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FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

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Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#281 - 2012-08-30 00:13:58 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
One thing that i don't know if has been mentioned.

But one problem with pvp in plexes is that the NPC's tip the scales.. You don't nessisarily want to 1v1 another merlin if yours is taking fire from npc's as well.

this might not exactly be a problem or a fault but it certainly does not encourage pvp.


Oh it's been mentioned. :) This is very much on CCP's radar.....they're wrapping up release planning so you should start to see the preliminary list of fixes trickle out soon for everyone to discuss

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#282 - 2012-08-30 00:19:34 UTC
Axl Borlara wrote:
That's encouraging, except that some things need fixing ASAP.
A few relatively minor changes *now* that remove the bulk of the farmers will be enough to keep people happy and still involved in FW until the rest of the fixes come along.


To be fair, the issues that affect farming aren't exactly "minor changes". They may seem that way conceptually, but its going to take them some development time and its extremely unlikely that you'll see anything changed until the December release.

Is it going to get worse before it gets better? Probably, so hang in there. The good news though is that CCP isn't just giving FW the surface treatment when the time comes, they're trying very hard to hit a lot of these issues at their core.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#283 - 2012-08-30 06:59:40 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
One thing that i don't know if has been mentioned.

But one problem with pvp in plexes is that the NPC's tip the scales.. You don't nessisarily want to 1v1 another merlin if yours is taking fire from npc's as well.

this might not exactly be a problem or a fault but it certainly does not encourage pvp.


Oh it's been mentioned. :) This is very much on CCP's radar.....they're wrapping up release planning so you should start to see the preliminary list of fixes trickle out soon for everyone to discuss



Yatta!

People who don't want to fight make me sad, making them more likely to fight makes me happy!

And then after this CCP should release an expansion named OUTLAW. And focus for half a year on making life for us reds easier instead of harder >=[

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#284 - 2012-08-30 09:06:18 UTC
One of my big problems with those NPCs is that they are causing the faction standing when you kill them.
Yes, roleplay... pick sides... consequences...

But the consequences are simply: if you ruin your faction standings while doing FW, many people will NOT take part in FW who normally would.
As CEO I have A HELL of trouble beating into new pilots that they MUST NOT ruin their standings.
Standing mechanics are something that does not interest many players for managing standings is very tedious.
But at a corp level, you lose many options:
Try form a fleet, do something in HiSec - you can bet that some guy who runs missions in his off-time will say: well, I cannot chase that war target, my standing with Amarr is too low.
Not to even mention being able to setup POSes in a mixed corp...
Alternative: turn half of potential members away because of wrong standings.

TL;DR:
Please DO NOT make it mandatory to ruin your faction standing in FW.
This will keep players from trying out FW and make this feature only available to some FW-only corps/players.

I also do believe that you would not see that many gun-less, stab-fitted lol-fits in Plexes if killing the NPCs actuall would not do any harm.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#285 - 2012-08-30 10:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
Proposal for a rebalance change:



1. Make offensive plexing happen in 2 PHASES:
I) INITIAL FIGHT (PvE)
II) SITTING DUCK :-D (potential PvP)

2. NPCs in FW-Plexes do not cause standing hits any more.


ad I) ship warps into enemy Plex and starts approaching the button. IF the timer is right at the start, an NPC spawn will happen. This spawn should be challenging and appropriate to the complex size.
This makes sure that no one can do plexes without guns.

Important: it should be possible to kill the NPCs in a relatively short timespan - but not without guns.
(example 5 minutes in a 15 minutes plex)

ad II) after a certain time period (above 5 minutes) the Beacon starts broadcasting for help in Local chat.
("Gallente minor outpost: help, we are under attack!"). If you do it right, the NPCs should be dead by then.

You have to kill the NPCs (or maybe at least an overseer) to capture the plex AND run the timer down.
If there are no enemies near the button, the timer will regenerate in favor of the defending side.
The spawn will only happen if the timer is less than 5 minutes.


Effect:
-you can not speed tank complexes, but you will have to bring a ship at least capable of dealing with the NPCs. Otherwise you cannot capture the complex.
-no one minds shooting the NPCs because of standings.
-After the initial fight you are forced to sit duck at the beacon while everyone in the system is aware that you are doing it. There will be no NPCs around to discourage PvP (then again... it could be A TARP!)
-defensive plexing is done automatically since there is no incentive to do it anyway
-defenders find the attackers easier -> moar fights
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#286 - 2012-08-31 14:37:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
@yiterbambam you link to this thread as "npc and complex revamp" so here is my complex revamp feedback

Arrow timers should run backwards if you leave the flag
Arrow there should be a requirement to kill NPCs before finishing a plex


what should that fix? It should encourage plexing with pvp ships, create "hold the line" situations etc. You will lose progress if you run away and 0 risk sig tanking in alpha alts without fitting guns (speak farming) wouldn't work anymore.

(yes i don't care much about NPCs but AI changes are always very welcome)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#287 - 2012-08-31 14:38:16 UTC
Come'on Ytterbium, press the "Post" button already. Ignore the other thread, Fozz got that covered!!!!

Come ON!!!!! Smile
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2012-08-31 14:40:11 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Come'on Ytterbium, press the "Post" button already. Ignore the other thread, Fozz got that covered!!!!

Come ON!!!!! Smile


^^

Seriously, this is where the most important macro changes will occur. The root of the farming problem is how easy it is to plex and gain LP while constantly running from PVP.
fingie
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2012-08-31 15:19:52 UTC
I have a question: was the point of FW to bring players into low-sec, or to have more PvP? Because if it's the first, I would say it's been a great success so far and leave well enough alone. If it's the second then it was not as successful as some would like (whine, whine, we want easy pvp where the target is stuck, whine) but I still got killed over 20 times so far, so I guess that's PvP of sorts.

Just wondering if everyone who is so hot on changing the system realizes that the population after such changes would be about a tenth of the present one (and why they're so happy about it if they do understand that).
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#290 - 2012-08-31 15:53:37 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Come'on Ytterbium, press the "Post" button already. Ignore the other thread, Fozz got that covered!!!!

Come ON!!!!! Smile


^^

Seriously, this is where the most important macro changes will occur. The root of the farming problem is how easy it is to plex and gain LP while constantly running from PVP.


Farmers in AFK frigates will cry many, many, tears once they see what's coming to them. Make isk while you can people.....

...but these guys are in a ton of meetings today, finalizing things and posting them up as they have time to draft them on their breaks. Be patient, give the devs a lttle time here, I think you'll like what you see. Cool

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#291 - 2012-08-31 15:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ty Delaney
Bienator II wrote:
@yiterbambam you link to this thread as "npc and complex revamp" so here is my complex revamp feedback

Arrow timers should run backwards if you leave the flag


Yes.

Bienator II wrote:

Arrow there should be a requirement to kill NPCs before finishing a plex


Really have to disagree with this, for two reasons.

One: FW is a great new-player pvp option in the game because it has a low barrier of entry, and a big part of that is the fact that a really new player can substantively contribute to their faction's war effort, via plexing. That is valuable -- it makes FW new-player accessible in a way that NO other major PvP activity currently is, especially when you take into consideration the fact that any comparable activity (RvB, nullsec newbie hero tackle) has a massive player-based infrastructure to keep it going. (Yes, this new-player accessibility allows vets to use new alts to cap plexes, but in addressing that, CCP needs to solve the problem in a way that retains the new player accessibility, because it is a good and important feature of FW.)

Two: Faction warfare needs less mandatory PvE, not more. Wanna turn the 'orbit zone' around the button into a warp bubble? Cool. Want to move the warp-in point closer to the button? Awesome. You want to mandate PvE inside a thing that's supposed to encourage PvP? No. Does not compute.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#292 - 2012-08-31 16:13:17 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:

Two: Faction warfare needs less mandatory PvE, not more. Wanna turn the 'orbit zone' around the button into a warp bubble? Cool. Want to move the warp-in point closer to the button? Awesome. You want to mandate PvE inside a thing that's supposed to encourage PvP? No. Does not compute.



I would agree. However, I think once you see what the NPC "content" will look like, I think much of this fear will be mitigated.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#293 - 2012-08-31 16:18:36 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Come'on Ytterbium, press the "Post" button already. Ignore the other thread, Fozz got that covered!!!!

Come ON!!!!! Smile


Had to read the 15 pages of feedback on this topic first P Will post something now.

Is the anticipation killing you?

Are we there yet?


How about now?



Now?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#294 - 2012-08-31 16:31:04 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
.... Be patient, give the devs a lttle time here, I think you'll like what you see. Cool

Calling for patience from the FW crowd .. might as well try to tell the sun not to come up Big smile
Ty Delaney wrote:
One: FW is a great new-player pvp option in the game...

This was the reason for the plex restrictions and it held true for about a year or so, now however a 'newbie' is effectively thrown to the wolves as he'll have to contend with faction hulls, omni-present boosters and Goddess knows what else all the while being considered a dirty SPAI!
'Newbies' are actually a lot better off in RvB or even as expendable tackle in null .. just sayin'
Ty Delaney wrote:
Two: Faction warfare needs less mandatory PvE, not more....

True .. but .. separating the two without adopting a 100% player driven occupancy mechanic like in null is impossible, so the question is how much is too much and what other options are there to solve the problems with the farming frigs.
You'll end up doing more damage to FW were a solution adopted that forced PvP than you'd do by forcing PvE due to the fact that PvP is not and can never be balanced, not by a long-shot (impossible without crippling the game).
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Are we there yet?

Was actually looking for a YouTube clip with that line as a response to Hans' call for patience, but couldn't find one annoying enough Big smile
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#295 - 2012-08-31 16:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Ty Delaney wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
@yiterbambam you link to this thread as "npc and complex revamp" so here is my complex revamp feedback

Arrow timers should run backwards if you leave the flag


Yes.

Bienator II wrote:

Arrow there should be a requirement to kill NPCs before finishing a plex


Really have to disagree with this, for two reasons.

One: FW is a great new-player pvp option in the game because it has a low barrier of entry, and a big part of that is the fact that a really new player can substantively contribute to their faction's war effort, via plexing.

you can do a minor in ANY pvp fitted frig. Basically right after 1 or two days skilltime. (i am not talking about sig tanking)

Ty Delaney wrote:

That is valuable -- it makes FW new-player accessible in a way that NO other major PvP activity currently is, especially when you take into consideration the fact that any comparable activity (RvB, nullsec newbie hero tackle) has a massive player-based infrastructure to keep it going. (Yes, this new-player accessibility allows vets to use new alts to cap plexes, but in addressing that, CCP needs to solve the problem in a way that retains the new player accessibility, because it is a good and important feature of FW.)

Two: Faction warfare needs less mandatory PvE, not more. Wanna turn the 'orbit zone' around the button into a warp bubble? Cool. Want to move the warp-in point closer to the button? Awesome. You want to mandate PvE inside a thing that's supposed to encourage PvP? No. Does not compute.


you won't engage anyone while tanking a major plex. or would you? Its basically kill him in 30s or you die first. Majors are no solo activity for noobs or farming alts. All what tanking majors does is to encourage farming in 0 risk pve ships. Its exactly what this bullet point tries to fix:


Bienator II wrote:

what should that fix? It should encourage plexing with pvp ships, create "hold the line" situations etc. You will lose progress if you run away and 0 risk sig tanking in alpha alts without fitting guns (speak farming) wouldn't work anymore.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#296 - 2012-08-31 16:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Alright folks, as promised, here are some iterations we are planning for winter.

Remember, this thread will focus on FW NPCs and complexes, for War Zone Control and System Upgrade changes, please refer to this post.


  • FW COMPLEX CHANGES

    • After reading the feedback from numerous community sources (had to read this post again to make sure we didn't forget any good point), we acknowledge that Factional Warfare complexes need to be changed and are high in our priority list.

    * Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.

    * Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone.

    * Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.

    * Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).


  • FW COMPLEX NPC CHANGES

    • We will be talking about complex NPC changes only here - we know FW mission NPCs need to be tackled as well, but for now let's focus on one problem at a time. Before we list the changes, the main activity we see for Factional Warfare is PvP. PvE should not override PvP in this feature, as such the NPCs need to be very specialized to meet the goals you mentioned in this thread.

    * NPC attribute revamp: this means two things. First, making sure no faction has an advantage over another. For example, having some factions use missiles while other have turrets is a no go. The other is to make sure we prevent, or at least significantly reduce AFK farming without hampering PvP when it does happen. Current FW complex NPCs will be scrapped and replaced with new ones that have the following characteristics:

    * Very low damage output - they can kill you if you stay in the complex without taking care of them for 15 minutes, but their damage potential is so small it won't hamper players if attacked by others while capturing.
    * Very high speeds: no matter what your fitting is, they will catch you. No endless Benny Hill music scene anymore.
    * No EW: no electronical warfare or any kind, as this would be destabilizing when PvP occurs
    * Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat
    * Active tanking: NPCs will have an active tanking according to the complex size they are on to discourage players to tackle larger sites with undersized ships. For example, while Minor sites could have a frigate NPC easily killed in your own frigate, Major could have battlecruiser or battleships NPCs with a active tank extremely difficult to tackle on the same frigate.


    Why do the active tanking point matter you say? Because:

    * NPCs contest capture timer: as long as there is a NPC in the area the capture timer is paused, just like with an enemy player. Capture timer is only paused when attacking a complex. Defending a complex with NPCs of the same faction would not cause such pause. Coupled with the active tanking point above, it means that if you can't kill the NPC reasonably fast, you can't capture the complex.

    * NPC number reduction: currently NPCs spawn by wave of 3-5 on a timer. Thus if you don't kill them in time you can be overrun by a large number of them. That was particularly a problem with EW NPCs, as while a few jamming NPCs is annoying but not a big deal, having 10-15 of them jamming you would prevent you from doing anything. Our goal is to change them to spawn sequentially one at a time, so the next NPC would not arrive until the previous one was killed. Again, PvE should not take over PvP in Factional Warfare.

    * NPCs only spawn when no PvP is happening: NPCs spawn at a semi-random period of time, and only when the complex is attacked while there is no defending player. Technically that means NPC prevent AFK farming. NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.

    * NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.



Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate
fingie
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#297 - 2012-08-31 16:57:12 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
you can do a minor in ANY pvp fitted frig. Basically right after 1 or two days skilltime. (i am not talking about sig tanking)


This I got to see. Would you please post a fit? Something a two-day char can use? 'Cause I'm really curious to see how a two-day old pvp fit that can nevertheless kill a bunch of NPCs looks like.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#298 - 2012-08-31 17:11:51 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
I really like the low dps, fast NPCs with active repping idea.

Please clarify the following.

Quote:

* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.


A "tie" goes to the faster ships that may have no incentive to engage. Super fast defender will sit on button aligned away. When opponent comes in he'll burn away and pick at targets, or just keep at range until the opponent gets bored. What is really a "win" for the attacker (they control the plex) turns into a loss (fast defender can grief with no risk). The advantage to the fast defender increases with capture range size.

Perhaps the capture timer range was originally set based on projected effective range of the ships that would enter the plex.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#299 - 2012-08-31 17:12:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
@Ytterbimbang those fixes would already fix a lot of issues.

however a few possible problems:
- bring a wt alt with you.. no npcs spawn?


i also don't like the warpin spot changes. IMO there should be more reasons why i should stay in a plex and defend my efforts when a wt warps in, otherwise they will just leave as soon something is on close range dscan, move to the next system while the wt has to undo the plexing. (pvp blocker)

so rather then changing the warpin i would like to see "backwards running timers" if you leave the plex.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Dan Carter Murray
#300 - 2012-08-31 17:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dan Carter Murray
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alright folks, as promised, here are some iterations we are planning for winter.

Remember, this thread will focus on FW NPCs and complexes, for War Zone Control and System Upgrade changes, please refer to this post.


  • FW COMPLEX CHANGES

    • After reading the feedback from numerous community sources (had to read this post again to make sure we didn't forget any good point), we acknowledge that Factional Warfare complexes need to be changed and are high in our priority list.

    * Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.

    * Unify capture range: having 10, 20 and 30km range depending on the complex size is confusing and not needed anymore if we move the beacon closer to the room entrance. Thus we would like to have a capture range of 30km for all sized sites, so it's easier to remember for everyone.

    * Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.

    * Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).


  • FW COMPLEX NPC CHANGES

    • We will be talking about complex NPC changes only here - we know FW mission NPCs need to be tackled as well, but for now let's focus on one problem at a time. Before we list the changes, the main activity we see for Factional Warfare is PvP. PvE should not override PvP in this feature, as such the NPCs need to be very specialized to meet the goals you mentioned in this thread.

    * NPC attribute revamp: this means two things. First, making sure no faction has an advantage over another. For example, having some factions use missiles while other have turrets is a no go. The other is to make sure we prevent, or at least significantly reduce AFK farming without hampering PvP when it does happen. Current FW complex NPCs will be scrapped and replaced with new ones that have the following characteristics:

    * Very low damage output - they can kill you if you stay in the complex without taking care of them for 15 minutes, but their damage potential is so small it won't hamper players if attacked by others while capturing.
    * Very high speeds: no matter what your fitting is, they will catch you. No endless Benny Hill music scene anymore.
    * No EW: no electronical warfare or any kind, as this would be destabilizing when PvP occurs
    * Have Sleeper AI: that means they will change targets according to your threat
    * Active tanking: NPCs will have an active tanking according to the complex size they are on to discourage players to tackle larger sites with undersized ships. For example, while Minor sites could have a frigate NPC easily killed in your own frigate, Major could have battlecruiser or battleships NPCs with a active tank extremely difficult to tackle on the same frigate.


    Why do the active tanking point matter you say? Because:

    * NPCs contest capture timer: as long as there is a NPC in the area the capture timer is paused, just like with an enemy player. Capture timer is only paused when attacking a complex. Defending a complex with NPCs of the same faction would not cause such pause. Coupled with the active tanking point above, it means that if you can't kill the NPC reasonably fast, you can't capture the complex.

    * NPC number reduction: currently NPCs spawn by wave of 3-5 on a timer. Thus if you don't kill them in time you can be overrun by a large number of them. That was particularly a problem with EW NPCs, as while a few jamming NPCs is annoying but not a big deal, having 10-15 of them jamming you would prevent you from doing anything. Our goal is to change them to spawn sequentially one at a time, so the next NPC would not arrive until the previous one was killed. Again, PvE should not take over PvP in Factional Warfare.

    * NPCs only spawn when no PvP is happening: NPCs spawn at a semi-random period of time, and only when the complex is attacked while there is no defending player. Technically that means NPC prevent AFK farming. NPCs do not warp away when a player from the opposing factions arrives. However, since they have very low damage and no EW, this shouldn't be much of a problem.

    * NPC standing aggression revamp: it's currently very blurry to know when NPCs attack you and when they don't. Part of the NPC revamp is to have clear attack rules to know when they are going to attack you or not. A fallout of that is also to make standing gains from PvP / PvE more consistent in FW, as we have a lot of confusion with this as well. We still have to design details on this specific points, but there have been excellent suggestions on this thread we will look into.



Here you go, again, constructive comments are welcome Pirate


love it. Edit: except the plex size restriction changes

please test it to hell and back though before implementing.

let's have a release without issues!

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com