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Recall Roden

Author
Bastian Valoron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2011-10-13 14:31:05 UTC
Saxon Hawke wrote:
As least most of those who rewrite history have the decency to wait until those who were actually there are in the grave.

As I said, the issue is debatable. Nevertheless, while special interest groups are always welcome to present their opinions, the Senate needs to listen to everyone, not just selected few. One must try to avoid reliance on a distorted view of the actual circumstances. Apparently, this time the side which was lobbying in favour of the voting rights removal was stronger and had more convincing arguments. Still, there is no reason to be bitter against them. While the outcome of the political process may be unpleasant at times, we must see that it is the way of the democracy. The success and prosperity our society enjoys has been created through open and friendly dialog, not through bitterness and hate.

I also continue to salute the bravery and noble spirit of the people of Placid during the Caldari occupation. All those who remain loyal to the Federation through difficult times, all those who are willing to put aside their personal gain on behalf of the common good, they are the ones whose story should be printed on all children's textbooks. Those people are the real heroes and role models, they deserve our admiration and their contributions should not go unnoticed.
Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#22 - 2011-10-13 14:55:05 UTC
Bastian Valoron wrote:
As I said, the issue is debatable. Nevertheless, while special interest groups are always welcome to present their opinions, the Senate needs to listen to everyone, not just selected few.


I am nearly dumbfounded by your glaring hypocrisy. You say the Senate needs to listen to everyone while supporting it for silencing the voices of the millions of residents living within the formerly occupied systems.

This is the mind of Gallente Progressivism? I truly shudder to think what other great reform programs you'd like to see put on the people of the Federation. What next? Poll taxes? Literacy requirements? Perhaps you could advocate moving all polling stations to Gallente Prime as a way to safeguard the ballots.
Bastian Valoron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-10-13 16:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastian Valoron
Syyl'ara wrote:
1) I think it has less to do with "boo-hoo my guy didn't win" and more to do with the whole election being an insult to the principles of democracy that you purport to defend.
The principles of democracy would have been more severely violated if our enemy of war had been able to manipulate the results. This would not have just insulted the abstract principles but posed a real, concrete threat against the very foundations of our society.

Syyl'ara wrote:
2) Never doubt, when a tyrant is rising, they will have a piece of paper that says everything they are doing is absolutely above board. Also, while I can see some arguing that the election is valid, to say it is "perfectly valid" is an insult to those in uniform who died to protect the rights of their fellow citizens that was so cowardly and easily surrendered in the halls of the government they laid their lives down for.
Since our president didn't have much background in politics before the elections, there's no way he could have somehow contributed to the Placid voting rights adjustment. He has won the support and love of the overwhelming majority of people through his vision, competence and hard work, and to call him a 'tyrant' is just offending.

I have a high respect for the views of the Federal defence forces. Those of them with whom I've discussed do not advocate the 'right' of the enemy to manipulate our elections and threaten our way of life. I'm willing to admit that it would have been interesting to see what kind of effect the Placid votes would have had on the elections, but under the circumstances present at the time, this would have undermined the whole institution of democracy, the one that those in uniform are sworn to defend.

Syyl'ara wrote:
3) You can speculate that it might not have changed, but you know a good way to find out?

Hold a special election now that the threat of widespread manipulation has abated.

I also took the liberty of illustrating how tenuous and utterly fictitious you come across as here when your statement is a nothing but a rambling series of if/maybe/could-haves.

Much like Mr Inhonores, you seem to think your baseless speculating about "might-haves" and "what-ifs" actually stands as a proper subsitute to democratically electing people.
By emphasizing the uncertainty in my estimates, I was precisely pointing out that the best that anyone can do with regard to the long past elections is just speculation. Those calling for new elections can also be seen thinking wishfully that it would lead to a different outcome.

Speculation is not a substitute for elections. There is always a need for new elections when their time comes. However, the proper time is not now when the President has just started his term of service.

Syyl'ara wrote:
4) Your own news agencies disagree with you.

Why do I know more Federal history and politics than their own defense forces?
When it comes to objective facts, news agencies are a good source of information but regarding matters of interpretation and opinion, there is no reason why an individual should not think about these things by themselves. Knowledge should not be confused with understanding.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#24 - 2011-10-13 18:35:54 UTC
Saxon Hawke wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
How you expect subjects of a occupying authority to participate in the political operations of the previous government that was forcibly ejected is beyond me.


It is the right of any citizen of a democracy to have a say in who governs them. If you deny that right, you strip the legitimacy from the system.


Considering the situation at the time, and the blackout that was in place, are you really sure you're pointing fingers at the right side in terms of who was denying you the right?

The Federation was without a leader and elections had to be conducted, the occupied systems were unfortunately ineligible to vote due to the actions of the system's occupying forces. The elections could not hold indefinitely until the situation was resolved, it's an unfortunate circumstance, and I didn't want Roden either. But regardless it was the best path forward considering the circumstances.

The Senate debated it for some time before choosing on the best course of action, you do them dishonour if you suggest they hadn't thought out every possible option fully in this matter.



... you know a situation is so cut and dry when you even find me defending the modern political beast that the Federation has evolved into.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#25 - 2011-10-13 18:44:20 UTC
The communications blackout that the Caldari forces imposed on many of the worlds they occupied would have precluded any srt of vote even had the Senate not voted to block the Placid region from the Presidential elections. The Caldari would have likely blocked any attempt at communication entirely, or alternatively, communicated false results that benefited themselves. Elections, let alone fair elections, were impossible under such circumstances, and the Federation is not to blame for this fact.

Perhaps if the Intaki Liberation Front had put aside its differences and aided the FDU against the invading forces, we would not be having this conversation.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#26 - 2011-10-13 18:48:21 UTC
I will not disagree with the assessment that there are certainly more parties to blame than the Senate, but that does not change the fact that the current President of the Federation was chosen in flawed election.

As I, and others, have pointed out the circumstances that were used to justify the subversion of democracy are gone. The blackout no longer exists. Planetary occupations are no longer happening.

The corrective is simple: If the Supreme Court were to rule the Voting Prohibition Act illegal, it would nullify the election that followed it. A new election would be called and all citizens of the Federation would be allowed to participate.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#27 - 2011-10-13 18:54:27 UTC
Saxon Hawke wrote:
I will not disagree with the assessment that there are certainly more parties to blame than the Senate, but that does not change the fact that the current President of the Federation was chosen in flawed election.

As I, and others, have pointed out the circumstances that were used to justify the subversion of democracy are gone. The blackout no longer exists. Planetary occupations are no longer happening.

The corrective is simple: If the Supreme Court were to rule the Voting Prohibition Act illegal, it would nullify the election that followed it. A new election would be called and all citizens of the Federation would be allowed to participate.


Great, so we do that and hypothetically Roden wins a new 5 year term, which not only has extended his time in office, but breaks the law that no President can run twice. So to recover one issue in history, you want to break another law?

Alternatively realise that in a few years time there will be elections and all things hoping, all members of the Federation will be able to vote. Digging up the past in matters like this is pointless and serves little purpose. Make your voice heard next time, and if you want to make sure that's going to happen then I suggest fight for your right to vote if the STPRO forces attempt to retake your system.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#28 - 2011-10-13 19:33:43 UTC
In a recall election, Roden would be able to run legally because he would be defending his current term, not running for a second one.

Furthermore, anyone who won the election, including Roden should the vote go that way, would not serve a five-year term, but merely the unexpired portion of the current term.

I find it interesting that so many who purport to support the Federation and its principles of liberty and independence fail to see the implications of the Voting Prohibition Act. The outcome of this election is not what is at stake. It is the very fabric from which the Federation is woven that is in danger.

What constitutes the bulwark of Gallente liberty and independence? It is not your frowning battlements, your bristling space stations, the guns of your war ships, or the strength of your gallant and disciplined Navy. These are not your reliance against tyranny. All of them may be turned against our liberties, without making you stronger or weaker for the struggle.

Your defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as the heritage of all men, in all lands, every where. Destroy this spirit, and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors.

Asking the people of Intaki to sell their liberty for the price of your convenience is the first step down a path to despotism. If you can deny liberty to any member of your society for any reason then someone can deny it to all, including you.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#29 - 2011-10-13 19:44:23 UTC
Saxon Hawke wrote:
I will not disagree with the assessment that there are certainly more parties to blame than the Senate, but that does not change the fact that the current President of the Federation was chosen in flawed election.


An election flawed by unfortunate circumstances and unfortunate neccessity. A new President had to be elected. The Federation could not wait for the (at the time) lacklustre and unreliable FDU to liberate these systems - an election had to be held, with or without the occupied worlds. There was really no choice if the Federation wanted to survive in its present state.

Saxon Hawke wrote:
As I, and others, have pointed out the circumstances that were used to justify the subversion of democracy are gone. The blackout no longer exists. Planetary occupations are no longer happening.


Actually, the circumstances that forced the Federation's hand are still in motion. We are still at war, and Harroule and Esesier are both under occupation; both systems, incidentally, containing temperate, settled planets. Federation colonies are still under illegitimate State occupation. Literally every day, the Caldari, still under the sway of a Provist tyranny that cares nothing for the people of Placid other than what profit they can deliver, attempt to extend their reach into our space.

We're still at war, Saxon, and to be fair, the occupation and the events it precipitated were directly responsible for the collapse of Souro Foiritan's administration, which required the emergency elections in the first place. Again, if the FDU had had more assistance in repelling the invasion, we would never be having this conversation in the first place.

Saxon Hawke wrote:
The corrective is simple: If the Supreme Court were to rule the Voting Prohibition Act illegal, it would nullify the election that followed it. A new election would be called and all citizens of the Federation would be allowed to participate.


I would hope you are aware that in almost any legal system, the repeal of a law or governmental act does not neccessarily retroactively negate or illegitimise decisions made while it was in effect, the same way a new law prohibiting something does not neccessarily allow for the retroactive prosecution of those who undertook this activity before it was illegal.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#30 - 2011-10-13 19:58:56 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
I would hope you are aware that in almost any legal system, the repeal of a law or governmental act does not neccessarily retroactively negate or illegitimise decisions made while it was in effect, the same way a new law prohibiting something does not neccessarily allow for the retroactive prosecution of those who undertook this activity before it was illegal.


You are, of course, correct. However, I believe it would still be within the jurisdiction of the Court to rule to results of the election invalid based on the illegal nature of the Act that enabled it. Invalidating the results would require a new election.

I also acknowledge that two systems are currently under occupation, but to my knowledge the planets in question still remain under the protection of Federation ground forces and there has been no communications blackout. As those were the criteria cited before, I don't see why those planetary populations would be disenfranchised now.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#31 - 2011-10-13 20:37:35 UTC
Hm. Not quite my area here, so speaking mostly as an outsider:

Roden pulled 58.7% of the votes, with the closest runner-up hitting 31.2%. I seriously doubt that the inclusion of the war zone worlds - 47 low-sec systems of 388 systems in the Federation - would have out-weighted such a difference, even if all of them had voted for Aguard. And indeed, the main effect the relevant Scope article seems to indicate is that Roden wouldn't have had an "outright majority". ( http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3608&tid=4 )

Now I'm rather uninformed about the Federal law system, but I don't think this would have changed Roden's precidency. Could one of the Federate pilots give a short explanation on what exactly this "outright majority" or the lack thereof means?

As for the current situation, I think it's rather unfortunate that these people did not get a vote in this election. On the other hand, it seems it wouldn't have had a major effect, and going for a re-vote now would cause a lot of expenses and work that's likely better used elsewhere (you do have this war thing going on), and a change in government always delays and hampers ongoing governmental work. As it's just a bit over 3 years until the next election, I understand the desire to not put in these expenses and just wait until it's officially happening anyhow.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#32 - 2011-10-13 21:41:33 UTC
Saxon Hawke wrote:
You are, of course, correct. However, I believe it would still be within the jurisdiction of the Court to rule to results of the election invalid based on the illegal nature of the Act that enabled it. Invalidating the results would require a new election.


It would certainly be within the jurisdiction of the courts to do such a thing. Whether they'd actually do it is another matter entirely.

Saxon Hawke wrote:
I also acknowledge that two systems are currently under occupation, but to my knowledge the planets in question still remain under the protection of Federation ground forces and there has been no communications blackout. As those were the criteria cited before, I don't see why those planetary populations would be disenfranchised now.


Because of the recent inexplicable cluster-wide factional news blackouts imposed by the ISD, we have absolutely no idea of the condition of these planets, and so no evidence can really be gathered to coroborate either side of this particular contention.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#33 - 2011-10-13 21:49:07 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Now I'm rather uninformed about the Federal law system, but I don't think this would have changed Roden's precidency. Could one of the Federate pilots give a short explanation on what exactly this "outright majority" or the lack thereof means?


I'm fairly certain that the presidential election in and of itself, neccessarily being a single-winner election for a single post (and therefore not using any form of proportional representation) would require only a plurality - i.e. more votes than any other single candidate. Not having a simple majority (i.e. over 50% of the vote) probably wouldn't matter as long as no had single candidate had more votes than you. Any candidate obtaining over 50% of the vote will, by simple mathematics, be the winner.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Alain Octirant
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-10-14 04:54:51 UTC
The ridiculous hyperbole employed in the original post is a new low, even for you, Hawke. That you would have the gall to suggest that our esteemed and august President assumed his title in a manner that does not mesh with the laws and ideals of the Federation is not surprising to me at all, considering some of the outrages perpetrated in your illustrious career.

This is a man, ladies and gentlemen, who changes his allegiances like I change my sports-coat. And like my sports-coat collection (Which includes such colours as beige, off-white, bone, ivory and navy. As well as cream) he has as many different shades as he needs. When the Caldari are ascendant, he decries Federal iniquities. But when the chips are down, he comes crying, back to the Federation.

This is a survivalist, ladies and gentlemen, the same as any cockroach or base insect, who will do whatever he needs to do.

Hawke, you and your Placid terrorist group have tried the patience of the people of the cluster long enough. It is a disgrace that you show so little respect to the office of President, and frankly, I'm bored of your whining. Don't think I haven't seen you in Villore, lobbying the Supreme Court. I will do everything I can to block your little scheme and send you back to Poitot where you belong, along with the rest of the refuse with which you spend your time.
Saul Ambrye
Ishukone Prosperity Exchange
#35 - 2011-10-14 05:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Saul Ambrye
Alain Octirant wrote:
The ridiculous hyperbole employed in the original post is a new low, even for you, Hawke. That you would have the gall to suggest that our esteemed and august President assumed his title in a manner that does not mesh with the laws and ideals of the Federation is not surprising to me at all, considering some of the outrages perpetrated in your illustrious career.


Perhaps you could point me to when exactly it became an "ideal" of the Federation to deny the right to choose one's representatives?

Quote:
This is a man, ladies and gentlemen, who changes his allegiances like I change my sports-coat. And like my sports-coat collection (Which includes such colours as beige, off-white, bone, ivory and navy. As well as cream) he has as many different shades as he needs. When the Caldari are ascendant, he decries Federal iniquities. But when the chips are down, he comes crying, back to the Federation.


Someone who's opening remark decried hyperbole might want to avoid engaging in so many of them.

I've not noticed any deviation in the Suresha's grievances with the Federation.

Besides, a fellow politician decrying the idea of looking at the situation that exists and pattering their message to resonate with issues that are most pressing in that moment? That's lunacy...and the second example of hypocrisy you've managed to demonstrate for us.

My dear friend Mr. Octirant, I have so enjoyed running laps around you as you twist yourself into a knotted heap all of my career.

Quote:
This is a survivalist, ladies and gentlemen, the same as any cockroach or base insect, who will do whatever he needs to do.


Ahh, so now we are beneath even being human, well, it is little wonder you had not qualms with cutting us apart from you like dead weight when it might possibly be that you were to be personally inconvenienced. For one who so often speaks of our need for solidarity, I wonder what is your position on the idea of throwing fellow Federal citizens under the bus to save one's own skin?

I await your (undoubtedly patronizing) response.

Quote:
Hawke, you and your Placid terrorist group have tried the patience of the people of the cluster long enough. It is a disgrace that you show so little respect to the office of President, and frankly, I'm bored of your whining. Don't think I haven't seen you in Villore, lobbying the Supreme Court. I will do everything I can to block your little scheme and send you back to Poitot where you belong, along with the rest of the refuse with which you spend your time.


"Terrorist group"

"disgrace"

"scheme"

"refuse"

Well, I suppose I should at least congratulate you on being consistent, 3 paragraphs, 3 times over a hypocrite.

Saul Ambrye Executive Director Ishukone Prosperity Exchange "Cooperation is the greater path than conflict"

Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#36 - 2011-10-14 06:13:11 UTC
Alain Octirant wrote:
This is a man, ladies and gentlemen, who changes his allegiances like I change my sports-coat.


I believe the record is quite clear, my allegiances have always been, and will forever remain, to the people of Intaki. I am not omniscient, but I have always taken the course that I felt did the most good for the people of Intaki while doing the least harm to others.

Alain Octirant wrote:
This is a survivalist, ladies and gentlemen, the same as any cockroach or base insect, who will do whatever he needs to do.


An interesting thing happens to refugees, the learn to survive or they die. The survivors teach their children what they have learned and so it is down the generations. I may be a survivalist, but if I am it is because men like you forced my ancestors to be. As I stand before you, know that I am the product of the Federation's past denial of Liberty. If I am as foul a creature as you say, then perhaps it would be wise of you to ensure such miscarriages of freedom be prevented today, lest there be more like me tomorrow.

Alain Octirant wrote:
Don't think I haven't seen you in Villore, lobbying the Supreme Court.
I had wondered who that FIO wannabe would be reporting back to. He has all the subtlty of a Dominix.

And I think I speak for all the refuse I associate when I say we will NEVER allow ourselves to be exiled again.
Jake Lanks
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2011-10-14 14:15:55 UTC
Alain Octirant wrote:
The ridiculous hyperbole employed in the original post is a new low, even for you, Hawke. That you would have the gall to suggest that our esteemed and august President assumed his title in a manner that does not mesh with the laws and ideals of the Federation is not surprising to me at all, considering some of the outrages perpetrated in your illustrious career.

This is a man, ladies and gentlemen, who changes his allegiances like I change my sports-coat. And like my sports-coat collection (Which includes such colours as beige, off-white, bone, ivory and navy. As well as cream) he has as many different shades as he needs. When the Caldari are ascendant, he decries Federal iniquities. But when the chips are down, he comes crying, back to the Federation.

This is a survivalist, ladies and gentlemen, the same as any cockroach or base insect, who will do whatever he needs to do.

Hawke, you and your Placid terrorist group have tried the patience of the people of the cluster long enough. It is a disgrace that you show so little respect to the office of President, and frankly, I'm bored of your whining. Don't think I haven't seen you in Villore, lobbying the Supreme Court. I will do everything I can to block your little scheme and send you back to Poitot where you belong, along with the rest of the refuse with which you spend your time.



The worst thing of everything you say Alain is that you are part of the Nationalist Party in Democratic Federation!
Also be sure that Hawke will not be alone if you try to block him...

Angels...are never far

Bastian Valoron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2011-10-14 14:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastian Valoron
Saxon Hawke wrote:
You say the Senate needs to listen to everyone while supporting it for silencing the voices of the millions of residents living within the formerly occupied systems.
While being temporarily without the right to vote may be unpleasant, it does not mean that the Senate has stopped caring and working for your benefit. A proof of this is the glorious liberation of Placid after the elections.

If I had been registered in Placid, I wouldn't have hesitated to give away my voting rights to ensure that the freedom in the rest of the Federation can survive. When the whole nation is in danger, drastic measures are needed. In the end, this strategy didn't just save Placid - it ensured that the tradition of democracy, liberty and equality can continue in the cold vastness of space.

Saxon Hawke wrote:
This is the mind of Gallente Progressivism? I truly shudder to think what other great reform programs you'd like to see put on the people of the Federation. What next? Poll taxes? Literacy requirements? Perhaps you could advocate moving all polling stations to Gallente Prime as a way to safeguard the ballots.
We are strictly against taxes, requirements, regulations and other restrictions of individual liberty, unless national security demands otherwise. We are in the process of updating our platform and will present it in more detail later. Thank you for expressing curiosity towards our line of thinking.
Jon Engel
Machete Carbide
#39 - 2011-10-14 15:55:54 UTC
Bastian Valoron wrote:
Saxon Hawke wrote:
You say the Senate needs to listen to everyone while supporting it for silencing the voices of the millions of residents living within the formerly occupied systems.
While being temporarily without the right to vote may be unpleasant, it does not mean that the Senate has stopped caring and working for your benefit. A proof of this is the glorious liberation of Placid after the elections.

If I had been registered in Placid, I wouldn't have hesitated to give away my voting rights to ensure that the freedom in the rest of the Federation can survive. When the whole nation is in danger, drastic measures are needed. In the end, this strategy didn't just save Placid - it ensured that the tradition of democracy, liberty and equality can continue in the cold vastness of space.

Saxon Hawke wrote:
This is the mind of Gallente Progressivism? I truly shudder to think what other great reform programs you'd like to see put on the people of the Federation. What next? Poll taxes? Literacy requirements? Perhaps you could advocate moving all polling stations to Gallente Prime as a way to safeguard the ballots.
We are strictly against taxes, requirements, regulations and other restrictions of individual liberty, unless national security demands otherwise. We are in the process of updating our platform and will present it in more detail later. Thank you for expressing curiosity towards our line of thinking.



This whole dribble is laughable, to use nicer words for once.

This kind of Imperialist propaganda coming out of the pie holes of Gallente Nationalist is probably a good reason the Intaki Assembly told you to lower the eagle and leave. The Federation is not wanted by the Intaki of Placid. Deal with it and stop trying to convince the capsuleers otherwise.
Nakal Ashera
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2011-10-14 20:39:55 UTC
I agree that there should be another election.

Unfortunately... It won't happen. Federate politics has forgotten the event already. The masses in Essence and Verge Vendor dwarf the population of population of Placid by such a massive degree that their concerns are seldom held in the highest regard, and the effects of the war only magnify that.

For the same reason, secession is almost impossible. Between the majority of now perfectly secure Placid worlds that are now comfortable and apathetic, and the fact that the Federal public now sees Intaki as some kind of damsel in distress, and the Federal Government and Navy, and in fact, the whole society, simply being what they are...