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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

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Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2012-08-16 17:42:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Liang Nuren wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

I think we have very different ideas what massive means. Did you not read the link that I posted? Tell me:

A Tormentor with +7.5% tracking and +5% damage per level (and built-in -50% laser cap usage) would be massively more powerful than the same ship with -10% laser cap usage per level and +5% damage per level?


Heh, yeah it really would be. I think you should go read the old threads about the Crusader to see why this is true.


You gotta be kidding me. You're just bullshitting me now.

I think I'm done discussing things with you.

Tip: nobody cares about Crusader balance dicussions from 3 or more years ago when since then blasters, railguns, rockets, artillery and autocannons have been buffed.
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#102 - 2012-08-16 17:50:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
This Tristan look nice ; though I thought the navitas should be a drone boat ; which role will the navitas have ? Drone brawler ?

Is the bonus of the Kestrel for all missiles ? Or only for kinetic ones ?


All missiles. It's a break from the usual Caldari bonuses but in this case we felt it was appropriate.



there is a god
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2012-08-16 18:19:40 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.

/shrug

-Liang


Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do.


I don't think those statistics really mean what you think they do. For starters, about half that list is meaningless because it simply represents what fleet doctrines are being used right now. I think that people are lemmings and game design shouldn't revolve around what any particular mouthpiece is telling people to fly.

Of the ships on that list which are potentially differentiable from fleet doctrines, I'd say that there's 6 Projectile ships, 2 Hybrid ships, and 2 Laser ships. Breaking those down a bit further, we see:
- BS: Nobody flies them outside of fleets. Whatever.
- BC: Hurricane, Tornado, Naga, Oracle (2 Proj, 1 Hybrid, 1 Laser)
- Cruiser: Zealot, Cynabal (1 Laser, 1 Projectile)
- Destroyer: Thrasher, Saber (2 Projectile, also this is meaningless as the destroyer rebalance has not yet arrived)
- Frig: Rifter, Merlin (1 Projectile, 1 Hybrid)

What I'm really seeing is Minmatar dominance via the Hurricane and Saber. And that's your argument that lasers need a massive across the board buff?

-Liang

Ed: I would accept an argument that the Tornado, Naga, and Zealot are fleet doctrines. I don't really keep track close enough to know. It shouldn't materially affect the argument though.



Wouldn't it be likely that lasers aren't used in a lot of fleet doctrines now because they are not up to snuff? and need a boost?
I think they would be used a lot more in fleets if the ships they are fitted on could be used in fleets and be cap stable. I'm thinking the people who come up with the doctrines that effect those statistics use projectiles, missiles mostly cause of the long term cap stability of those ships in fleet, without having to use convoluted cap chains.

Even if all other laser stats are on par with other turrets at the moment, the fact that you will run out of cap just on gun use and propulsion mod use makes them very poor choices for long fights.

I find it kind of funny when they talk about Amarr needing smaller cargo holds because their ammo is so small, when the real Amarr ammo on a lot of my fits is cap boosters. And then my ships are only viable for 5 mins or so. I think this is worse the bigger the ship gets, but I don't think it invalidates the point that lasers as a whole need a change when they need a 50% bonus on a hull to stay somewhat competitive.

If Amarr would become OP with a sweeping change of say a 50% reduction on all lasers. Then I would be willing to see some small nerfs to the stats of the guns, optimal, tracking, that could be then be affected by real second bonuses on ships. So that balance is maintained. But I would say that should be a 2 or 3 step process. First change the bonus and the cap use. If OP then nerf the stats on the guns. They are still going to be the biggest cap using weapons in game and cap is life.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#104 - 2012-08-16 18:23:56 UTC
Kethry Avenger wrote:

Wouldn't it be likely that lasers aren't used in a lot of fleet doctrines now because they are not up to snuff? and need a boost?
I think they would be used a lot more in fleets if the ships they are fitted on could be used in fleets and be cap stable. I'm thinking the people who come up with the doctrines that effect those statistics use projectiles, missiles mostly cause of the long term cap stability of those ships in fleet, without having to use convoluted cap chains.

Even if all other laser stats are on par with other turrets at the moment, the fact that you will run out of cap just on gun use and propulsion mod use makes them very poor choices for long fights.

I find it kind of funny when they talk about Amarr needing smaller cargo holds because their ammo is so small, when the real Amarr ammo on a lot of my fits is cap boosters. And then my ships are only viable for 5 mins or so. I think this is worse the bigger the ship gets, but I don't think it invalidates the point that lasers as a whole need a change when they need a 50% bonus on a hull to stay somewhat competitive.

If Amarr would become OP with a sweeping change of say a 50% reduction on all lasers. Then I would be willing to see some small nerfs to the stats of the guns, optimal, tracking, that could be then be affected by real second bonuses on ships. So that balance is maintained. But I would say that should be a 2 or 3 step process. First change the bonus and the cap use. If OP then nerf the stats on the guns. They are still going to be the biggest cap using weapons in game and cap is life.


I dunno, the CSM minutes says that "Drake fleet should not be a viable doctrine". So, no I'd say it's more a problem with heavy missiles being problematic than with lasers being bad. Either way, I feel like we're shitting up a perfectly viable thread about combat frigates with abstract discussion about whether or not a cap use bonus is a good bonus.

Let's take this elsewhere.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#105 - 2012-08-16 18:27:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


The Navitas also looks a lot like the Exequror....... Blink



http://nooooooooooooooo.com/

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#106 - 2012-08-16 18:31:47 UTC
Kethry Avenger wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.

/shrug

-Liang


Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do.


I don't think those statistics really mean what you think they do. For starters, about half that list is meaningless because it simply represents what fleet doctrines are being used right now. I think that people are lemmings and game design shouldn't revolve around what any particular mouthpiece is telling people to fly.

Of the ships on that list which are potentially differentiable from fleet doctrines, I'd say that there's 6 Projectile ships, 2 Hybrid ships, and 2 Laser ships. Breaking those down a bit further, we see:
- BS: Nobody flies them outside of fleets. Whatever.
- BC: Hurricane, Tornado, Naga, Oracle (2 Proj, 1 Hybrid, 1 Laser)
- Cruiser: Zealot, Cynabal (1 Laser, 1 Projectile)
- Destroyer: Thrasher, Saber (2 Projectile, also this is meaningless as the destroyer rebalance has not yet arrived)
- Frig: Rifter, Merlin (1 Projectile, 1 Hybrid)

What I'm really seeing is Minmatar dominance via the Hurricane and Saber. And that's your argument that lasers need a massive across the board buff?

-Liang

Ed: I would accept an argument that the Tornado, Naga, and Zealot are fleet doctrines. I don't really keep track close enough to know. It shouldn't materially affect the argument though.



Wouldn't it be likely that lasers aren't used in a lot of fleet doctrines now because they are not up to snuff? and need a boost?
I think they would be used a lot more in fleets if the ships they are fitted on could be used in fleets and be cap stable. I'm thinking the people who come up with the doctrines that effect those statistics use projectiles, missiles mostly cause of the long term cap stability of those ships in fleet, without having to use convoluted cap chains.

Even if all other laser stats are on par with other turrets at the moment, the fact that you will run out of cap just on gun use and propulsion mod use makes them very poor choices for long fights.

I find it kind of funny when they talk about Amarr needing smaller cargo holds because their ammo is so small, when the real Amarr ammo on a lot of my fits is cap boosters. And then my ships are only viable for 5 mins or so. I think this is worse the bigger the ship gets, but I don't think it invalidates the point that lasers as a whole need a change when they need a 50% bonus on a hull to stay somewhat competitive.

If Amarr would become OP with a sweeping change of say a 50% reduction on all lasers. Then I would be willing to see some small nerfs to the stats of the guns, optimal, tracking, that could be then be affected by real second bonuses on ships. So that balance is maintained. But I would say that should be a 2 or 3 step process. First change the bonus and the cap use. If OP then nerf the stats on the guns. They are still going to be the biggest cap using weapons in game and cap is life.





Cap Recharger II / Capacitor Booster / Capacitor Power relays / Capacitor Control Circuit etc.if you`re amarr and you dont like it,deal with it
Matthias Duran
Perkone
Caldari State
#107 - 2012-08-16 18:33:19 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Kestrel:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level
Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M (+1), 2 L, 4 launchers
Fittings: 45 PWG (+15), 180 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+109) / 350(+37) / 350 (+84)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 165s (-22.5s)/ 2 (+0.667)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (+24) / 3.27(-0.6) / 1163000 / 3.56s (-0.65)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km (+10) / 620 (+155) / 5 (+2)
Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 38 (-9)
Cargo capacity: 160 (-145)


Let me make sure I understand this change. You're replacing the 10% kinetic damage bonus with a 10% missile velocity bonus and giving it an extra mid. I'd say that chances are the new Kestrel is inferior to the old one despite the extra mid and fittings. What do you say to a 5% ROF bonus over that 5% Damage bonus?



This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
Vakr Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#108 - 2012-08-16 18:44:31 UTC
Matthias Duran wrote:

This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
So a 5% damage bonus to all four damage types is strictly worse than a 10% bonus to a single damage type?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#109 - 2012-08-16 18:50:47 UTC
Vakr Onzo wrote:
Matthias Duran wrote:

This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
So a 5% damage bonus to all four damage types is strictly worse than a 10% bonus to a single damage type?


It already had a 5% damage bonus to all damage types. So yes.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vakr Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#110 - 2012-08-16 18:56:28 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vakr Onzo wrote:
Matthias Duran wrote:

This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
So a 5% damage bonus to all four damage types is strictly worse than a 10% bonus to a single damage type?


It already had a 5% damage bonus to all damage types. So yes.

-Liang
Yes but is losing 5% bonus to kinetic for 10% velocity really that bad?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#111 - 2012-08-16 18:58:29 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

You gotta be kidding me. You're just bullshitting me now.

I think I'm done discussing things with you.

Tip: nobody cares about Crusader balance dicussions from 3 or more years ago when since then blasters, railguns, rockets, artillery and autocannons have been buffed.


The discussions I'm referring to are in reference to a modern Slicer, Retribution, and Crusader. There's nothing that's changed about lasers and damage application in the mean time... so really all this talk about blasters, rails, and rockets is just throwing **** at a wall and hoping something sticks.

You truly do not understand how incredibly powerful tracking bonuses are on frigates. For example, did you know that you shouldn't fit damage mods in most interceptor battles? Why? Because tracking is critical.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#112 - 2012-08-16 18:59:08 UTC
Vakr Onzo wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vakr Onzo wrote:
Matthias Duran wrote:

This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
So a 5% damage bonus to all four damage types is strictly worse than a 10% bonus to a single damage type?


It already had a 5% damage bonus to all damage types. So yes.

-Liang
Yes but is losing 5% bonus to kinetic for 10% velocity really that bad?


There's no reason to use this Kestrel over the old Kestrel and certainly no reason to use it over a Condor.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2012-08-16 19:02:53 UTC
Recoil IV wrote:

Cap Recharger II / Capacitor Booster / Capacitor Power relays / Capacitor Control Circuit etc.if you`re amarr and you dont like it,deal with it


And Cap Batteries...lol.

3 of which are mid slots. Amarr have so many of those, and don't need them for prop mods, tackle, ewar, more tracking or eccm..Roll

1 is a rig. Which I'm sure other races have to use a rig for cap stability... the prerequisite ability of being able to fire at all for Amarr.Ugh

1 is a low slot, which we do have a lot of, but takes away from our tank or gank, which is all Amarr really have.

I already deal with it, but I can also argue for a buff.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#114 - 2012-08-16 19:05:05 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Ok I gonna bring this up here, how many gallente pilots are tired of drone/hybrid combo ships. They are the only race that doesn't get seperate weapon platform ships. Every drone ship gets a hybrid bonus (myrmidon aside) it would be nice if the drone ships were drone ships and the hybrid ships were hybrid ships. Give the drone ships drone hp bonuses, tracking bonuses, optimum range bonuses, damage bonuses, mwd speed bonuses or logistic/ewar bonuses.


I'm very much in favour of this. Enough of the split weapon systems. If it be a drone boat, give it drones and drone bonuses. If it's a hybrid boat, give it hybrid bonuses. But none of this wishy-washy hybrid/drone nonsense. Make up your mind and stick to it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#115 - 2012-08-16 19:05:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Kethry Avenger wrote:
I already deal with it, but I can also argue for a buff.


Argue for a buff in the correct areas. Lasers are incredibly powerful weapons systems and most of the "problems" people are pointing out with cap use bonuses are in fact with the hulls in question instead of the bonus.

Seriously, you guys are complaining that the Armageddon is underpowered. Roll

-Liang

Ed: Argue for a Prophecy buff and I'll be all over it helping you push. Omen too. Legion in cases. Etc, etc, etc. But seriously... asking to lower cap use on all lasers and replace the cap use bonus with damage, tracking, optimal and resists is... batshit insane.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#116 - 2012-08-16 19:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagehi
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vakr Onzo wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Vakr Onzo wrote:
Matthias Duran wrote:

This. Although the kestrel will end up significantly easier to fit compared to now, these numbers mean its going to get a damage nerf - and its not exactly known to be a dps powerhouse now.
So a 5% damage bonus to all four damage types is strictly worse than a 10% bonus to a single damage type?


It already had a 5% damage bonus to all damage types. So yes.

-Liang
Yes but is losing 5% bonus to kinetic for 10% velocity really that bad?


There's no reason to use this Kestrel over the old Kestrel and certainly no reason to use it over a Condor.

-Liang


A buff to tracking helps turrets properly engage other frigates. A buff to explosive velocity is more what missile frigates need to engage other frigates, rather than missile velocity. Missile velocity helps, but if light missiles are already doing around 4km/s base, a 10% per level bonus really isn't impacting performance in a fight much at all. 5% bonus to missile velocity and explosive velocity would be fairly heavenly.
Ogogov
Arpy Corporation
#117 - 2012-08-16 19:09:52 UTC
Quote:

Tristan:
Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level
10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level
Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2)
Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5
Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-1)
Cargo capacity: 140


Thank you for getting rid of the moronic split weapons system on the tristan. I'm interested to see how the drone tracking bonus works in actuality, I have a feeling it'll be less effective but whatever, it looks like the rebalancing initiative is in good hands.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#118 - 2012-08-16 19:16:08 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


The ships are already borderline OP with a laser cap bonus. I think giving them other bonuses might just push them all the way over. But yeah - let's see what the devs say.

/shrug

-Liang


Lasers in general are the least used weapon in PvP nowadays as evidenced by these statistics: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

But I'm sure you'll be telling me that statistics don't mean anything while your opinion and anecdotes do.


Yes, please, use EVEkill as concrete evidence, you know, the site that lists AAA as the number one alliance but fails to take into account the man that killed his alts 100 times in t1 frigates to help keep that number high.

Raw numbers should never be used as facts because they can be interpreted differently by different people.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Azula Kishtar
Lonely among the Stars
#119 - 2012-08-16 19:18:50 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


There's no reason to use this Kestrel over the old Kestrel and certainly no reason to use it over a Condor.

-Liang


The current Kestrel has fitting and cap problems with LMLs, MWD and long point. It has more DPS than the new Kestrel (with kinetic), but i would assume CCP considered the planned damage increase to Light Missiles in general when they made the new Kestrel.

Rocket Kestrel just died with the changes of course.

I would however agree that the Condor has a lot of advantages over the new (or old) Kestrel. It's a real nice little ship, that Condor.....
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2012-08-16 19:25:48 UTC
Kethry Avenger wrote:
ap stability... the prerequisite ability of being able to fire at all for Amarr.Ugh



Haha, who in the world tries to make amarr ships cap stable?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.