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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#2161 - 2011-10-15 15:18:21 UTC
The 7 titans Red Alliance just lost are a lie. It is not possible. With current supercapital EHP they all would have been able to log off and survive the 15 minute aggression timer.

Also it is not possible for a force to be able field enough supercapitals to counter a member of the DRF. Just cant be done.

Oh wait those titans were dying in under 90 seconds each? How could that be? And oh wait, if another powerhouse alliance just fields supercapitals against supercapitals they don't have to worry about balancing them against subcapitals like hurricanes?

Yeah the problem with supercapitals must be the EHP, log off timers, fighters and bombers not that Goonswarm doesn't want to have to put their own supercapitals and capitals on field.
wanking monkey girl
Doomheim
#2162 - 2011-10-15 15:18:51 UTC  |  Edited by: wanking monkey girl
so what is the count his week 10 titans 7 sc lost
even the non sov holders have super fleet and we will see them clash from time to time and fleets are lost.
soon the time of supers will end and the time of the super massive subcap blob will rule eve again to the exceptions of goons and mittans
The Economist
Logically Consistent
#2163 - 2011-10-15 15:58:37 UTC
Good changes:

ECM Burst fix (always assumed this was a bug anyway)
Siege Module changes
DD Change
Logoff Timer

All long overdue and genuinely good ideas.

Bad Changes:

Fighter change
HP nerf
Removal of normal drone bays
SC drone bay proposal

Bad for many reasons elaborated pretty succinctly in this thread.
Oljud Zork
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2164 - 2011-10-15 17:18:41 UTC
wanking monkey girl wrote:
so what is the count his week 10 titans 7 sc lost
even the non sov holders have super fleet and we will see them clash from time to time and fleets are lost.
soon the time of supers will end and the time of the super massive subcap blob will rule eve again to the exceptions of goons and mittans


Nuff said

http://tinyurl.com/4yg9wyo

Battle summary containing seven destroyed titans... Lol
Tore Vest
#2165 - 2011-10-15 17:31:22 UTC
Oljud Zork wrote:
wanking monkey girl wrote:
so what is the count his week 10 titans 7 sc lost
even the non sov holders have super fleet and we will see them clash from time to time and fleets are lost.
soon the time of supers will end and the time of the super massive subcap blob will rule eve again to the exceptions of goons and mittans


Nuff said

http://tinyurl.com/4yg9wyo

Battle summary containing seven destroyed titans... Lol


Good job Init P


No troll.
ilmon
Legio Noviomagum
#2166 - 2011-10-15 17:38:11 UTC
i can agree on almost all changes except the dronebay size change as you should be able to carry 2 full sets and have some spares so you ar enot gimped right away after losing 1 fighter or fb
FHM
Doomheim
#2167 - 2011-10-15 17:40:22 UTC
wanking monkey girl wrote:
FHM you have no idea what will happen after this nurf you are holding to the idea even with the said changes that they will be nothing but the odd ship you see from time to time that will kill all the pos mods sov mods and so on.

what about that the only safe place to have them will be low sec give the ecm mod will get them out of trouble is something happens

you also can't grasp the idea that you buy a ship you need to move it 4 cap jumps to the your home system you think you need to have a full support fleet to move 1 ship 4 jumps and to have a fleet at every point you are not being realistic about any of the suggestions coming forth.

you said you want to have small alliance move to 0.0 and take space from alliance with large super cap fleets at the moment
they have the fleets but they never started out with them every alliance holding space on a large scale have a sub cap fleet that know how to fight and will not just be using the 1 fleet comp but several,he power blocks have large amount of players backing them from several alliances if you think its possible for 1 alliance just starting out in eve to take space from one of the big players then you need to think again after the nurf you may see some change in the way 0.0 is structured but on the most part it will be the same setup.

old eve players that have invested a massive amount of time in to eve deserve some reward from the game not just a kick down from new payers and the people thinking its unfair they can't afford and use some ship types this is just not about supers but also in general.

FHM you can troll all you want


lets try and and salvage the thread for suggestions


ships costing so much in both isk and skill time ccp think about rewarding the hard work of you loyal eve fans and addicts

How to fix a titan by making them remote links stop working on them.
getting impunity for ewar means it should not get any form of help from remote links like tracking and sebo.

nurf changes
hp hit great but not the hel
DD fine
agro timer great

sc
let them have 20 fighter bombers and 20 fighters and a small drone bay with about 500m3 this will cut
if you go ahead with the changes listed then turn them in to advanced carrier and let them dock at lest their going to be used and made after the nurf.

as many have pointed out with the agro timer you will see many more die in the weeks and month that follow..

but also fix the self destruct add so ships in combat can not selfdestruck.

on a side note super carriers in combat cannot refill on stranded drones lock the function with the agro timer.
solo super carrier moving about will be able to deafened itself for a limited amount of time

IF the planed changes are introduced allow them to dock and turn the super carriers in to advanced carriers.
LET advanced carriers DOCK



It is not only the small and new alliances even quite some big and old alliances cannot stand against the might of a super capital BLOB. My alliance can be 2 years older than say WN. and we have 400 active people at any time but we dont have the 30 Trilion ISK income a week or month like a small group of alliances has there for we cannot play this game so you are basicaly saying 99% of eve population should just leave the game so that 1% can do whatever they do.

I see no FUN in sitting in a ship that is un killable..and that there is noting that can stand against me that just does not interest me. You played your games using cheats and its only way you get by and at the moment having a super capital is like cheating it gives you unbreakable advantage.

Only way to balance the game where EXPERIENCE, TACTICS and FLEET COMPOSITION actually matter again it to nerf SUPER CAPITALS to their primary and main role as SUPER CAPITAL AND CAPITAL killers and only way to do that is to take away their ability to do damage to SUB CAPITAL ships.
FHM
Doomheim
#2168 - 2011-10-15 17:52:27 UTC
BRICKS4BALLS wrote:
"No that is exactly what needs to happen if you are 2 stupid to go and do something SOLO whit a FLEET SUPPORT ship whitout sub capital backup you deserve to die. The time when you did that and then got caught and log-offed and survived is over."

This is what some muppet wrote in response to my post, to stupid to actually understand my post it seems.

You say on one hand that if use a ship designed for fleet support solo then u deserve to die, well I agree, if you die, then u deserve it. Risk vs reward as always plays an important part in the game.

So if your saying this, then why do we need the nerf??

Answer, we dont, at least not to the extent that it will be implemented, what we perhaps need is more risk for the reward.

If you take away all the reward, nobody will risk their ships.




Again stupid and non valid argument why we shouldn't nerf them. As long as there is no way to counter them other than having the greater number of super capitals than your opponent on the field they are broken and need to be balanced.
It's stupid to have 1 thing in game that can dominate all. Now ill just stack 1000 of those and ffs... Your logic is stupid.

1) Understand that super capitals are not SOLO ships
2) Once you understand they are not solo ships understand that by that they dont need anti sub capital support
3) Once you understand 2) you know they have anti capital and super capital ability
4) Once you understand 1) 2) and 3) you will understand that they depend on sub capital support

END OF STORY

BLOB warfare is the result of this NERF. Meaning Super Capitals on field can establish an unbrakable cap transfer and remote repair chain that no sub capital fleet can brake whit its DPS. And now these ships can also output the DPS 100x bigger than the entire output of any sub capital fleet.

This is stupid. I understand you are MAD about you ship getting nerfed but BLOB warfare need to end either that or it will be the end of the GAME as it is. Because there is no fun for me to get 500 of my allies to go fight our enemy just to see them bring 150 super capitals and wipe the floor whit my fleet. Next time i will bring 1000 ships and they will bring 150 super capitals and my client will crash leaving maybe 100 of my allies online and barely active and again super capital fleet wins.

The fleet fights should happen on sub capital lvl, where super capitals assist the sub capital fleet by removing enemy logistic carriers of the field, reparing our sov infrastructure and guarding our main command ship being the Titan.

If super capitals remain as they are then there is really no need for sub capital classes other than t1 frigs for lighting cynos and no point of sub capital powers to fight against super capitals so no point in playing the game meaning that 99% of eve population should just leave the game.

Your logic is flawed.
FHM
Doomheim
#2169 - 2011-10-15 17:55:00 UTC
leich wrote:
FHM how many supers have you killed?


Um last time i saw one on field was fighting DRF, we came at them whit 400 sub capital ships they countered us whit about 70 super carriers and 20 titans client crashed we lost. Was really great well least i know without the lag the fight would have lasted about 10minutes considering the dps and ehp of super capitals but i think we might be ablet o brake a aeons shield in that time.
FHM
Doomheim
#2170 - 2011-10-15 17:58:50 UTC
wanking monkey girl wrote:
so what is the count his week 10 titans 7 sc lost
even the non sov holders have super fleet and we will see them clash from time to time and fleets are lost.
soon the time of supers will end and the time of the super massive subcap blob will rule eve again to the exceptions of goons and mittans


As it was meant to be as it should be 700 vs 700 on sub capital lvl is very even TD will help smoother the fights. I had 1000+ people in system fights and there were a few that were pretty fun. But having an entity that is so much more powerfull in a blob is stupid. 600 vs 900 on sub capital lvl is viable i cant imagine the lag and error messages but its viable...

Tho this is not the issue we will finally be going on roams whit sub capital ships and will be met whit sub capital ships and we will fight on even plane
FHM
Doomheim
#2171 - 2011-10-15 18:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: FHM
Tore Vest wrote:
Oljud Zork wrote:
wanking monkey girl wrote:
so what is the count his week 10 titans 7 sc lost
even the non sov holders have super fleet and we will see them clash from time to time and fleets are lost.
soon the time of supers will end and the time of the super massive subcap blob will rule eve again to the exceptions of goons and mittans


Nuff said

http://tinyurl.com/4yg9wyo

Battle summary containing seven destroyed titans... Lol


Good job Init P




+1 melt them..
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10821158

Thats a km from that fight and thats what we are trying to remove from the game. That is not normal.
Kleg Nighthawk
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2172 - 2011-10-15 18:16:32 UTC
FHM wrote:
Kleg Nighthawk wrote:
The fighter change needs reworking. Every single class of ship in the game iwns the class smaller it and can also bring a significant portion of it's damage agains ships two classes smaller

A battle ship is only two classes of ship smaller than a super carrier so the super should be able to hit it.

My solution would be to increase the Sig resolution of the fighters as the update sugests BUT actually make it a larger figure approx600-800m. This would make fighters totaly useless agains Cruiser and smaller hulls.
Now to compensate for this and to keep a portion of their damage against BC/BS optimal range and tracking need to be altered to have fighters able to hit them, currently their optimal and tracking make them suck at it.

This in conjunction with the removal of drones would reduce a super carriers ability to engage all sizes of ship while not just limiting them to attaking Capitals. Saying that though I think removing the regular drones is reducing their capabilities in too many places in one hit.

When fault finding change one thing at a time. If you **** around with all variables in one hit you have no idea what you're going to end up with and more mportantly even IF you get the desired effect you dont actually know why.


Thats exactly the problem Super Carriers and Titans being able to hit ships smaller than BS. You said SC is 2 classes above BS so it should be able to hit them and battle-cruisers. Meaning BS whit no tracking enhancer or web should be able to hit a frig whit 0 sig thats moving at 500 orbit at 5km/s speed.

That is not balanced. If they should be able to hit sub capitals then they should not be able hulls below BS no matter how much they are Target Painted. The end result is to STOP super capital BLOB once and for ALL and for now. SC and Titans not being able to hit SUB CAPITAL ships is the only way to achieve that.

But the most pathetic thing i see is people that are part of alliances that can reimburse any number of super capital loses any time are crying about this. Not to mention so many SC losses get reimbursed by CCP we also have Alliances now sitting on such stupendous amounts of ISK that 20 Billion isk is really crap wallet balance.


Let me see

BS to BC that's one. BC to cruiser, that's two. Cruiser to Destroyer that's three and Destroyer to Frigate, that's FOUR classes down.


Tore Vest
#2173 - 2011-10-15 18:20:26 UTC
The dark side is strong in you FHM

No troll.
BRICKS4BALLS
Freelancer Union
Unaffiliated
#2174 - 2011-10-15 18:32:02 UTC
FHM wrote:
BRICKS4BALLS wrote:
"No that is exactly what needs to happen if you are 2 stupid to go and do something SOLO whit a FLEET SUPPORT ship whitout sub capital backup you deserve to die. The time when you did that and then got caught and log-offed and survived is over."

This is what some muppet wrote in response to my post, to stupid to actually understand my post it seems.

You say on one hand that if use a ship designed for fleet support solo then u deserve to die, well I agree, if you die, then u deserve it. Risk vs reward as always plays an important part in the game.

So if your saying this, then why do we need the nerf??

Answer, we dont, at least not to the extent that it will be implemented, what we perhaps need is more risk for the reward.

If you take away all the reward, nobody will risk their ships.




Again stupid and non valid argument why we shouldn't nerf them. As long as there is no way to counter them other than having the greater number of super capitals than your opponent on the field they are broken and need to be balanced.
It's stupid to have 1 thing in game that can dominate all. Now ill just stack 1000 of those and ffs... Your logic is stupid.

1) Understand that super capitals are not SOLO ships
2) Once you understand they are not solo ships understand that by that they dont need anti sub capital support
3) Once you understand 2) you know they have anti capital and super capital ability
4) Once you understand 1) 2) and 3) you will understand that they depend on sub capital support

END OF STORY

BLOB warfare is the result of this NERF. Meaning Super Capitals on field can establish an unbrakable cap transfer and remote repair chain that no sub capital fleet can brake whit its DPS. And now these ships can also output the DPS 100x bigger than the entire output of any sub capital fleet.

This is stupid. I understand you are MAD about you ship getting nerfed but BLOB warfare need to end either that or it will be the end of the GAME as it is. Because there is no fun for me to get 500 of my allies to go fight our enemy just to see them bring 150 super capitals and wipe the floor whit my fleet. Next time i will bring 1000 ships and they will bring 150 super capitals and my client will crash leaving maybe 100 of my allies online and barely active and again super capital fleet wins.

The fleet fights should happen on sub capital lvl, where super capitals assist the sub capital fleet by removing enemy logistic carriers of the field, reparing our sov infrastructure and guarding our main command ship being the Titan.

If super capitals remain as they are then there is really no need for sub capital classes other than t1 frigs for lighting cynos and no point of sub capital powers to fight against super capitals so no point in playing the game meaning that 99% of eve population should just leave the game.

Your logic is flawed.


No, my logic is relevant to me, and the way I play eve, i.e not in a large alliance with a **** load of supercaps on the field crashing my system.

Your logic is very much all about how YOU play the game, and how this change affects YOU!

Like I said in a small alliance or corp, having the ability to occassionaly use these ships is only right and fair. Anyone flying one of these solo will soon lose it, most people around null sec have some sort of bat-phone. Thats all part of the game, and a risk that people should be able to take outside of the large alliance.

So making these ships only useable in large alliances for a very specific role is pretty crap. If your arguement is that's what they were always intended for then they should never have been given the capabilities they have atm, and yes people are going to pissed off, people in smaller corps who now have no use for them whatsoever.

The real problem was created by the ease of acquiring these ships for the super alliances, I refer to the botting etc, if these problems had been addressed sooner then much less people would have them. I've reported botters myself only to have ccp ignore my mails.
FHM
Doomheim
#2175 - 2011-10-15 18:39:25 UTC
Tore Vest wrote:
The dark side is strong in you FHM

+1 Death to these crappy and useless ships, we get so much by nerfing them. We get our game back, balanced pvp, get to see all these super capital noobs cry so much knowing they cant do **** and that SC Blob is about to die. Happy times finally the game braking part is being removed.
FHM
Doomheim
#2176 - 2011-10-15 18:41:35 UTC
BRICKS4BALLS wrote:
FHM wrote:
BRICKS4BALLS wrote:
"No that is exactly what needs to happen if you are 2 stupid to go and do something SOLO whit a FLEET SUPPORT ship whitout sub capital backup you deserve to die. The time when you did that and then got caught and log-offed and survived is over."

This is what some muppet wrote in response to my post, to stupid to actually understand my post it seems.

You say on one hand that if use a ship designed for fleet support solo then u deserve to die, well I agree, if you die, then u deserve it. Risk vs reward as always plays an important part in the game.

So if your saying this, then why do we need the nerf??

Answer, we dont, at least not to the extent that it will be implemented, what we perhaps need is more risk for the reward.

If you take away all the reward, nobody will risk their ships.




Again stupid and non valid argument why we shouldn't nerf them. As long as there is no way to counter them other than having the greater number of super capitals than your opponent on the field they are broken and need to be balanced.
It's stupid to have 1 thing in game that can dominate all. Now ill just stack 1000 of those and ffs... Your logic is stupid.

1) Understand that super capitals are not SOLO ships
2) Once you understand they are not solo ships understand that by that they dont need anti sub capital support
3) Once you understand 2) you know they have anti capital and super capital ability
4) Once you understand 1) 2) and 3) you will understand that they depend on sub capital support

END OF STORY

BLOB warfare is the result of this NERF. Meaning Super Capitals on field can establish an unbrakable cap transfer and remote repair chain that no sub capital fleet can brake whit its DPS. And now these ships can also output the DPS 100x bigger than the entire output of any sub capital fleet.

This is stupid. I understand you are MAD about you ship getting nerfed but BLOB warfare need to end either that or it will be the end of the GAME as it is. Because there is no fun for me to get 500 of my allies to go fight our enemy just to see them bring 150 super capitals and wipe the floor whit my fleet. Next time i will bring 1000 ships and they will bring 150 super capitals and my client will crash leaving maybe 100 of my allies online and barely active and again super capital fleet wins.

The fleet fights should happen on sub capital lvl, where super capitals assist the sub capital fleet by removing enemy logistic carriers of the field, reparing our sov infrastructure and guarding our main command ship being the Titan.

If super capitals remain as they are then there is really no need for sub capital classes other than t1 frigs for lighting cynos and no point of sub capital powers to fight against super capitals so no point in playing the game meaning that 99% of eve population should just leave the game.

Your logic is flawed.


No, my logic is relevant to me, and the way I play eve, i.e not in a large alliance with a **** load of supercaps on the field crashing my system.

Your logic is very much all about how YOU play the game, and how this change affects YOU!

Like I said in a small alliance or corp, having the ability to occassionaly use these ships is only right and fair. Anyone flying one of these solo will soon lose it, most people around null sec have some sort of bat-phone. Thats all part of the game, and a risk that people should be able to take outside of the large alliance.

So making these ships only useable in large alliances for a very specific role is pretty crap. If your arguement is that's what they were always intended for then they should never have been given the capabilities they have atm, and yes people are going to pissed off, people in smaller corps who now have no use for them whatsoever.

The real problem was created by the ease of acquiring these ships for the super alliances, I refer to the botting etc, if these problems had been addressed sooner then much less people would have them. I've reported botters myself only to have ccp ignore my mails.


See i can agree to that. SC's need redefining and refurbishing BLOB warfare whit them needs to stop.
Samanta Raiolaser
SPTC-IC
#2177 - 2011-10-15 18:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Samanta Raiolaser
That fight where RA & allies lost lots of super to a equal super number is the proof that its not about balancing. Its about balls and alliance management.


If NC leadership wasnt so busy saving isks not reimbursing theirs supers pilots, PL/Raiden/NCDot would have to face them in tribute with 200 supers + 300 subs against 200 supers + 1000 subcaps. When they decided not to stand by their pilots, all they did was jump to low sec and hide their toys. TBH, I cant blame them.

Now we have to deal with shortsighted people who thinks that innability to realize that using their massive subcap number in form of neuts + extra supercap DPS would wipe out lots of the tech cartel supers and evict the invasion.... The problem its not the ship stats, is how they are used well in one group and not on the other.


ALSO, FHM, want some cheese?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2178 - 2011-10-15 18:51:53 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
The 7 titans Red Alliance just lost are a lie. It is not possible. With current supercapital EHP they all would have been able to log off and survive the 15 minute aggression timer.

Also it is not possible for a force to be able field enough supercapitals to counter a member of the DRF. Just cant be done.

Oh wait those titans were dying in under 90 seconds each? How could that be? And oh wait, if another powerhouse alliance just fields supercapitals against supercapitals they don't have to worry about balancing them against subcapitals like hurricanes?

Yeah the problem with supercapitals must be the EHP, log off timers, fighters and bombers not that Goonswarm doesn't want to have to put their own supercapitals and capitals on field.


Supercaps can kill supercaps therefore supercaps aren't overpowered?

OK.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
FHM
Doomheim
#2179 - 2011-10-15 18:56:23 UTC
Samanta Raiolaser wrote:
That fight where RA & allies lost lots of super to a equal super number is the proof that its not about balancing. Its about balls and alliance management.


If NC leadership wasnt so busy saving isks not reimbursing theirs supers pilots, PL/Raiden/NCDot would have to face them in tribute with 200 supers + 300 subs against 200 supers + 1000 subcaps. When they decided not to stand by their pilots, all they did was jump to low sec and hide their toys. TBH, I cant blame them.

Now we have to deal with shortsighted people who thinks that innability to realize that using their massive subcap number in form of neuts + extra supercap DPS would wipe out lots of the tech cartel supers and evict the invasion.... The problem its not the ship stats, is how they are used well in one group and not on the other.


ALSO, FHM, want some cheese?


I actually agree whit you. You point out exactly what i have been saying in on sentence "SUPER CAPITAL BLOB NEED TO STOP" and you cannot achieve that by any other mean than forcing people not to use them to such extent in fleets and only way to do that would be either to limit the number of super capital ships that can be present in a system which is stupid or easier to just nerf super capitals to a point where they are what they were made to be ships to kill capitals and other super capitals and not sub capital killers.

Also yes please.
wanking monkey girl
Doomheim
#2180 - 2011-10-15 19:29:09 UTC  |  Edited by: wanking monkey girl
init and co we are still hostile to each other but you are my hero today

Dark Voodoo Cult
Red Alliance
Nyx (Supercarrier)
Firbolg
Damage done: 13714 (50.96%)
still going to happen after the nurf

Russian Specnaz
Red Alliance
Wyvern (Supercarrier)
Firbolg
Damage done: 11369 (42.25%
still going to happen after the nurf


zatrac
Watch your six
Gypsy Band
Unknown (Unknown)
Typhoon
Damage done: 610 (2.27%)
still going to happen after the nurf

Risky eXplosion
Death or Glory
Unknown (Unknown)
Typhoon
Damage done: 406 (1.51%)
still going to happen after the nurf

Prox XQ
Weavers Corp
Gypsy Band
Unknown (Unknown)
Typhoon
Damage done: 406 (1.51%)
hint smartbomb

Alexsandr
The Curse of Distant Stars
Bright Side of Death
Unknown (Unknown)
Typhoon
Damage done: 203 (0.75%)
still going to happen after the nurf

Gypsy Band
Hurricane (Battlecruiser)
Typhoon
Damage done: 101 (0.38%)


Public.Enemy
Death or Glory
Unknown (Unknown)
Typhoon
Damage done: 101 (0.38%)
still going to happen after the nurf

Aquitane
Bad Robot Inc.
Red Alliance
Damnation (Command ship)
Target Painter II
Damage done: 0 (0.00%)
still going to happen after the nurf

Bad Robot Inc.
Red Alliance
Erebus (Titan)
Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I
Damage done: 0 (0.00%)
still going to happen after the nurf titan missing a hit with meta 2 guns

Dark Voodoo Cult
Red Alliance
Nyx (Supercarrier)
Domination Warp Disruptor
Damage done: 0 (0.00%)
still going to happen after the nurf

Pact Of Honour
Red Alliance
Nyx (Supercarrier)
Remote ECM Burst I
Damage done: 0 (0.00%)
still going to happen after the nurf

High Venture Team
Red Alliance
Nyx (Supercarrier)
Republic Fleet Target Painter
still going to happen after the nurf