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FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#221 - 2012-07-27 18:13:11 UTC
I havn't read anything here, just want to mention that first.

I say make FW rats point. would make it harder to farm plexes while avoiding pvp.

Ohh and make them not attack neutrals.. Being attacked by the Caldari navy when you're actually in good standing with it and not a part of any militia is kinda silly.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#222 - 2012-07-27 23:43:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Dynast
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I havn't read anything here, just want to mention that first.

I say make FW rats point. would make it harder to farm plexes while avoiding pvp.

Ohh and make them not attack neutrals.. Being attacked by the Caldari navy when you're actually in good standing with it and not a part of any militia is kinda silly.

Actually it's absolutely appropriate, you have no business in a military installation, and you sure as hell have no business shooting FW pod pilots in their own military installation. The use of standings by FW Plex NPCs should be removed entirely, it's not appropriate to the setting. It shouldn't matter how good your standings are, if you're not part of the appropriate militia you get shot.

There's increasing militia use of fiddled standings (sometimes at corp level) to make FW plex rats ignore pilots. The outcome is hostile militia pilots "capturing" a plex while the Empire military just sits there on it's ass. Though really, this too could be fixed by requiring the rats to be killed to cap the plex.
Atfal alNudjum
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#223 - 2012-07-28 00:30:48 UTC
Just to re-iterate what players have been saying about the current state of affairs within FW. This is a conversation that occurred in local after a minmatar FW player's CNI was killed.

[08:24:36] EVE System > Channel changed to Local : Haras
[08:24:40] Minmatar Player > gf
[08:24:52] Amarr Player > Sorry mate I brought something a little bigger this time
[08:24:58] Minmatar Player > I don't really care
[08:25:03] Minmatar Player > I still make 1b/h per char
[08:25:04] Minmatar Player > and I run 3
[08:25:40] Amarr Player > Really? I thought you were alright. Apparently I was wrong
[08:25:59] Minmatar Player > All I care about is milking as much isk I can untill ccp patches this broken ****

Not players names have been replaced rather than place individuals in the spotlight.

So still making 1 bill / hour per character, incursions were nerfed for this kind of isk output...fixing sooner rather than later would be good.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#224 - 2012-07-28 01:43:05 UTC
Dynast wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I havn't read anything here, just want to mention that first.

I say make FW rats point. would make it harder to farm plexes while avoiding pvp.

Ohh and make them not attack neutrals.. Being attacked by the Caldari navy when you're actually in good standing with it and not a part of any militia is kinda silly.

Actually it's absolutely appropriate, you have no business in a military installation, and you sure as hell have no business shooting FW pod pilots in their own military installation. The use of standings by FW Plex NPCs should be removed entirely, it's not appropriate to the setting. It shouldn't matter how good your standings are, if you're not part of the appropriate militia you get shot.

There's increasing militia use of fiddled standings (sometimes at corp level) to make FW plex rats ignore pilots. The outcome is hostile militia pilots "capturing" a plex while the Empire military just sits there on it's ass. Though really, this too could be fixed by requiring the rats to be killed to cap the plex.


TBH i don't really care about the rats.

All i want is the point thing because its way to easy to farm plexes with no risk.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#225 - 2012-07-28 13:50:10 UTC
Atfal alNudjum wrote:
Just to re-iterate what players have been saying about the current state of affairs within FW. This is a conversation that occurred in local after a minmatar FW player's CNI was killed.

[08:24:36] EVE System > Channel changed to Local : Haras
[08:24:40] Minmatar Player > gf
[08:24:52] Amarr Player > Sorry mate I brought something a little bigger this time
[08:24:58] Minmatar Player > I don't really care
[08:25:03] Minmatar Player > I still make 1b/h per char
[08:25:04] Minmatar Player > and I run 3
[08:25:40] Amarr Player > Really? I thought you were alright. Apparently I was wrong
[08:25:59] Minmatar Player > All I care about is milking as much isk I can untill ccp patches this broken ****

Not players names have been replaced rather than place individuals in the spotlight.

So still making 1 bill / hour per character, incursions were nerfed for this kind of isk output...fixing sooner rather than later would be good.



I think its dangerous to compare plexing to a pve activity like incursions. At least how plexing should be. Mainly it was the high sec incursions that were the problem.

Also I think there is a bit of bs going on about his income. If you want a higher than say 4-5k per lp then you have to spend quite a bit of time trading.

I don't want the rewards changed. I want the mechanics changed so that when you enter a plex more often than not you will have a pvp fight and maybe even 2 or 3 fights per plex. If they do that then the rewards are not too much at all.


Plexing should be something such that if you are medium at pvp you can pretty much cover your losses. If you are really good at pvp you can cover your losses and even make some profit. If you are bad a pvp you won't cover your losses and will have to use alternate income to cover your losses until you learn to be good a pvp.


So its not really the rewards that are too much its the fact that you can earn them with no pvp.


If however they do make plexign more pvp they will have to nerf missions. Cut mission lp by 30-50%.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#226 - 2012-07-31 05:34:21 UTC
To give a new dimension to Eve, I think it would be excellent to create more interaction between PVP and PVE.

Players should have the possibility to create missions in the NPC Corporations. Agents could give these missions as they give level 1 to 4 mission now.

A character that have done missions for a corporation receive standings and Loyalty Points.

With these LP he can buy items.

But imagine that he could use it to create missions.
A level 1 mission cost 2000 LP and a Level 4 50000 LP for example.
The type of mission would depend of the corporation, but the player that create it should have lot of possibilities to customize it with NPC escort, type of ship expected etc...
All these missions should have a PVP aspect like going in 0,0, or low sec, or factional warfare aspect etc.

If the mission is a success the character could double his LP, but lose all if it is a fail. He could never do the mission himself.

We can also imagine NPC mission like courrier that could be created by trader player to avoid them the boring freighter trips. (with all the risk of an autopilot move of freight)

Loyalty Points could be use to create NPC Bounties... Imagine a player hunted bye the member of an NPC corporation...

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.

Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#227 - 2012-08-01 09:22:01 UTC
Is it possible to make LP's delayed like in incursions?. Make pilots gain LP tokens and LP is only awarded when the system falls/decontests

Actually I believe I explained this in another post a year ago:

Offensive side begins plexing. As the system reaches 50% the LP token valve is turned on. From that point on both sides try to get the system to 0% or 100% respectively. Each plex gives some LP tokens (Both defensive and offensive). Actual LP is only then awarded when the system falls/decontests.
RangerGord
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#228 - 2012-08-05 23:19:20 UTC
I know so far a bulk of this thread has been about FW NPCs, but can regular NPCs at least be required to follow ship fitting rules? like seeing 9 turrets and cruise missiles and defender missiles coming off a Raven... if I can't fit 11 highs on any ship they shouldn't be able to either.

This problem filters all the way down to even the frigate NPCs, of which some have so many turret models enveloping their ships you can't single out exactly how many of each turret they actually have (I've got a great picture of a Minmatar faction Breacher, but can't find it at the moment).
RangerGord
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#229 - 2012-08-05 23:22:31 UTC
Oh, and this is also the same problem with Incursion NPCs, they (even the frigates) can do everything all at once as if they have too many modules fit/active at the same time. They fly thousands of meters a sec, have huge omni tanks, huge omni damage, vast amounts of ewar, and they never run out of cap.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#230 - 2012-08-06 04:19:25 UTC
1. Make some of the frigs web for the love of all thats holy. Being able to do major plexes in a frig with no guns is completely stupid and completely fucks up the Risk/rewards ratio

2. Make is harder to do the plexes without risk. Right now we have a ton of players using stabbed no gun t1 frigs that grind the plexes all day long with no risk what so ever. The risk/reward ratio is completely ****** up, you can get billions every week with a bloody 2 week old alt. I don't know what you should do about this, make the rats point, remove the accel gates or move the capture points closer to the warp in.. I don't know i'm not a dev but you need to do something

Doing FW should not be risk free.. It is a PVP activity, not a carebear grind. As it is you can do it without any risk with no effort what so ever.



FW is a PVP activity FFS..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Cheekybiatch
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#231 - 2012-08-14 01:11:51 UTC
Like it but no ewar please.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#232 - 2012-08-14 19:12:06 UTC
Okay FW is totaly broken, everyone fears the minmatar farming armada and CCP does.... nothing.
First step it would be to end this farmfest and then looking at what can be done.
How long will this farmfest go on? How many months? That is totaly weird.
Give a fast fix that rats should be killed in plexes so that we have a fast problem fixing and after that we can improve more. But actually fw is completely broken, minnies making 1b per day and it cannot get worse.
FAST FIX NEEDED!
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#233 - 2012-08-14 20:23:18 UTC
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
Okay FW is totaly broken, everyone fears the minmatar farming armada
Fearing an army of unfit ships.... Roll
Thaddeus Rees
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#234 - 2012-08-14 20:33:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Thaddeus Rees
Ok, so I've spent quite a bit more time in FW than I had when I posted before,
and I believe people are correct in saying that completely removing the NPC's is not the answer.

I can't say what the final solution is, but there is something that is certain - if NPC's are to stay, they must all be equally tankable.
I am referring here to the number of missiles in caldari plexes that can't be speed tanked in the same way as gallente plexes.


Also, and perhaps most importantly - make it so that plexers have to kill the rats.
I am sick to death of chasing down caldari plexers only to find they have two warp core stabs on.
(I could not even count how many have warped out in flames with a scram on them.)

Making it so that the rats must be killed, would prevent speed tanking in stabbed plexing ships with no thought to combat effectiveness, thus reducing the feesability for using warp core stabs.

(Also, couldn't you make it so that warp core stabs stop you from being able to target anything? Twisted )
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#235 - 2012-08-22 06:48:59 UTC
Thaddeus Rees wrote:
Ok, so I've spent quite a bit more time in FW than I had when I posted before,
and I believe people are correct in saying that completely removing the NPC's is not the answer.

I can't say what the final solution is, but there is something that is certain - if NPC's are to stay, they must all be equally tankable.
I am referring here to the number of missiles in caldari plexes that can't be speed tanked in the same way as gallente plexes.


Also, and perhaps most importantly - make it so that plexers have to kill the rats.
I am sick to death of chasing down caldari plexers only to find they have two warp core stabs on.
(I could not even count how many have warped out in flames with a scram on them.)

Making it so that the rats must be killed, would prevent speed tanking in stabbed plexing ships with no thought to combat effectiveness, thus reducing the feesability for using warp core stabs.

(Also, couldn't you make it so that warp core stabs stop you from being able to target anything? Twisted )


I do not like the idea that NPC is the only defence, there should be some reason for players to defend.
Anyway if you remove all npc and players can be with pvp fitted ship does not change the fact that they escape too if you chase them away with too power full ship.

NPC is not the solution or the problem, there should be some reason/reward to chase enemy away or kill them and take the plex they started.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#236 - 2012-08-22 13:33:42 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
Okay FW is totaly broken, everyone fears the minmatar farming armada
Fearing an army of unfit ships.... Roll



Its how you win this war - you know destroy your enemies will!!!! Look how many people fear them so much they can only think to join them.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Mortromain
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#237 - 2012-08-22 14:00:52 UTC
i don't know if this has been said (too many pages for me) :

first, i agree with the fact that you should have to kill all npc's to capture a plex, it forbid speed tanking a plex.
i think you should remove the timer too, just make them captured by NPC killing, right now, even if you kill the npc's, you have little interest in being with a fleet when plexing and ithat is not good if you want to promote fleet fights.

I would not recommend to enhance the NPC's AI, switching targets will force people to plex in pve fits (like with incursions), and people in PvE fits will avoid PvP fights.
I think you should also promote farmer hunting, give reward to people who defend plexes.

For example, when an attacker leave a plex without capturing it, put a 5 min timer (active when a defender is present) to reset the plex and give a reward to the defender.

And please give reward to defensive plexing, i want to defend my faction territory, but i need to replace my ships too.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#238 - 2012-08-22 14:28:07 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:

I do not like the idea that NPC is the only defence, there should be some reason for players to defend.
Anyway if you remove all npc and players can be with pvp fitted ship does not change the fact that they escape too if you chase them away with too power full ship.

NPC is not the solution or the problem, there should be some reason/reward to chase enemy away or kill them and take the plex they started.


QFT. I fully support balancing NPC's should they remain in the plexing system, the feedback has been spot on about balancing tankability and DPS levels, but Bad Messenger is spot on here.

In the end, whether you have NPC's dictating ship types or not, this does not address the core issue of incentivizing two players fighting to the death over that plex to begin with. We can hold guns to people's heads and force them to fly whatever ship we want using the NPC AI, or we can give players enough of a reason to stand their ground and not run away all the time. Personally I think the latter of the two is more important.

How can we incentivize PvP in the plexes over constantly running away? Lots of ways. We can give players more visibilty, making plexers easier to locate and engage, so hiding your activity is much more difficult. We can address the fact that defensive plexing is an unpaid boring chore, effectively rendering half of all plexes undesirable as an activity to participate in. We can shorten the distance between the warp-in and the capture point, increasing the risk players take on and making that risk a PvP risk rather than a PvE risk. We can have timer progress slowly roll back when plexes are unoccupied, making it so players that bounce all the time whenever someone comes after them end up neither profiting nor contributing to the warzone.

Yes, this is a thread focused on the NPC balance itself, but Bad Messenger makes an outstanding point that even if you had no NPC's regulating fits at all, if the motivation is there to complete the plex (either offensively or defensively) and there is little reward in running away constantly, players will bring the fit they need to win against the PvP threat anyways.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#239 - 2012-08-22 14:59:21 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
We can address the fact that defensive plexing is an unpaid boring chore, effectively rendering half of all plexes undesirable as an activity to participate in.



All good stuff except the above. Giving rewards for plexing will not make it a pvp activity. I hope we have learned this lesson from inferno.

There are numerous reasons why no direct reward for d-plexing is a good plan. Including encouraging pvp and allowing the smaller militia to establish a foothold. Giving rewards just does the opposite. It entrenches the winning team and it gives people a reason to stay docked while the enemy captures an offensive plex instead of fighting them for it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#240 - 2012-08-22 15:34:40 UTC
Cearain wrote:
There are numerous reasons why no direct reward for d-plexing is a good plan. Including encouraging pvp and allowing the smaller militia to establish a foothold. Giving rewards just does the opposite. It entrenches the winning team and it gives people a reason to stay docked while the enemy captures an offensive plex instead of fighting them for it.


Well, there is theory, and there's practice. I'll shelve theory for a second, and I'll even shelve suggesting a solution for one moment. Let's simply talk about some problems that are emerging on the server.

The bottom line is that defensive plexing in its current form is nearly 100% undesirable. The profit is purely in offensive plexing, which means that for the dominant militia, there's more incentive in allowing the enemy to plex your system without resistance, so you can turn around and profit on the takeback. The winning militia is farming the underdog however you slice it, and to resist this advantage we have the nearly absurd situation of militias stopping at the point of taking space because it hands more money to the enemy.

The problem you fear is already taking place - pilots stay docked when the enemy comes to plex their system because its more profitable to plex once you've lost your space and are taking it back. Refusing to put up resistance to offensive plexing efforts is by definition an enormous missed PvP opportunity. As I said at the CSM summit, this leads to deep frustration for FC's that want just want to fight a straight-up war, because pilots would rather sit in station, let the enemy take a system (or even help them bust the bunker) just so they can profit later, or in a diferent system. This is the opposite of encouraging conflict, its encouraging players to ignore each other for financial gain.

The whole mess of militias enrolling plexing alts to break the bunker busting "hostage" situation where vulnerable systems refuse to get flipped, the mess of pilots refusing to defend their space except in edge cases where you have an alliance with their ships stashed there, the mess of it being more profitable to ignore an attacker so you can attack yourself (and even there, efficiency encourages you to evade PvP offensively as well), none of this is providing the incentive for a militia to want to own all the systems, and to fight their best in every plex, and to chase off every attacker.

You may not see LP for defensive plexing as the solution Cearain, and that's fine, you're not alone in this opinion. But I think most players who have been active in Faction Warfare the last few months realize that the current incentive program is not doing a great job of encourage direct conflict over each and every individual plex, but rather fosters a trade mentality where you avoid conflict both offensively and defensively to chase the maximum profit in the system. This is unhealthy for FW.

Don't get wrong, we don't want a system where the winning militia can farm their own territory for LP endlessly through defensive plexing. I'm certainly not advocating that, we already have missions that work in this fashion and don't need to exacerbate the problem. But at the same time, I don't want to miss the opportunity to fix some major conflict driver issues because we're blindly attached to the idea of only giving half the war effort a reward of some kind.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary