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[Winter] Changes to NPC AI

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CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#21 - 2012-09-20 15:07:41 UTC
Rutger Janssen wrote:
Quote:
and got some of our QA and Bug Hunters to hammer through missions

So that's why bug reports are seemingly not processed anymore?

I guess the change is gonna make things more "interesting" for grouped players; non-drone solo boats won't notice a change I imagine?

This change is gonna suck for (nullsec) miners, can't have 1 player tank(in a hulk) the belts rats anymore and have everyone else fly hulks and haulers.

DG fleet staging point is gonna be a lot harder I imagine with the torpedo, all participating ships need to be able to take a hit from it?


Null sec miners are indeed going to have to find a new way to deal with the threat of belt rats.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#22 - 2012-09-20 15:09:28 UTC
You and Fozzie keep your streak of awesome changes for the winter patch. /highfive

❤️️💛💚💙💜
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#23 - 2012-09-20 15:10:45 UTC
Tanaka Aiko wrote:
is the long term goal having less redboxes but more powerfull ships like incursions and sleepers ?

I would really like that, it's a pain killing all these little things who loot nothing and have no chance killing us, and I don't even talk about thinking of salvaging these...

When you kill a sleeper frigate you don't have the impression of losing your time, cause this thing hurt, have lots of scamble, neut or web so it's real dangerous, but it does also loot not bad.
a nullsec frigate however... it may scramble and need to be killed quickly in this case, but you two shot it, and it loot nothing. so you only have the impression of losing your time.


Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#24 - 2012-09-20 15:14:06 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
You and Fozzie keep your streak of awesome changes for the winter patch. /highfive


/highfive back! Winter should be a damn good time!

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Adan Natrier
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-09-20 15:24:59 UTC
In principle, I'm all for making pve in eve not be basically awful, and this is a (tiny) step in the right direction that's quite encouraging.

But -

Quote:

Q) Will NPC's kill my drones?
A) Yes, but they don't hate them nearly as much as sleepers. I ran 9 level 4 missions and lost 2 drones. It does mean you need to pay more attention though. We can adjust their hatred of drones though which is why we are asking for feedback when this hits a test server.


I hope you're prepared to find out the primary motivation in flying drone ships for a lot of people is to be doing missions while afk, like they were bots. Are CCP prepared to make improvements to the game over objections from people like this now, or will you cave after 'feedback'? Because I could probably say a few things about barges.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#26 - 2012-09-20 15:33:56 UTC
Adan Natrier wrote:
In principle, I'm all for making pve in eve not be basically awful, and this is a (tiny) step in the right direction that's quite encouraging.

But -

Quote:

Q) Will NPC's kill my drones?
A) Yes, but they don't hate them nearly as much as sleepers. I ran 9 level 4 missions and lost 2 drones. It does mean you need to pay more attention though. We can adjust their hatred of drones though which is why we are asking for feedback when this hits a test server.


I hope you're prepared to find out the primary motivation in flying drone ships for a lot of people is to be doing missions while afk, like they were bots. Are CCP prepared to make improvements to the game over objections from people like this now, or will you cave after 'feedback'? Because I could probably say a few things about barges.


You will notice a while ago we posted that sitting AFK in a PLEX 24/7 is considered an exploit. So I think that should answer that.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#27 - 2012-09-20 15:35:16 UTC
Taking a break from answering questions to participate in this event on Duality: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155467
I highly recommend you all come join us!
I will be back after that to answer more questions.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#28 - 2012-09-20 16:02:35 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:


Null sec miners are indeed going to have to find a new way to deal with the threat of belt rats.



You mean... like... Kill them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6MlHxAzLXA

Where I am.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#29 - 2012-09-20 16:27:43 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


Null sec miners are indeed going to have to find a new way to deal with the threat of belt rats.



You mean... like... Kill them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6MlHxAzLXA


yea, i don't understand the issue here, just got a 2nd account / corpmate to kill them, end of story.

and if they pop too often for you to handle, then go back to low or high.
Whisperen
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2012-09-20 16:28:35 UTC
Awesome Job a much needed change.
Agaetis Byrjun Endalaust
#31 - 2012-09-20 18:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Agaetis Byrjun Endalaust
EDIT: moved to dev blog discussion thread

__________________________ just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not after you
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#32 - 2012-09-20 18:47:19 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:


Null sec miners are indeed going to have to find a new way to deal with the threat of belt rats.



You mean... like... Kill them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6MlHxAzLXA



Crazy idea I know.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-09-20 19:27:30 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Tanaka Aiko wrote:
is the long term goal having less redboxes but more powerfull ships like incursions and sleepers ?

I would really like that, it's a pain killing all these little things who loot nothing and have no chance killing us, and I don't even talk about thinking of salvaging these...

When you kill a sleeper frigate you don't have the impression of losing your time, cause this thing hurt, have lots of scamble, neut or web so it's real dangerous, but it does also loot not bad.
a nullsec frigate however... it may scramble and need to be killed quickly in this case, but you two shot it, and it loot nothing. so you only have the impression of losing your time.


Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


YES IVE BEEN WAITING 5 years for someone to say that. Someone at CCP was always to scared to follow though. Don't let me down now!

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Melina Lin
Universal Frog
#34 - 2012-09-20 19:50:34 UTC
We need a better seeded market on Duality, if we are supposed to test this.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#35 - 2012-09-20 20:15:33 UTC
I like where this is going... it might even get to the point where one might consider killing a few red boxes once in a while
sooooo... was thinking, when you decrease the number of red boxes eventually... could the amount of sec status gained for killing a strong single red box battleship be increased a lot? Pirate

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#36 - 2012-09-20 20:17:17 UTC
Melina Lin wrote:
We need a better seeded market on Duality, if we are supposed to test this.


I know. Right now it is setup for testing the frigates and destroyers so most of the stuff is not seeded. :(

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#37 - 2012-09-20 20:18:06 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
I like where this is going... it might even get to the point where one might consider killing a few red boxes once in a while
sooooo... was thinking, when you decrease the number of red boxes eventually... could the amount of sec status gained for killing a strong single red box battleship be increased a lot? Pirate


When we eventually get there then yes I hope so.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Gisander
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#38 - 2012-09-20 21:56:45 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Tanaka Aiko wrote:
is the long term goal having less redboxes but more powerfull ships like incursions and sleepers ?

I would really like that, it's a pain killing all these little things who loot nothing and have no chance killing us, and I don't even talk about thinking of salvaging these...

When you kill a sleeper frigate you don't have the impression of losing your time, cause this thing hurt, have lots of scamble, neut or web so it's real dangerous, but it does also loot not bad.
a nullsec frigate however... it may scramble and need to be killed quickly in this case, but you two shot it, and it loot nothing. so you only have the impression of losing your time.


Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


Actual Feedback:
You are my new favourite CCP Employee for saying that. I don't care that you do it in small steps. I don't care that some people now actually need to pay attention during combat. This rocks. I tried a few missions and this is a step in the right direction.

Random Future dreams:
I want to see NPC's warp away when they are damaged, forcing you to tackle them. I want to see NPC's switch laser crystals when they can't reach their optimals because you are faster. I want to see NPC's that can actually see that they are losing, and brake off the fight all together after a while (unless they are defending something worth dying over).

I would love to see the navy's actually send out NPC fleets that use the actual gates to patrol the FW systems and eventually run into an enemy NPC fleet... or even get up in Sansha's face... or NPC pirate fleets that force structures into reinforced mode, warp off, and return later to actually finish the job... unless the players defend of course.

But I also want to see NPC's (rarely, and randomly) make mistakes, or try daring things, they should be able to surprise you once in a while.

Ah, and randomised NPC and environment setups every time you run a mission would certainly spice up the re-playability of missions (and stop people from looking up every mission beforehand).

On account of power. NPC's that share the same hulls with players should only be slightly less powerful than the capsuleers (on the same page as a player that has skills trained to 3 or something like that). A T1 capsuleer cruiser should not be able to handle tanking 5 NPC t1 cruisers simultaneously.

Lastly I would love to see (rare) NPC's in non-combat roles. Like Mining NPC's that warp to a belt, mine, and warp back to the station to actually sell their ore. Or transport NPC's that take actual transport contracts and physically move the goods trough high-sec. Or maybe even trading NPC's that bring stuff from places where there is a surplus to places where there is scarcity.

NPC's should represent all the "non-capsuleer piloted ships", but at the moment they don't really do that.

*Sigh* all future dreams... but I love the fact that the first steps towards this have been taken.
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#39 - 2012-09-20 22:01:06 UTC
Gisander wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Tanaka Aiko wrote:
is the long term goal having less redboxes but more powerfull ships like incursions and sleepers ?

I would really like that, it's a pain killing all these little things who loot nothing and have no chance killing us, and I don't even talk about thinking of salvaging these...

When you kill a sleeper frigate you don't have the impression of losing your time, cause this thing hurt, have lots of scamble, neut or web so it's real dangerous, but it does also loot not bad.
a nullsec frigate however... it may scramble and need to be killed quickly in this case, but you two shot it, and it loot nothing. so you only have the impression of losing your time.


Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


Actual Feedback:
You are my new favourite CCP Employee for saying that. I don't care that you do it in small steps. I don't care that some people now actually need to pay attention during combat. This rocks. I tried a few missions and this is a step in the right direction.

Random Future dreams:
I want to see NPC's warp away when they are damaged, forcing you to tackle them. I want to see NPC's switch laser crystals when they can't reach their optimals because you are faster. I want to see NPC's that can actually see that they are losing, and brake off the fight all together after a while (unless they are defending something worth dying over).

I would love to see the navy's actually send out NPC fleets that use the actual gates to patrol the FW systems and eventually run into an enemy NPC fleet... or even get up in Sansha's face... or NPC pirate fleets that force structures into reinforced mode, warp off, and return later to actually finish the job... unless the players defend of course.

But I also want to see NPC's (rarely, and randomly) make mistakes, or try daring things, they should be able to surprise you once in a while.

Ah, and randomised NPC and environment setups every time you run a mission would certainly spice up the re-playability of missions (and stop people from looking up every mission beforehand).

On account of power. NPC's that share the same hulls with players should only be slightly less powerful than the capsuleers (on the same page as a player that has skills trained to 3 or something like that). A T1 capsuleer cruiser should not be able to handle tanking 5 NPC t1 cruisers simultaneously.

Lastly I would love to see (rare) NPC's in non-combat roles. Like Mining NPC's that warp to a belt, mine, and warp back to the station to actually sell their ore. Or transport NPC's that take actual transport contracts and physically move the goods trough high-sec. Or maybe even trading NPC's that bring stuff from places where there is a surplus to places where there is scarcity.

NPC's should represent all the "non-capsuleer piloted ships", but at the moment they don't really do that.

*Sigh* all future dreams... but I love the fact that the first steps towards this have been taken.


Man, we share so much of the same dream. If your mission is to go kill a specific person and he is losing, he should indeed try to warp away and you should have to try and keep him on the field. If he gets away, well something.

All of that is really good ideas and I can tell you we do think alike.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#40 - 2012-09-20 22:05:01 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Tanaka Aiko wrote:
is the long term goal having less redboxes but more powerfull ships like incursions and sleepers ?

I would really like that, it's a pain killing all these little things who loot nothing and have no chance killing us, and I don't even talk about thinking of salvaging these...

When you kill a sleeper frigate you don't have the impression of losing your time, cause this thing hurt, have lots of scamble, neut or web so it's real dangerous, but it does also loot not bad.
a nullsec frigate however... it may scramble and need to be killed quickly in this case, but you two shot it, and it loot nothing. so you only have the impression of losing your time.


Our end goal is to have PvE and PvP be similar enough that you bring the same fits to both and that yes, there will be far fewer red boxes and a more enjoyable experience killing them.


will NPC damage be adjusted - both spectrum (all rats going full spectrum) and amount?

active tanks in pvp = sure death for most ships.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.