EVE Information Portal

because 20 billion isk in hurricans is over 250 people
250 people x 15 dollars a month = CCP making it rain.

20 billion isk in a supercarrier is 1 person
1 person RMTing isk with his bots that go unpunished = 0 $ for CCP




What would you do if you were ccp?





Edit: still waiting for CCP Tallest to comment more. been 60 pages bro

Most of the proposed changes sound reasonable but I think CCP are doing too many small alterations in one hit so they wont be able to figure out exactly which change is doing what.

The underlying philosophy of the game has always been that ships can hit their own class and everything bigger with full force, They hit one class down with most of their damage2 classes down they can tickle a little and everything else they have no chance. That's before tracking altering mods.

The issue of Titans owning BS fleets can be solved with a new class of guns for Super class hulls, The ship damage bonus would need to be altered to keep the DPS similar but slightly higher V other suppers, slightly less than current on regular caps and at or about 1000 DPS against BS.
The DD only working on caps is a good thing and should remain.


Suppers loosing their Drone bays is OK but painful. BUT they should still be able to field a full flight of bombers and fighters. with possibly a few spares in the drone specialist ones.

Fighters, fine increase their sig resolution to 400 to stop them hitting small targets but they also need either a tracking and or optimal range buff to make them still effective against moving BS.

As we all know people will now try to de fang SC/Carriers with stealth bombers. this needs to be made slightly harder to do. Fighters need their orbiting range increased a lot. it should be more than 7.5K so 6 bombers cant take all the fighters from a hundred carriers in one pass. The solutions are either slightly nerf bombers so that a single wave can't kill fighters/bombers. They should do in the region of 60-70% armour damage so a second wave kills them OR increase fighter orbits so that only a portion of the sphere get killed when orbiting a target.

Now as for Dreads, I've already said all ships should be able to hit the class bellow to some extent. If a new class or super gun is introduced this makes it possible to increase the tracking of dread guns. Out of siege they should have the DPS of 1.5 to 2 BS and be able to hit BS ok but not well, in siege they should be unable to hit BS but get their big DPS increase.

And not sure if a fix has been mentioned but the ROF boost to the Moros is going to kill it's cap. This needs addressed.

i still think you woudl be better off just rolling back the cap changes that came in with dom, remove fighter bombers until you can be botherd to introduce an attack carrier.

these new plans do not address the current issues properly. come on ccp, if you cant be bothered to do a proper job dont bother at all

Guess what figthers arent getting the nerf , and carriers arent meant to rat.

Bad example buddy (Bismarck was a battleship not a Carrier - or super carrier for that matter, it was a faction BS ) ... you do realise that he was always in fleet with a HAC (Prinz Eugen) just to be heavily damaged by a Carrier (HMS Ark Royal) later the final blow was made by BS'es ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_battleship_Bismarck



[sarcasm]
You are playing of internet SPACESHIPS and you want to make it realistic? In real life you don’t have spaceships (except of course a decommissioned SHUTTLE - lol) … nothing can travel faster than the speed of light (don’t care about that newspaper headline that the Italians found some particles – proof or STFU), wormholes existence hasn’t been proven yet and the stargates are still under construction …
[/sarcasm]

Hope you don't take it personally ... bored @ work...

E

Do not Nerf Supers CCP, leave them exactly as they are except for the log off and self destruct thingy, for this apply R/L rules, just because your getting attacked in your R/L shiny carrier does not mean you can just disappear, nor does it mean you can blow yourself up or destroy your ship to such an extent that the attackers have nothing to shoot at.

In R/L yes you can disable your ship, scuttle it, but your attackers can still shoot and destroy it as long as they can see it, if you commit to battle then you must accept the fact that you stand a good chance of loosing your ship and that chance must be real.

How to pose a threat to super carriers, currently not possible, not in a meaningful way enough to place the doubt of outcome in the mind of the pilot.

A far simpler way to solve the problem would be to make Dreads a meaningful threat to supers, alter there design in such a way as to make them useful as fleet ships rather than just stationary siege platforms, to do this add a rack of point defense weapons with which to protect themselves from other ‘smaller’ ships and drones/fighters, increase there main gun tracking abilities with the use of rigs or mods.

Add to this increased Cap and Armor and you have in numbers a real threat to Supers…………. Hmmm !


Note to self: are you not talking about tactics, correct fleet composition and the understanding of the capabilities of the ships you fly here rather than changes to ship mechanics.

What does a lone carrier (with fighters in the air) do against a dozen stealth missiles capable of cruising a couple of meters above the waves, with networking capability for synchronized strike, electronic counter-measures and designed to evade modern point-defense systems... Launched from a pair of stealth missile boats?

And that ignores hypersonic missiles...

I think CCP is overnerfing with this patch. Yes, people do rat in their carriers, many people enjoy it, and lots of carriers are destroyed for doing it. Nerfing fighters so carriers can't be used to rat any longer doesn't make any sense...doing so makes carriers single role ships, and also hurts W-Space capital ship escalations.

I agree with the EHP hit, and applaud the logoffski fix. However, I disagree with reducing drone bay size on supers (taking the "super" away from "supercarrier"), and also disagree with disallowing use of anything but fighters and fighter bombers. I understand that supers are meant to be fielded in fleets, but they should also have basic means to defend themselves (ECM drones), and reducing drone bay size is just ridiculous.

CCP has just made an enormously expensive ship class less useful, more dangerous to field, and at the same time reduced their use on the battlefield. If the intent is for more of these ships to be used on the battlefield, then reduce their cost and make it worth fielding them. As it stands now, many alliances are afraid to field supers, and these changes will only further that cowardice. The only things this nerf will do is reduce the number of supercarriers on the field, and, as we are already seeing, cause many supercarrier pilots to sell their ships.

These changes do basically three things:
- kitchen sink roamings that accidentally stumble upon a ratting supercap have a better chance of killing it
- force subcapital deployment alongside supers by making subcaps as immune to supers as possible without using the word immune
- they fiddle with a few fleet-fight performance knobs to see what happens, reminiscent of the equipment tests run in chernobyl in 1986

Now if we look at it, what is actually the problem with supers? They are designed to be cap killers. And they are undeniably good at it. So good in fact, that fielding caps against them currently is ritual suicide. But that is not the fault of supers - that would be like blaming a vagabond for being fast.
So, now that we have ruled out engaging them with regular caps, lets look at subcaps. Titans take a special place here since their doomsday can take out key infrastructure ships like fleet commands in a very reliable way. The other thing at least for turret titans is basic tracking mechanics which guarantees them to at least have some effect if the fc sets them up correctly.

Going on to supercarriers, what about them? Their dps? No. Since the last round of fighterbomber changes a fighterbomber hits an abaddon for 8 to 15 damage per volley. That's not even enough to make your twitchy finger broadcast for reps - it adds up if you look at 250 scs, yes (75k), but you just got hit by a 30 million HP damage volley, there are bound to be scratches (0.25% effective damage!). Their best bet is somewhere in the fighters / sentries / heavies ballpark in which they deal a little above twice as much dps as fleet battleship inside 60km control range. So the subcapital damage output of 250 supercarriers is 550 battleships worth, hardly something the cluster has never seen before.

If you've ever engaged 550 battleships, you know there is simply no tanking that inside their engagement zone. There is not. Accept it. Embrace it. But (assuming even numbers which already means you failed in setting up an unfair fight) you get a steady decline of incoming dps as ships explode. With the EHP of supercaps, their dps decline over time is always shallower than any subcap forces'. The EHP in turn they received because they used to fold in 20 seconds to anything looking at them the wrong way and because they are actually needed in cap fights which are a lot more static than subcap fights once they are on.

All of this combined results in the "supers are the only counter to supers" mantra. So, what is CCP hoping to achieve with these changes? The -20% HP change makes the dps reduction steeper, without having them implode against 20 battleships like they used to. With the drone changes I assume they hope that supercarrier pilots will go for 10/10 or 15/15 splits between bombers and regular fighters. This reduces the damage output of them against both capital and subcapital targets and removing the titan's headshot aimbot. So, less dps output and steeper over time dps reduction.
Will this give subcapital fleets a better chance? Yes. Will the odds-improval be enough to stop the whining or fix eve? No. Will turning these screws even more fix eve? No, it will just break supers again. With their destructible dps without the endless-waves feature that saved the Dominix through the ages they will already be borderline.

The real core problem is not that supers are designed as cap killers. Giving subcaps better odds is all fine, but subcaps are not the designed weightclass in which to engage in. The problem is that no other capital is actually designed to fight capitals - short story short, fix broken dreads.
Siege weapons were fine in the days of RMR and served their purpose while sov was linked to POS. Newsflash, that's history. POS are engaged to annoy your enemy, force fights and flush a few isks into your wallet. They are an opportunity target now, not a tightly regulated core game mechanic.

So, dreads redux:
- remove the 2 target limit that was imposed on dreads because of station hugging moros pilots. supers take care of that problem all over new eden reliably and fast
- remove the remote rep restriction
- soften the tracking penalty in siege considerably
- switch the local rep boost in siege to +120/140/160/180/200% hull, armor and shield hp depending on dread level
- no warping / docking while in siege, but movement does not have to be restricted
- siege timer at 5 minutes is probably still a good idea

What do we achieve with this? We get an actual supportable, fully insured and comparatively easy to get into damage backbone for regular capital fleets that is not just breakfast any more. You will not come out of engaging a 250 supercapital fleet with a 175/75 dread/carrier fleet (again, failure to set up an unfair fight) scott free and you imho never should - but a considerable amount of supers will die, your losses will be easier to replace (isk, build time and build capcity wise) and you actually have - depending on actual fleet compositions and tactics - maybe even a shot at holding the field / forcing the retreat (wiping 250 supers with even numbers should for the time being be unrealistic I think). But this could actually generate nice combined forces fights.

As Titan proliferation increases, the doomsday will probably have to be looked at again. Then again, engaging 250 titans feels like it should hurt by sound alone, yet how much remains the question.

PS: by the way, what is it with all that 'no remote rep' nonsense. Are you all imprisoned in motsu or a 2005 timebubble? active tank stockholm syndrome?

PPS: and fix capital shield reload mechanics by making it like armor
Not even a sandbox needs passive (super)capital shield tanks[/quote]



Excellent summary of the current situation and an amazingly simple solution to the problem.

Thanks for being candid. I was really hoping I was wrong though :(

It appears that the more things change, the more they stay the same. With any luck we will get a change at somepoint that lets us attempt an assault on a super fleet w/o just needing more supers.