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NULL whiners mantra is getting tedious... and CSM lacks HI SEC representation

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#381 - 2012-09-02 12:43:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Frying Doom wrote:
It increases their education as to the role of the CSM
No. If they were interested in it, they'd know it already. If they aren't now, they'll just skip it and click whatever button gets rid of the spam the quickest.

Quote:
As to Annoying them it would be about 1 minute in a year so not a huge loss of time.
The time loss isn't relevant. What matters is that you're pestering them with popups about things they don't care about rather than give them the choice to actively seek it out.

Quote:
It is not representative
In what way, and how does it matter? The number of voters don't really matter (if nothing else then because of statistical sampling) — what matters is whether the players' issues are on the agenda. Can you provide an example of something that's missing?

Quote:
That really does not sound representative to me.
So what? Can you show that it doesn't represent the players?

Again, what's the problem with the current representation?
Frying Doom
#382 - 2012-09-02 12:43:30 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
That was nice maybe you can do something like that up for the peasants.

It's already there, there's nothing to be done.

Frying Doom wrote:
Again attempt to educate, failing that call them peasants and ignore them. But always educate the first.

They have been.

Frying Doom wrote:
They might have been educated there is currently no guarantee of that. So we educate them all.

They have been.

without pulling it apart.
They probably have not seen that.
They only might have been.
They only might have been.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#383 - 2012-09-02 12:47:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
It increases their education as to the role of the CSM
No. If they were interested in it, they'd know it already. If they aren't now, they'll just skip it and click whatever button gets rid of the spam the quickest.

That is a possibility but not a certainty, I believe you would find more people would vote as to how many more, who knows.

Tippia wrote:
Quote:
As to Annoying them it would be about 1 minute in a year so not a huge loss of time.
The time loss isn't relevant. What matters is that you're pestering them with popups about things they don't care about rather than give them the choice to actively seek it out.

Educating them rather than allowing them to live in ignorance is always a good thing. and not pop ups, a pop-up. And as neither I nor you are them, how do we know this would pester them. You can only guess as you can only guess as to whether they are currently educated as to what the CSM does.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#384 - 2012-09-02 12:49:23 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
without pulling it apart.
They probably have not seen that.

Sucks to be them, they have literally everything they need at their fingertips, and they're not want for notification, either.

Frying Doom wrote:
They only might have been.
They only might have been.

No, they have been.

And your suggestion of having an abstain button at login will only mean CCP gets abstains from the same people who are choosing not to vote now. Nothing will change, they'll have wasted programmer time creating a mechanic which makes absolutely no impact beyond irritating people.

Great job.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#385 - 2012-09-02 12:52:21 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
That is a possibility but not a certainty, I believe you would find more people would vote as to how many more, who knows.
That is a possibility but not a certainty. Why is your uncertainty better, especially when there's nothing to suggest that it will change anything.

Quote:
Educating them rather than allowing them to live in ignorance is always a good thing.
…and they're not going to be educated by a popup about something they already don't care about — years of internet usage has primed EVE players to be very quick on the “get this crap out of my way”-button.

What's wrong with the current representation that makes all this effort to annoy people is worth it?
Frying Doom
#386 - 2012-09-02 12:54:20 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

And your suggestion of having an abstain button at login will only mean CCP gets abstains from the same people who are choosing not to vote now. Nothing will change, they'll have wasted programmer time creating a mechanic which makes absolutely no impact beyond irritating people.

Great job.

The programmer time to do that would be in C less than an hour so bugger all, as to the abstains, we would at least then have real numbers and know that everyone was educated and as I said some of them would actually vote.

Educating the Populous is very cheap, allowing minorities to control the CSM could be very expensive.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#387 - 2012-09-02 12:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Frying Doom wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…and regardless, the fundamental question remains: what's the problem with the current representation?

It is not representative, it cannot be given such a small percentage of voters and when a 3% block is considered the largest power block or that you only need 1/3 of 1% of the populous to get someone on the CSM.

That really does not sound representative to me.


Welcome to politics, that would be sufficient to get you elected in many places so why not a game.

Without the CSM we'd be well and truly screwed, CCP would be free to do as they please, we'd have promises of 18 months for FiS development, the NEX store would be out of control, and subs would probably at all time low, make the most of what we have the CSM do have the interests of the game at heart no matter how biased they may seem. They obviously care enough to give up their time to represent & communicate with players, yeah trips to the land of fire and ice are a nice perk as is political clout, but they do put in a substantial amount of free time and effort in return

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#388 - 2012-09-02 12:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Frying Doom wrote:
as to the abstains, we would at least then have real numbers and know that everyone was educated
No, we really wouldn't.

If you dismiss the level of education they have at the moment, then the level they'd have after your scheme would be dismissible for the same reasons.
Frying Doom
#389 - 2012-09-02 12:58:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
That is a possibility but not a certainty, I believe you would find more people would vote as to how many more, who knows.
That is a possibility but not a certainty. Why is your uncertainty better, especially when there's nothing to suggest that it will change anything.

Quote:
Educating them rather than allowing them to live in ignorance is always a good thing.
…and they're not going to be educated by a popup about something they already don't care about — years of internet usage has primed EVE players to be very quick on the “get this crap out of my way”-button.

What's wrong with the current representation that makes all this effort to annoy people is worth it?

My uncertainty is not better but if you believed all of the people currently not voting through apathy would not vote then I believe you are being naive.

Yes but should this button occur somewhere and only appear there once in a year it is an unusual occurrence and I believe it would pull a number of people up.

Yes we are constantly surrounded by ads, pop-ups and other crap. We are all at saturation level and subsequently paying less attention as things become common place. That is why I want to do it in a place and a way we have not programmed ourselves to do it.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#390 - 2012-09-02 13:00:04 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
The programmer time to do that would be in C less than an hour so bugger all

And then there's proper QA, the art department will have to be pulled in (you don't want to make punkturis sad by adding a new thing to EVE with a ****** UI, now would you? She might have to make sad puppy eyes again.)

Frying Doom wrote:
Educating the Populous is very cheap, allowing minorities to control the CSM could be very expensive.

So let's sum up what information players have to ignore to remain completely uninformed of the CSM

1) Banner on the login screen
2) Media blitz everywhere
3) Evemails from trebors
4) Forum posts everywhere
5) Email from CCP
6) Local spam everywhere.

What kind of person are you saying CCP has to expend a ton of additional time, money and energy into reaching, which isn't reached already?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#391 - 2012-09-02 13:00:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
as to the abstains, we would at least then have real numbers and know that everyone was educated
No, we really wouldn't.

If you dismiss the level of education they have at the moment, then the level they'd have after your scheme would be dismissible for the same reasons.

we would have eves population containing the number of voters and the number of abstainers so yes we would.

As to there current education on the CSM that is hypothetical not real, educate them and you know they have been.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ghazu
#392 - 2012-09-02 13:01:00 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
That is a possibility but not a certainty, I believe you would find more people would vote as to how many more, who knows.
That is a possibility but not a certainty. Why is your uncertainty better, especially when there's nothing to suggest that it will change anything.

Quote:
Educating them rather than allowing them to live in ignorance is always a good thing.
…and they're not going to be educated by a popup about something they already don't care about — years of internet usage has primed EVE players to be very quick on the “get this crap out of my way”-button.

What's wrong with the current representation that makes all this effort to annoy people is worth it?

My uncertainty is not better but if you believed all of the people currently not voting through apathy would not vote then I believe you are being naive.

Yes but should this button occur somewhere and only appear there once in a year it is an unusual occurrence and I believe it would pull a number of people up.

Yes we are constantly surrounded by ads, pop-ups and other crap. We are all at saturation level and subsequently paying less attention as things become common place. That is why I want to do it in a place and a way we have not programmed ourselves to do it.


christ issler already got a seat what you want him to be chairman?

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#393 - 2012-09-02 13:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Frying Doom wrote:
if you believed all of the people currently not voting through apathy would not vote then I believe you are being naive.
I believe that if you think that people who care aren't already voting and that apathy isn't that high, then you are naïve.

Quote:
Yes we are constantly surrounded by ads, pop-ups and other crap. We are all at saturation level and subsequently paying less attention as things become common place. That is why I want to do it in a place and a way we have not programmed ourselves to do it.
No such place exists and the response doesn't go away: it's in my way, I'm not interested, scroll-clicktodismiss-complainonforumsaboutpointlessspam. It's more or less muscle-memory for the average internet user now and it will not increase the education level.

Quote:
we would have eves population containing the number of voters and the number of abstainers so yes we would.
…and we'd know absolutely nothing about their “education”-level so no, we really wouldn't.

Oh, and of course, that fundamental question remains unanswered.
Frying Doom
#394 - 2012-09-02 13:07:31 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The programmer time to do that would be in C less than an hour so bugger all

And then there's proper QA, the art department will have to be pulled in (you don't want to make punkturis sad by adding a new thing to EVE with a ****** UI, now would you? She might have to make sad puppy eyes again.)

Frying Doom wrote:
Educating the Populous is very cheap, allowing minorities to control the CSM could be very expensive.

So let's sum up what information players have to ignore to remain completely uninformed of the CSM

1) Banner on the login screen
2) Media blitz everywhere
3) Evemails from trebors
4) Forum posts everywhere
5) Email from CCP
6) Local spam everywhere.

What kind of person are you saying CCP has to expend a ton of additional time, money and energy into reaching, which isn't reached already?

Punkturis did not work on the UI its the UI like they used on the alliance tournament.

Media blitz everywhere? Funny it wasn't in my morning paper just some eve and gaming sites that a lot of people seem to make fun of. I didn't get that evemail myself so not sure what that one is.

The CCP email, I honestly cannot remember what that said ATM I am flooded with Dust ones.
The local spam was rather light this year considering when I was doing it I did not run over another and as I said I had a lot of people asking what the CSM was.

So even with all that lot, given this thread and the response in local at the last CSM election a lot of people did miss all that.

So we are still back to the fact they need educating and that 1/3 of 1% is pathetic amount to get onto the CSM.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#395 - 2012-09-02 13:09:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
if you believed all of the people currently not voting through apathy would not vote then I believe you are being naive.
I believe that if you think that people who care aren't already voting and that apathy isn't that high, then you are naïve.

Quote:
Yes we are constantly surrounded by ads, pop-ups and other crap. We are all at saturation level and subsequently paying less attention as things become common place. That is why I want to do it in a place and a way we have not programmed ourselves to do it.
No such place exists and the response doesn't go away: it's in my way, I'm not interested, scroll-clicktodismiss-complainonforumsaboutpointlessspam. It's more or less muscle-memory for the average internet user now and it will not increase the education level.

Quote:
we would have eves population containing the number of voters and the number of abstainers so yes we would.
…and we'd know absolutely nothing about their “education”-level so no, we really wouldn't.

Oh, and of course, that fundamental question remains unanswered.

Either way education is the best plan for including more people into the CSM other than the pathetic 18% who voted this year.

With the pop-up you know they have had access to what the CSM is, not think but know.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#396 - 2012-09-02 13:12:38 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…and regardless, the fundamental question remains: what's the problem with the current representation?

It is not representative, it cannot be given such a small percentage of voters and when a 3% block is considered the largest power block or that you only need 1/3 of 1% of the populous to get someone on the CSM.

That really does not sound representative to me.


Welcome to politics, that would be sufficient to get you elected in many places so why not a game.

Without the CSM we'd be well and truly screwed, CCP would be free to do as they please, we'd have promises of 18 months for FiS development, the NEX store would be out of control, and subs would probably at all time low, make the most of what we have the CSM do have the interests of the game at heart no matter how biased they may seem. They obviously care enough to give up their time to represent & communicate with players, yeah trips to the land of fire and ice are a nice perk as is political clout, but they do put in a substantial amount of free time and effort in return

Where the hell do you get elected on 0.36% of the populous?

Please be aware I am not criticizing the current CSM with this thread this is the current voting system and the pathetic percentage of votes required to get a seat on the CSM.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#397 - 2012-09-02 13:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Frying Doom wrote:
So even with all that lot, given this thread and the response in local at the last CSM election a lot of people did miss all that.
Yes, that's what we are asking you. How on earth can you claim that they are “not educated” rather than just completely disinterested and apathetic?

Quote:
Either way education is the best plan for including more people into the CSM other than the pathetic 18% who voted this year.
If by “pathetic” you mean “more than twice the number of people who generally interact with the game community and almost 20× the number of people who generally do it actively”… 18% is a massive response for these kinds of things and shows that people are voting in large numbers. Chalking the rest up to apathy and lack of interest is a far more readily available explanation than saying that they would engage more if they knew more.

Most likely, they already do. Most likely, they already don't care. Most likely, those who want to be represented already are. Hell, pretty much nothing has been offered to suggest that they aren't.

Quote:
With the pop-up you know they have had access to what the CSM is, not think but know.
…and they'd still not be “educated” by your standards.

Quote:
Where the hell do you get elected on 0.36% of the populous?
Oh, pretty much anywhere where the local electorate is divided between many blocks. Hell, a seat in the Swedish parliament represents 0.28% of the voters, and not all of those will actually have voted for the person, so it's quite likely that s/he only represents 0.15–0.20%.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#398 - 2012-09-02 13:30:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Frying Doom wrote:

Where the hell do you get elected on 0.36% of the populous?

Please be aware I am not criticizing the current CSM with this thread this is the current voting system and the pathetic percentage of votes required to get a seat on the CSM.


Probably the same countries where you can have more votes than your opponent and still lose. Some countries have weighted voting so that more populous areas don't wield excess political influence based on their population, less populated areas have more political influence per head than the populated ones. (vastly simplified for easy consumption & because I was gently trolling you)

At least one major world power does this.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#399 - 2012-09-02 13:50:26 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Media blitz everywhere? Funny it wasn't in my morning paper just some eve and gaming sites that a lot of people seem to make fun of. I didn't get that evemail myself so not sure what that one is.

Now you're just being obtuse.

Frying Doom wrote:
The CCP email, I honestly cannot remember what that said ATM I am flooded with Dust ones.

Subject: EVE Online - CSM Election Information Newsletter
Date: 16.03.2011 02:00

YOUR VOTE IS YOUR CHOICE - USE IT!
Tens of thousands of players have already cast their votes. They have selected the candidates they feel will best represent their interests and their desires for EVE Online. Are you one of them?

What Is The CSM?
The CSM is a council of nine player representatives that are democratically elected by the EVE community. Their purpose is to represent player interests to CCP, focusing on the "greatest good for the greater player base." The scope of issues is restricted only to EVE Online, its ongoing development, and limited meta (out-of-game) issues which have direct relevance to the EVE universe. While the CSM will not have formal powers within CCP, they will have a voice inside CCP. More on the CSM can be found here.

A Brief History of the CSM (by the 5th CSM)

Who Is Currently Running?
Over 50 candidates have their hats in the ring this election, representing 35 different alliances and a dozen real life countries. CCP Diagoras' Candidate Listing Blog has a complete breakdown on the demographics for those interested in the finer details.

DevBlog: Candidate Listing for the 6th CSM Elections

So Many Choices! How Do I Decide?
Voters can review the candidate roster in the CSM section of EVEOnline.com. The roster is complete with a personally crafted message by each one, as well as any additional links and information they wish to relay.

Additionally, a website run by current CSM member, Diedra Vaal, has created a Vote Match page that uses a small questionnaire to aid in matching you with the candidates that best support your views. Vote Match also allows you to see where each candidate stands on dozens of hot topics and pressing issues in EVE Online.

Who Can Vote?
Any member of the EVE community with an active account that is older than 30 days may vote in the election.

Would You Like To Know More?
EVE FORUMS - Visit the Jita park Speakers Corner for current threads and discussions with the current candidates.

TWITTER - #csm6 #csmvi and #rocthevote all offer up to the minute active discussions on the current election.

Frying Doom wrote:
So we are still back to the fact they need educating and that 1/3 of 1% is pathetic amount to get onto the CSM.

Nope. They're already educated.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#400 - 2012-09-02 15:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
In order to not know about the election they would have to have been cut off from all communication with the playerbase and ignored emails from CCP and the adverts on the login screen. These people clearly do not care about EVE enough to vote.