#119 - 2012-09-28 19:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Steelshine
I'm Down wrote:
MIrple wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, this puts the new Caldari Missile destroyer in the 200 - 210 DPS at 60+ km range

Does this not negate everything you have already said about HML's, range and damage projection considering this is following the current trends and not the new path you guys were trying to lay down?


Think these ships are meant to operate with precisions what would the range be with this type of ammo fitted?


No, Light missiles are getting a boost to explosive velocity already this patch, and then this ship gets an added boost to hitting small fast targets

And i was wrong, it hits up to 260 dps at 57km w/o rigs/TCs

Ironically, this thing post changes is going to come awfully close to the drake in both dps and range with far less training time


I bet it'll have the same EHP too.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#120 - 2012-09-28 19:33:29 UTC
now thats how you build and rebalance cal ships however weont the mattar have a hugh advantage through all the other ship being the fastest base and having bonus to mwd ?