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Recall Roden

Author
Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#1 - 2011-10-11 21:15:17 UTC
It remains beyond my comprehension how, now more than a year after the "liberation" of Intaki and its colonial systems, the illegal election of Jacus Roden as President is allowed to remain unchallenged.

Polling prior to the Senate's vote to deny the most basic democratic right, that of suffrage, to the people of the Intaki worlds and those others held under Caldari occupation, showed a close race between Roden and Governor Celes Aguard.

While it is conceivable that in a legitimate election Roden may have had a majority of the vote, it is unlikely that it would have been at the 58.7% majority he eventually registered. In fact, had the people of Intaki been allowed to vote, I am certain the outcome would have been a run-off election. Without Senator Vilard Garioss to split the vote in a run-off, who can say what the final outcome would have been?

As the primary reason for denying the people of Intaki the right to vote no longer exists and adding that it is an affront to the principles of democracy to ask any people to live under an administration they were denied an opportunity to have a say in, the Supreme Court must act now to invalidate the election results and call immediately for new elections with universal suffrage for all citizens of the Federation.
James Syagrius
Chatelain Auxiliary Response
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#2 - 2011-10-12 01:40:32 UTC
I support the Administration of President Jacus Roden.

I am troubled regarding the timing of Mr. Hawke’s “request”, considering the military status within the Luminaire system.

However I am forced to agree that regardless of the subversive nature of a person’s opinions, or the inconvenience of their timing, they should be able to express them with their voice and vote.

Liberty should not be held hostage to convenience.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#3 - 2011-10-12 01:51:40 UTC
Take in mind I voted for Governor Aguard, but...

Until the Supreme Court says otherwise, the election of President Roden was not illegal. It may be abhorrent, counter to the values of democracy, so on and so forth, but it was not illegal. Not as far as the workings of the Federal administrative system is concerned.

But more importantly, what difference would it make? Intaki, Placid and other occupied territories would have voted Governor Aguard, who would have instigated an escalation of the war by using the Federation Navy to liberate the systems, and things would have gone to ****. Instead, when Roden was elected, the CONCORD-mandated Federal Defence Union did it instead, and no escalation ever took place.

Given that Roden's election resulted in the complete liberation of Placid and neighbouring areas, do you think the general population really care about the questionable nature of his election? It's all been rendered moot.
Myxx
The Scope
#4 - 2011-10-12 01:53:27 UTC
The Administration of Jacus Roden is illegal and proves that the Federation has lost its way with allowing anyone to deny any portion of the Federation such a basic right. I would encourage the people of the Federation to show their discontent and do so loudly and in the streets and hallways on every major and minor world inside it. You have the most basic right to protest and peaceably assemble to demand that justice be done in the face of such monstrosities. I encourage you to do so and make your voice be heard on this topic and many others. For too long, elements of the Federal Government have wished to strengthen their control over the most basic forms of personal liberities. The FIO, SDII and other groups are just a few on a growing list that have acted against the most basic tenants of Gallentean society.

The radical right wing must not be allowed to have their way with the Federation once more. It is therefore the duty of every able bodied citizen of the Federation to make their collective voice heard. Jacus Roden and Mentas Blaque should be forcibly removed from office and the SDII dissolved, and its operations made public.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#5 - 2011-10-12 02:00:58 UTC
You know, before this gets blown out of proportion too much.

There's more to the Federation than the old man or lady who gets elected into Ladistier.

A citizen should be more concerned about their local planetary government than the Presidency, for it is the former that has the more direct influence over an individual's lifestyle.
Myxx
The Scope
#6 - 2011-10-12 02:05:21 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
You know, before this gets blown out of proportion too much.

There's more to the Federation than the old man or lady who gets elected into Ladistier.

A citizen should be more concerned about their local planetary government than the Presidency, for it is the former that has the more direct influence over an individual's lifestyle.



There is, and when you are put under a microscope for merely voicing discontent with the Federation... something is wrong.
James Syagrius
Chatelain Auxiliary Response
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#7 - 2011-10-12 02:05:33 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
You know, before this gets blown out of proportion too much.

There's more to the Federation than the old man or lady who gets elected into Ladistier.

A citizen should be more concerned about their local planetary government than the Presidency, for it is the former that has the more direct influence over an individual's lifestyle.


Quite right, Planetary or District government is fundamental to our federal system.
Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#8 - 2011-10-12 04:16:33 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
But more importantly, what difference would it make? Intaki, Placid and other occupied territories would have voted Governor Aguard, who would have instigated an escalation of the war by using the Federation Navy to liberate the systems, and things would have gone to ****. Instead, when Roden was elected, the CONCORD-mandated Federal Defence Union did it instead, and no escalation ever took place.

Given that Roden's election resulted in the complete liberation of Placid and neighbouring areas, do you think the general population really care about the questionable nature of his election? It's all been rendered moot.



Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
There's more to the Federation than the old man or lady who gets elected into Ladistier. A citizen should be more concerned about their local planetary government than the Presidency, for it is the former that has the more direct influence over an individual's lifestyle.


Thank you General for this fascinating lesson in Gallente Federal Civics, or at least for some insights into the brain trust that has been left to defend the core values of the Federation.

Let's see, what can we take away from the General's musings?

If you are omniscient you can supercede the rule of law with the justification that your outcome would have been better than the legal one, thus rendering your violation of the basic principles of democracy moot.

In addition, there really isn't much importantce in voting for the highest executive office in the Federation because when you live in the hinterlands you'd probably do better to mind your own business and let the gentile folk worry about the really complicated matters of state.

It seems to me that what you're saying is that the people of Intaki don't really matter to the Federation as we would have elected the wrong president and that the Federation shouldn't really mean much to us, either.

If I didn't know better, General, I'd say you were a seccessionist.
Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#9 - 2011-10-12 13:01:46 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
I support the Administration of President Jacus Roden.


I support President Jacus Roden the same as you.
He was elected legally. It wasn't his fault that those territories could not vote, but the Senate.

Myxx wrote:
The radical right wing must not be allowed to have their way with the Federation once more. ... Jacus Roden and Mentas Blaque ...


They are not U-Nats.


CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-10-12 13:59:03 UTC
Jacus Roden is just what the Federation needed. An unscrupulous leader without any delusions about what our president should act like. He puts the well being of the Federation ahead of the means to achieve them.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#11 - 2011-10-12 14:09:10 UTC
What's the normal term for the president? I.e. when will there be re-elections anyhow?
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-10-12 15:07:28 UTC
Not until the Senate can manage to get their heads out of their collective rears, I'd say.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Akrasjel Lanate
Lanate Industries
#13 - 2011-10-12 15:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Akrasjel Lanate
Arkady Sadik wrote:
What's the normal term for the president? I.e. when will there be re-elections anyhow?


President is elected for five years, and Roden was inaugurated in January 112.

And also:
Quote:
...The president is elected every 5 years and the same man cannot be re-elected. The intent of this rule is to make the president and his administration focus on running the Federation rather than focus on their own popularity...

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Bastian Valoron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-10-12 15:44:08 UTC
It is always painful when one's favourite candidate doesn't have success among the voters. However, as long as we live in a democracy, there will always be new elections. Among all the buzz and pulse that goes on on the Crystal Boulevard, few people even remember the candidates Aquard, Garioss or Fasio anymore! If one looks for change, perhaps it is better to look forward to the next elections than cling to the past.

When it comes to legitimacy of President Roden's term of service, I must refer to the legislation passed by the Federation Senate on 17.11.111 YC. Nevertheless, in the Federation we enjoy the freedom to express our concerns. Although the past elections seem to be perfectly valid, there is nothing that prevents an individual to take up the issue in court.

When the past elections are analyzed in more detail, it is hard to estimate how the outcome would have changed if Placid had been voting. Fasio's decision to lend his support to Aguard probably discouraged some of the dove-aligned voters, and Garioss was also there offering competition and a tempting alternative. Assuming the distribution of votes in Placid was not totally alien to the distribution elsewhere in the Federation, it is probable that the special legislation had only a minor effect on the final results.

Finally, the question about the role of the Senate regarding the disenfranchisement is somewhat debatable. Many people see that Senate was just an instrument, a middleman having little choice with regard to the outcome. It was not the senators but the brave citizens of Placid who were behind this important sacrifice for the good of the whole Federation. It was due to them that the attempts of the occupying forces to manipulate the elections were cunningly subverted. The rest of the Federal community will always remember the contribution of the Placid-dwellers with reverence. It would be wrong to take this honour away from them and hand it out to the elite.
Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#15 - 2011-10-12 17:25:10 UTC
Bastian Valoron wrote:
Perhaps it is better to look forward ... than cling to the past.


I have grown particularly weary of this line of Gallente rhetoric. And don't think the racist undertones were lost on me either. Yes, we Intaki cling to the past. Looking backward at where you've been is often a useful tool in determining how to move forward.

Bastian Valoron wrote:
When it comes to legitimacy of President Roden's term of service, I must refer to the legislation passed by the Federation Senate on 17.11.111 YC.


Because we all know the Gallente Senate is without fault and that unjust law has never put into action.


Bastian Valoron wrote:
Finally, the question about the role of the Senate regarding the disenfranchisement is somewhat debatable. Many people see that Senate was just an instrument, a middleman having little choice with regard to the outcome. It was not the senators but the brave citizens of Placid who were behind this important sacrifice for the good of the whole Federation. It was due to them that the attempts of the occupying forces to manipulate the elections were cunningly subverted. The rest of the Federal community will always remember the contribution of the Placid-dwellers with reverence. It would be wrong to take this honour away from them and hand it out to the elite.


Please tell me this was meant as some sort of joke. As least most of those who rewrite history have the decency to wait until those who were actually there are in the grave.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-10-13 02:09:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Mr. Hawke, the issues you brought up are common in any governing body and not unique to the Federation. The root of the problem will ultimately always be the human being.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Jovan Geldon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-10-13 03:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jovan Geldon
Saxon Hawke wrote:

Bastian Valoron wrote:
When it comes to legitimacy of President Roden's term of service, I must refer to the legislation passed by the Federation Senate on 17.11.111 YC.


Because we all know the Gallente Senate is without fault and that unjust law has never put into action.


Regardless, it is the law that decides whether or not something is "illegal", not *your* personal moral compass.

And yes, I did vote for Roden as it happens, although every day I still see that Leviathan in orbit over Caldari Prime, I regret it a little more. Although I guess none of the other candidates would have done a damm thing about it either. One can only hope that his machinations vis-à-vis the Caldari issue are more circumspect than my admittedly young mind can grasp.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#18 - 2011-10-13 03:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Seriphyn Inhonores
Excluding the Intaki homeworld, which was never invaded, how did anyone in their right mind expect voting to take place during the occupation of those regions? Any democratic mechanisms were disbanded by the occupying megacorporations. Moreover, as the relevant news reports point out, the communications blackout imposed on the area meant that some areas may not even know who they were voting for to begin with.

Did the citizens of Caldari Prime vote in the last election? No, because they are under foreign military occupation. The same way much of Placid was, and parts of the Verge and Essence. How you expect subjects of a occupying authority to participate in the political operations of the previous government that was forcibly ejected is beyond me.
Saxon Hawke
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#19 - 2011-10-13 13:10:14 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
How you expect subjects of a occupying authority to participate in the political operations of the previous government that was forcibly ejected is beyond me.


It is the right of any citizen of a democracy to have a say in who governs them. If you deny that right, you strip the legitimacy from the system.

Jovan Geldon wrote:
Regardless, it is the law that decides whether or not something is "illegal", not *your* personal moral compass.


Actually, the Gallente Federation is fortunate to have a Supreme Court to review laws such as the Voting Prohibition Act. I am hopeful that the court will do just that in the near future.

Even if you could justify the election as a wartime necessity, the conditions that existed to justify it no longer exist. Yet the people of Intaki as well as the other regions you mention continue to live under a regime that lacks the legitimacy to govern them. For these disenfranchised populations, Rodin is little more than a dictator imposed upon us.

I think what many here fail to realize is that this isn't as simple as saying "Your candidate lost, better luck next time." We are talking about a violation of the charter on which the Federation is based. If all citizens of the Federation are supposed to be equal with none having more or less rights under the law, then they must all have a say in their governance.

If this is truly the best democracy the Federation can offer the people of Intaki, then perhaps it is time for the Intaki Assembly to consider secession once more.
Syyl'ara
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-10-13 13:24:35 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
1) Until the Supreme Court says otherwise, the election of President Roden was not illegal. It may be abhorrent, counter to the values of democracy, so on and so forth, but it was not illegal. Not as far as the workings of the Federal administrative system is concerned.

2) But more importantly, what difference would it make? Intaki, Placid and other occupied territories would have voted Governor Aguard...

3) who would have instigated an escalation of the war by using the Federation Navy to liberate the systems, and things would have gone to ****. Instead, when Roden was elected, the CONCORD-mandated Federal Defence Union did it instead, and no escalation ever took place.

4) Given that Roden's election resulted in the complete liberation of Placid and neighbouring area...

5) do you think the general population really care about the questionable nature of his election? It's all been rendered moot.


1) Well, as long as we have our priorities straight.

So abhorrent travesties of democracy are ok as long as no laws get broken.

You can disenfranchise whole swathes of your electorate when it is convenient, as long as no laws get broken.

I have to pause here to question: If basic inalienable rights are not enumerated in legislation anywhere currently, what is it the Senate does, exactly?

I mean when they aren't finding the next way to come across as nothing but a pack of hypocrites?

2) Well, with your divine insight, I guess we don't need to have any elections next round either, just tell us now who wins if you please.

Unfounded speculation.

3) Self-congratulatory, sunshine-and-roses revisionist speculation based on unfounded speculation.

4) Post-hoc ergo propter hoc.

Just because one event follows another in time does not prove a causal link between them.

5) Well, here's what the representatives of those in the occupied zones had to say at the time:

"Senators from occupied space, led by a coalition of senators from the Placid region, have strongly pressed that elections still be held as normal in the occupied systems, despite the logistical difficulties. According to the senators, their constituents are highly invested in the upcoming election, which will dictate the future face of Federation politics and its stance toward the ongoing war with the Caldari State."

http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3570&tid=5

Your glib attempt to cast doubt on how serious an issue this is for many is not entirely unexpected, if fits perfectly with your ability to predict the future that you can also read minds across the cluster. I'm not sure what exactly has been "rendered moot." Is there a statute of limitations on gross violations of the social contract in the Federation?

Bastian Valoron wrote:
1) It is always painful when one's favourite candidate doesn't have success among the voters.

2) When it comes to legitimacy of President Roden's term of service, I must refer to the legislation passed by the Federation Senate on 17.11.111 YC. Nevertheless, in the Federation we enjoy the freedom to express our concerns. Although the past elections seem to be perfectly valid, there is nothing that prevents an individual to take up the issue in court.

3) When the past elections are analyzed in more detail, it is hard to estimate how the outcome would have changed if Placid had been voting. Fasio's decision to lend his support to Aguard probably discouraged some of the dove-aligned voters, and Garioss was also there offering competition and a tempting alternative. Assuming the distribution of votes in Placid was not totally alien to the distribution elsewhere in the Federation, it is probable that the special legislation had only a minor effect on the final results.

Finally, the question about the role of the Senate regarding the disenfranchisement is somewhat debatable. Many people see that Senate was just an instrument, a middleman having little choice with regard to the outcome. It was not the senators but the brave citizens of Placid who were behind this important sacrifice for the good of the whole Federation. It was due to them that the attempts of the occupying forces to manipulate the elections were cunningly subverted. The rest of the Federal community will always remember the contribution of the Placid-dwellers with reverence. It would be wrong to take this honour away from them and hand it out to the elite.


1) I think it has less to do with "boo-hoo my guy didn't win" and more to do with the whole election being an insult to the principles of democracy that you purport to defend.

2) Never doubt, when a tyrant is rising, they will have a piece of paper that says everything they are doing is absolutely above board. Also, while I can see some arguing that the election is valid, to say it is "perfectly valid" is an insult to those in uniform who died to protect the rights of their fellow citizens that was so cowardly and easily surrendered in the halls of the government they laid their lives down for.

3) You can speculate that it might not have changed, but you know a good way to find out?

Hold a special election now that the threat of widespread manipulation has abated.

I also took the liberty of illustrating how tenuous and utterly fictitious you come across as here when your statement is a nothing but a rambling series of if/maybe/could-haves.

Much like Mr Inhonores, you seem to think your baseless speculating about "might-haves" and "what-ifs" actually stands as a proper subsitute to democratically electing people.

4) Your own news agencies disagree with you.

Why do I know more Federal history and politics than their own defense forces?

After the elections are out of the way, perhaps your Senate could address the deficiencies in Federal civics courses at your educational institutions.

Syyl'ara Infrastructure Security Coordinator Ishukone Prosperity Exchange "Cooperation is the greater path than conflict"

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