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FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

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Author
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#261 - 2012-08-23 14:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Meditril wrote:
Here are my 2ct to this topic:


1. Doing large plexes solo with a gun-less frigate should not be possible. Button should only count down if no NPC is on grid.
2. NPC should have WH-AI to make them more intelligent. They should not fire contiuosly at a target out range and ignore targets in range etc. With regards to DPS and tank, NPC are fine as they are.
3. Since the first change will have a massive impact on large plexes, reduce the timer. I propose make all plex timers 15 minutes at max.
4. Large plexes should context / decontext a system significantly more than small ones.
5. Stop LP payout for plexing if system is 100% contested / vulnerable.
6. It should be impossible to contest a system more than 100%. It should be indeed possible to make a vulnerable system unvulnerable by just defensive plexing one plex. This will cause fights and pressure for the offender to stay in control of all plexes until der bunker is down. This gives a small defender fleet at least a chance to disrupt the offender even if he has a much larger fleet.
[/list]

1. agree
2. not sure this is a good thing, WH-AI might actually killoff fighting in plexes, because we are stuck with more fragile tech I frig, dest, and cruisers which is not the case as in WH space.
3. sounds good
4. possibly
5. definitely. And it would funnel the farming alts (assuming they survive as low skilled alts) into fewer systems where they themselves could be farmed quite easily.P
6. hmm, well it would make bunker busting or mass bunker busting more difficult. it might cut down on the extreme ping pong monthly or so lp dumping strategies currently manifesting. Would have to think more about this.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#262 - 2012-08-23 15:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Meditril
Deacon Abox wrote:

2. not sure this is a good thing, WH-AI might actually killoff fighting in plexes, because we are stuck with more fragile tech I frig, dest, and cruisers which is not the case as in WH space.
6. hmm, well it would make bunker busting or mass bunker busting more difficult. it might cut down on the extreme ping pong monthly or so lp dumping strategies currently manifesting. Would have to think more about this.


With regards to your concerns to point 2. I was just talking about AI and not about making the NPC harder to kill. Better AI will just make the NPC switch their primary target from time to time and also distributed damage accross targets. FW-NPC should also with new AI not use any E-War. For small plexes this will make no difference since you can kill NPCs easily from range with one destroyer. For larger plexes the difference will be that you with AI can't simply tank all the damage by flying a frigate at 200km of the NPC and doing the damage with a No-Tank Ship. With the AI set-up you have to come with somehow balanced ships which is much closer to what is necessary for PVP which also mean you get better fights. Furthermore NPC-AI will make it also more interesting to fight against pirates in a plex, because NPC might switch their target to the new incomming pirate.

With regards to point 6. Currently if you want to flip a system, then the FC calls everyone to come as big as possible just for the matter of DPS. Such an approach will be naturally in danger if point 6 is implemented. This is fine, because bringing as big as possible ships tends to exclude young players. If point 6 is implemented, then the FC has an incentive to invite players with small ships for the bunker bash too. They than have to take care of keeping the small plexes clean which forces fleets to have a wide spectrum of ships which I think is in fafour of PVP and enables tactical decisions.
Mortromain
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#263 - 2012-08-23 15:32:20 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Just knowing the location of a fleet is not getting a fight. You then have the endless shipping up and down. Your original complaint was this is a "get fight button." Its not really that, but yes it would *greatly* help people who want to pvp to find fights. Which is a huge problem in eve whether you realize it or not.


I realize that this is not a huge problem in FW, you have tools to get fight : intel chat, scouts, map statistics (wich include FW stat), and system status monitoring. I like this process, so i would consider it a feature removal. But i understand that some people don't like this.


Cearain wrote:
As far as reducing the rewards - well if they make plexing a pvp mechanic people might actually need those rewards to buy new ships. If you are losing your ship and therefore not capturing every other plex that lp might be handy just to replace your ships. Reducing the rewards based on the current pve set up is not wise - unless the intent is to leave it as a pve mechanic.


I'm not sure i understand what you call a pvp mechanics in this case, Do you mean that capturing can only be done upon PvP fighting?
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#264 - 2012-08-23 17:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Axl Borlara
I've only read the last couple of pages, so I may have missed things...

NPCs
Required in plexs to avoid gun-less plex farming
Need to be killed to avoid gun-less plex farming (may include *low* hp structures as well as ships)
Fairly easy to kill
Aggro only when shot at. Allows pvp to happen in plexs with less interference

Plex Defence
Timer runs back to zero when no attackers are in range. Reduces the willingness of attackers to run away from defenders instead of pvping. Reduces need for defenders to sit at the button doing nothing for no reward
The plex itself should have a (much longer) timer which also runs down when no attackers are in range. It will eventually defensive plex itself away if not attacked.

No defensive plexing requirement avoids the issue of lack of reward.
Plexs (eventually) defend themselves, causing system control to slowly(!) revert to stable.
Attackers need to constantly attack over time to gain system control.
Attackers will have need to be able to shoot things and run away less, providing more pvp with defenders

No system control level above vulnerable. No lp rewards for plexing an already vulnerable system.

That seems to fix the obvious issues while (hopefully) using technically possible and simple options.

Edit:
For added bonus, increase the benefits of controlling a system based on how long its been controlled for.
Mortromain
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#265 - 2012-08-23 17:34:48 UTC
in fact i think you are misunderstanding me :

when i said that defensive plexing should get rewards, it is because it is currently the only way to diminish the contestation. But like i said, remove D-plexing if it is unwanted. If the contestation diminish by itself overtime, then you can effectively defend by protecting the plexes from hostile, but i still think you should get something from driving WT away from the plex.

It make me think of a way to balance NPCs.

The problem right now is that without NPCs, farming plexes will become too easy, but if a player is under NPC fire, he will avoid a fight inside the plex. and the plex is the reason to fight.

But what if while the button is being captured, NPCs from both faction were being spawned, this way you have npcs firing on both fleets, it might be difficult to balance the spawnings but here is an example for a minor plex :

Upon the plex spawning (done only by an attacker because defensive plexing is unwanted), 5 weak defender frigate spawn, once they are destroyed, 5 mediumly strong frigates spawn for each side when the defenders NPC are dead, 5 strong frigate spawn for the defenders and 5 medium for the attackers, the goal is to have around the same dps on both sides.
if a the defender kills all attacking NPC, the plex is reset and the present defender gets lp for protecting it.

but maybe it's crap, it's just brainstorming

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#266 - 2012-08-23 19:24:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Mortromain wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Just knowing the location of a fleet is not getting a fight. You then have the endless shipping up and down. Your original complaint was this is a "get fight button." Its not really that, but yes it would *greatly* help people who want to pvp to find fights. Which is a huge problem in eve whether you realize it or not.


I realize that this is not a huge problem in FW, you have tools to get fight : intel chat, scouts, map statistics (wich include FW stat), and system status monitoring. I like this process, so i would consider it a feature removal. But i understand that some people don't like this.


FW is probably the best in eve but its still pretty terrible. It is not that rare to go 2 or 3 hours without a good fight.

All of eve has intel chat, scouts and map statistics. The only added tool fw has is the fw stat sheet which really isn't that much more helpful in finding a fight.

Like I said you might be fine with getting about 1 decent fight per hour. But its a big reason why eve is criticized for being boring and slow. FW can be a mechanic where people could regularly get 7-10 fights every 2 hours. People like you who like looking at maps and have alts scout around could still do that in other areas like wormholes, null sec, and low sec generally as a pirate. FW could be an option for people who like a bit more frequent combat.



Mortromain wrote:
Cearain wrote:
As far as reducing the rewards - well if they make plexing a pvp mechanic people might actually need those rewards to buy new ships. If you are losing your ship and therefore not capturing every other plex that lp might be handy just to replace your ships. Reducing the rewards based on the current pve set up is not wise - unless the intent is to leave it as a pve mechanic.


I'm not sure i understand what you call a pvp mechanics in this case, Do you mean that capturing can only be done upon PvP fighting?


No.

But if ccp did things like let us know when military plexes are attacked so players could defend them, and had a form of timer count down if peope warped out of the plex when an enemy was on grid. And if they made it so the rats dps don't make it so people can't fly pvp ships. These are things that would make plexing a pvp mechanic instead of the pve mechanic it is now.

If they did these things you would probably see the number of pvp fights per plex captured go from 2% to 70%.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Mortromain
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#267 - 2012-08-24 08:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mortromain
Cearain wrote:
FW is probably the best in eve but its still pretty terrible. It is not that rare to go 2 or 3 hours without a good fight.

All of eve has intel chat, scouts and map statistics. The only added tool fw has is the fw stat sheet which really isn't that much more helpful in finding a fight.

Like I said you might be fine with getting about 1 decent fight per hour. But its a big reason why eve is criticized for being boring and slow. FW can be a mechanic where people could regularly get 7-10 fights every 2 hours. People like you who like looking at maps and have alts scout around could still do that in other areas like wormholes, null sec, and low sec generally as a pirate. FW could be an option for people who like a bit more frequent combat.


i did low sec pvp, but the problem is that it is very difficult to make a living out of it and you indeed can roam for 2 hours without finding targets.

FW allows you to find them really quickly.

The fact is that i don't think that knowing where the adverse militia is will increase the number of fight you get. With Eve rules, people will only fight if they think they have a chance, if you know where your enemy is , a small fleet will get blobed everytime then flee.

Your wish of getting 10 fights every 2 hours is possible only if the two sides are of the same strength. The losing side will not come again and again if they loose. And if the sides are actually even, the fights happening must produce enough income for both sides to replace ship loss, or it will suffocate both sides.


What i am afraid of with your proposal is that the losing side can not force a big fleet to spread, making every fight lost in advance.

I completely agree with putting very low dps NPCs though, make them tanky enough that capturing a plex in an undersize ship is impossible, but without dps (maybe just put a structure to destroy, its boring but it won't affect pvp)
fon Luck
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#268 - 2012-08-24 09:46:34 UTC
My suggestion:
1. Remove plexs.
2. Give much more LP for killing WT.
3. Increase system contested level from killing WT.

Sorry for my english.
Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#269 - 2012-08-24 11:04:49 UTC
fon Luck wrote:
My suggestion:
1. Remove plexs.
2. Give much more LP for killing WT.
3. Increase system contested level from killing WT.

Sorry for my english.


This will simply create a big hole for missuse. In such a scenario you just get an Alt in the enemy milita and then kill him all day to farm LP. Sounds not good to me.
Thaddeus Rees
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#270 - 2012-08-24 18:58:35 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:

I do not like the idea that NPC is the only defence, there should be some reason for players to defend.
Anyway if you remove all npc and players can be with pvp fitted ship does not change the fact that they escape too if you chase them away with too power full ship.

NPC is not the solution or the problem, there should be some reason/reward to chase enemy away or kill them and take the plex they started.


QFT. I fully support balancing NPC's should they remain in the plexing system, the feedback has been spot on about balancing tankability and DPS levels, but Bad Messenger is spot on here.

In the end, whether you have NPC's dictating ship types or not, this does not address the core issue of incentivizing two players fighting to the death over that plex to begin with. We can hold guns to people's heads and force them to fly whatever ship we want using the NPC AI, or we can give players enough of a reason to stand their ground and not run away all the time. Personally I think the latter of the two is more important.

How can we incentivize PvP in the plexes over constantly running away? Lots of ways. We can give players more visibilty, making plexers easier to locate and engage, so hiding your activity is much more difficult. We can address the fact that defensive plexing is an unpaid boring chore, effectively rendering half of all plexes undesirable as an activity to participate in. We can shorten the distance between the warp-in and the capture point, increasing the risk players take on and making that risk a PvP risk rather than a PvE risk. We can have timer progress slowly roll back when plexes are unoccupied, making it so players that bounce all the time whenever someone comes after them end up neither profiting nor contributing to the warzone.

Yes, this is a thread focused on the NPC balance itself, but Bad Messenger makes an outstanding point that even if you had no NPC's regulating fits at all, if the motivation is there to complete the plex (either offensively or defensively) and there is little reward in running away constantly, players will bring the fit they need to win against the PvP threat anyways.



Honestly, I like the idea that it should be players defending plexes. And although I've tried that, I meet ALOT of triple stabbed merlins. If you incentivise defensive plexing somehow, while allowing offensive plexes to take an efficient PvP fit then those of us that want it would get the FW we dream of, where we actually fight relatively even fights against other players.

The problem is that anything that makes it possible to ignore Npc's in favour of PvP is likely to exacerbate the issue of farming alts... (Yes I'm looking at you minimatar).



One final problem, if you reduced the range of the warpin from the button with Npc's as they are, there would be no option other than to take a triple stabbed merlin offensive plexing.
The ONLY thing making it possible to defend an offensive plexing site with Npc's as they are, is the ability to burn away from the Npc's with a mwd, and fight the defending pilot without needing to tank the Npc's dps.

Please don't do anything rash that makes it Harder to PvP while offensive plexing.
Maybe have the Npc's stop shooting for as long as there is another non offensive militia in the plex...
(Yes including neutrals, I don't want pies driving me out of offensive plexing either!!!)
Justin Cody
War Firm
#271 - 2012-08-26 04:17:04 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alright folks, as stated in the latest FW blog, there are certain points in Factional Warfare that still need to be looked at after Inferno.

One of these are the NPCs; we all have grown to hate them as they jam you non stop for 5 minutes, or laugh at them when speed tanking them while capturing a complex. So, let's try to find ways to make them interesting here.


  • Think a FW NPC is plain broken, crap or annoying? Post its exact name here, and explain why and what. Again, please remember, this discussion is about FW NPCs, not mission / deadspace / Incursion / Sleepers or whatever (we know there are a lot of them to fix in other features as well, but let's not get lost here shall we?).
  • What do you think about Navy NPCs when you go to enemy high-security space? What would you do about that?
  • What about the standing mechanic that govern NPC attack behavior? When do you feel they should engage you? Low standings? Capturing a complex?



Thanks for your feedback.


Truncated for ease.

- 1) broken is that you can capture the plex without killing the defending npc's who sorta shrug at you as you warp off victoriously having orbited them for a period between 10 and 20 minutes on average.

-2) Navy NPC's in high sec should apply points before webs to targets of enemy factions (though perhaps not pirates...cause I am one and I like them helping me to warp faster)

-3) NPC's in low sec should attack any non-militia regardless of standings as they are trespassing on military property...additionally they should at some level (perhaps major and major unrestricted) apply webs, though perhaps not warp scrambling devices. To discourage solo activities on noob alts perhaps all FW plexes should have some form of arp scrambling NPC with the number and toughness of the npc's rising with the supposed plex difficulty rise.

I know this is supposed to be a low barrier to pvp, but honestly it is more of a farm system than one that encourages a fight.

On to the ihubs

-4) Ihubs can be hit whenever the system is vulnerable and it flips at the next down time...so a system ebing vulnerable is the same as being lost...except that it still spawns plexes (ideally to let defenders defensively plex I'd gather).

The problem with defensive plexing is that there is no just reward for the work. You get increased standings gains (they pat you on teh butt and send you on your way). So no one bothers defensively plexing a system that is vulnerable.

The other effect of vulnerability is that there is nothing to force a fight on a certain time table like in 0.0 sov. All the enemy has to do is wait until you are bored/asleep/ @ work and they can shoot it with a fleet of stealth bombers, thrashers and tier 3 bc's and it flips. Defense is pointless...you just have to farm lp offensively now.

Traditionally in EVE game mechanics the defender is given some advantage....like knowing when the enemy has to strike.

A simple Player Owned Customs Office (POCO) has the best mechanic for this. It has a window of a couple hours when it could come out of RF. As it stands the FW i-hubs have no RF and might as well be lost right when system is vulnerable for all the practicality of it.

-5) ihub HP is fine, perhaps a boost to its passive recharge rate so that a fleet of 50 or so thrashers can't do it would be nice. or 25% resists even across the board to harden it up a bit. Add a small bit of challenge for attackers. Perhaps have a nice fleet of hostile NPC's protecting it instead of an RF timer. They come fully equipped with ECM, webs, points and might as well be a small incusion force for its difficulty.

Either way the current system is geared towards farming rather than playing the game for any RP reason. The flavor isn't there. Perhaps more live events in FW would help.
CaleAdaire
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#272 - 2012-08-27 02:11:01 UTC
I just want to know why it is when I was in the militia, I would rush in to stop the take over of site by gallente and the NPC's (supposed to be caldari...) start shooting me! Stop friendly fire?

Trust in God, Have Faith in Fusion.

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#273 - 2012-08-27 12:00:29 UTC
Thaddeus Rees wrote:
The problem is that anything that makes it possible to ignore Npc's in favour of PvP is likely to exacerbate the issue of farming alts... (Yes I'm looking at you minimatar).

One final problem, if you reduced the range of the warpin from the button with Npc's as they are, there would be no option other than to take a triple stabbed merlin offensive plexing.
The ONLY thing making it possible to defend an offensive plexing site with Npc's as they are, is the ability to burn away from the Npc's with a mwd, and fight the defending pilot without needing to tank the Npc's dps.

Please don't do anything rash that makes it Harder to PvP while offensive plexing.
Maybe have the Npc's stop shooting for as long as there is another non offensive militia in the plex...
(Yes including neutrals, I don't want pies driving me out of offensive plexing either!!!)


The whole purpose of this thread is to ask players how they want the NPC's balanced for fairness, and yet you argue that we can't make a set of changes because the NPC's are currently imbalanced. Roll

I don't say this to be adversarial, you make excellent points, I'm just using this as an opportunity to remind players that the NPC's will almost certainly be rebalanced along with the plexing mechanics. ALL variables are in motion here, nothing should be taken for granted as it stands today.

And for the record, NPC's that de-agress upon enemy player entry is my absolute favorite solution to a lot of these issues. If the timer stopped and the NPC's deaggressed whenever a player warped in, we could have our PvP unfettered, and you couldn't just use an alt to trigger the de-aggression because you would be stopping the timer in the process.

Regardless of whatever form the NPC's take in the end, there will inevitably be some optimal plex-running ship that is discovered, there will still be some degree of farming, even if the ship used for this purpose is much more substantial than a triple-stabbed merlin. The days of farming complaints will certainly never end, the goal should be to continue to make these as PvP oriented as possible with the minimal amount of NPC involvement as possible to reduce speed-farming. I do NOT want these to become mini-incursions where the risk comes from dying to the NPC's themselves.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#274 - 2012-08-27 13:25:23 UTC
A big NO for the following points!

Justin Cody wrote:

-2) Navy NPC's in high sec should apply points before webs to targets of enemy factions (though perhaps not pirates...cause I am one and I like them helping me to warp faster)

-3) NPC's in low sec should attack any non-militia regardless of standings as they are trespassing on military property...additionally they should at some level (perhaps major and major unrestricted) apply webs, though perhaps not warp scrambling devices. To discourage solo activities on noob alts perhaps all FW plexes should have some form of arp scrambling NPC with the number and toughness of the npc's rising with the supposed plex difficulty rise.

-5) ihub HP is fine, perhaps a boost to its passive recharge rate so that a fleet of 50 or so thrashers can't do it would be nice. or 25% resists even across the board to harden it up a bit. Add a small bit of challenge for attackers. Perhaps have a nice fleet of hostile NPC's protecting it instead of an RF timer. They come fully equipped with ECM, webs, points and might as well be a small incusion force for its difficulty.


In detail:
2- If Navy NPC apply points in High-Sec then you make High-Sec complete save for FW members belonging to the faction of the high sec you are in. On the other hand any voyage into enemy high-sec for the opposite faction will get impossible. This will kill a lot of PVP fun. Therefore a clear NO!

3- Solo activites on noob alts are easily reduced if you need to kill the NPC. Webs or scrams of guarding NPC will completely kill PVP. Everyone will run in Stabbed ships and warp out on every sign on danger. If you force people to bring at least some useful ship and play around with the NPC then they might fight if they feel superior or you might be able to snag them because they are busy.

5- Being able to crush an unguarded IHub with frigates within one hour is fine. Don't force us to bring the 0.0 blob for this job. If you really want to encourage fight then you might think about informing while milita if an IHub is aggressed.
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#275 - 2012-08-28 17:05:11 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

And for the record, NPC's that de-agress upon enemy player entry is my absolute favorite solution to a lot of these issues. If the timer stopped and the NPC's deaggressed whenever a player warped in, we could have our PvP unfettered, and you couldn't just use an alt to trigger the de-aggression because you would be stopping the timer in the process.


Can you explain this a bit more?

As I understand it:
Offensive plexer is killing NPC's.
Defender warps in
NPCs stop shooting offensive plexer and the timer stops
Both players shoot each other

Surely that would just create speed tanked *defenders*?
What would stop me, as a defender, warping in using a speed tanked slasher (for example) and just flying around until the plexer gets bored and runs away?
I can stop the timer and be impossible to catch. The offensive plexer can't do anything except find another plex.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#276 - 2012-08-28 17:44:22 UTC
Yeah, the straight de-aggress is one of those things that look awesome on paper but is destined to be 'meh', worse still it does not really solve anything as the majority of plexers will still run 90% of the time so you end up wasting resources coding something that has a fringe effect at best.

Quoting myself from page one as I do not think it can be done 'properly' without an AI overhaul.
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
NPC's could all be the grossly overpowered Concord vessels if only the AI/behaviour was coded right. Not sure if the actual ships need much changing at all to be honest, eWar could do with a downwards tweak but I am hoping that the eWar revision will make any such change pointless .. you are still planning on revising eWar I take it?

Have them protect that which they were meant to first and foremost .. the complex, aka. timer, instead of everything with the proper standings.

- If a person enters capture range (CR), check standings, if hated -> shoot him down.
- If a person leaves capture range, but has taken no hostile action -> keep him locked but do nothing further.
- If more than one with hated standings are in CR, then use threat list akin to the one used by Incursion Sansha.
- If a person is in plex but not in CR, lock him up -> do nothing further.
- If a person is in plex but not in CR and takes hostile action against guards -> shoot him down but never leave striking distance of timer which is to be protected.
* Basically have them ignore anyone who is not a direct threat to the plex or its personnel.

Add some sentries around the timer to assist with LR targets (especially in Gallente plexes where NPC weapons are worse than BB guns) and to make the solo AB frig capture an impossibility. It is a military installation damnit, surely they have some gun emplacements .. even the smallest of the small pirate installations have some defensive guns in place!

The NPCs are now something to do when no pew is present and they don't interfere with the pew when it is (provided it doesn't happen on the timer Big smile).

Now, I understand that CCP are loathe to mess around with AI and NPC power as the rats are shared with missions both in and out of FW.
I also understand that CCP has said they would like worm AI to be implemented everywhere but that the server performance is an issue, yet they created Incursions with that exact (or close enough) AI system and by my reckoning Incursions are probably spawning as many if not more NPCs/plexes as FW.

Long-term fix: Create an entirely new subset of rats specifically for FW, with worm/Incursion AI.

Short-term fix: Something like in the quote above, should be possible to add some AI behaviour without breaking rats elsewhere as long as it is tied to FW specific mechanics (ie. timer, timer-range sphere). Or something as simple as destructible sentries balanced to suit the three size plexes to make the use of "inappropriate" ships (read: gunless frigs/speed tankers) impossible.

Either way, not sure is is prudent to look at the NPC's as a stand-alone thing as part of a solution could for example be the timer that counts backwards automatically when hostile leaves .. the beauty of FW is the interconnectedness of all things, use/abuse that when cooking ideas.

PS: How about adding LP-for-Kills x2 (or more) to value of a given plex when it is capped as a little extra incentive to kill each other inside.
PPS: No matter what, the farm has to be addressed as a first priority if any headway towards the pew/tug-o-war of old is to be made. The idea that each side takes turns steam-rolling the other to get to the ATM is just stupid and makes for really crappy reading (mostly been whoring it up lately Smile) .. I can empathize with the people complaining about FW spamming WarTac these days as most threads are devoid of content, was better pre-patch when we smacked about actual engagements rather than "today we farmed ourselves back to tier 4-5!!!!11111".
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#277 - 2012-08-28 17:47:25 UTC
Axl Borlara wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

And for the record, NPC's that de-agress upon enemy player entry is my absolute favorite solution to a lot of these issues. If the timer stopped and the NPC's deaggressed whenever a player warped in, we could have our PvP unfettered, and you couldn't just use an alt to trigger the de-aggression because you would be stopping the timer in the process.


Can you explain this a bit more?

As I understand it:
Offensive plexer is killing NPC's.
Defender warps in
NPCs stop shooting offensive plexer and the timer stops
Both players shoot each other

Surely that would just create speed tanked *defenders*?
What would stop me, as a defender, warping in using a speed tanked slasher (for example) and just flying around until the plexer gets bored and runs away?
I can stop the timer and be impossible to catch. The offensive plexer can't do anything except find another plex.


It's not really any different that the current scenario, except that now the attacker wouldn't have to deal with NPC DPS while he kills the defender.

I'm not suggesting that any defender inside the plex stops the timer, I still think the stopping of the timer should take place only when the enemy is also in range of the button - you're absolutely right we don't want speedy slashers orbiting at 100km and stopping timers.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#278 - 2012-08-28 18:00:07 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Either way, not sure is is prudent to look at the NPC's as a stand-alone thing as part of a solution could for example be the timer that counts backwards automatically when hostile leaves .. the beauty of FW is the interconnectedness of all things, use/abuse that when cooking ideas.


Veshta's absolutely right, the NPC issue is but one piece in this puzzle, and MUST be fixed alongside things like the backwards timer, the farming of the WZC scheme, the system upgrades, all of it. This is certainly how I'm approaching this, and thankfully CCP is also taking a rather holistic approach in addressing these issues from the preliminary ideas they are tossing around internally. There is no "silver bullet", neither CCP nor myself are naive enough to think that there is. I'm also thankful that I haven't heard any limits yet on what can be gutted and overhauled, up to and including creating custom NPC's to replace existing plex content.

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Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2012-08-29 16:28:45 UTC
That's encouraging, except that some things need fixing ASAP.
A few relatively minor changes *now* that remove the bulk of the farmers will be enough to keep people happy and still involved in FW until the rest of the fixes come along.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#280 - 2012-08-30 00:12:00 UTC
One thing that i don't know if has been mentioned.

But one problem with pvp in plexes is that the NPC's tip the scales.. You don't nessisarily want to 1v1 another merlin if yours is taking fire from npc's as well.

this might not exactly be a problem or a fault but it certainly does not encourage pvp.

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