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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#1861 - 2011-10-12 23:35:55 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Anile8er wrote:
Why should 20 billion isk worth of Hurricanes be the most versatile forces capable of dealing with support, BS fleets, capital fleets, supercapital fleets and sov warfare


They're not.



Really?

1.4 k/ms per ship

2 medium neuts per ship

drone bay capable of dealing with smaller ship

awesome tracking

awesome ability to dictate range

much better rate of fire than any other BC/BS

20 billion isk worth of hurricanes generates about 240,000 DPS (that far surpasses the DPS a supercarrier or a titan can apply, and only to a capital ship mind you.)
Pyro Tsu
Sarum Industries
#1862 - 2011-10-12 23:40:31 UTC
Yet another change that does not affect players living in HighSec.
Only a minority is living in Nullsec and WHs!
Do care more about the majority please!

http://tsu.sarumindustries.de/

Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#1863 - 2011-10-12 23:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Anile8er
Tell you what. I will support the supercapital nerf if CCP provided all Dreads, Carriers, Supercarriers and Titans the following:

A rapid fire 1000 dps point defense system capable of hitting out to around 20 km.




Edit: this is pretty much a troll. However it would be the reality of a Specific Roles for ships based gameplay. Modern day super aircraft carriers have point defense systems that are well capable of defending them against smaller ships and fast moving aircraft while their primary role is to launch fighters and fighter bombers to provide air superiority and heavily damage enemy ships or positions.
Tore Vest
#1864 - 2011-10-12 23:44:40 UTC
Pyro Tsu wrote:
Yet another change that does not affect players living in HighSec.
Only a minority is living in Nullsec and WHs!
Do care more about the majority please!

CCPgoons are not interested in little things.... like fixing hybrids.
They want to "fix" supers so goons can take over 0.0 with their hurricanes

No troll.

Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#1865 - 2011-10-12 23:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Anile8er
Tore Vest wrote:


They want to "fix" supers so goons can take over 0.0 with their hurricanes



This



Edit: the quote I was actually looking for
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1866 - 2011-10-12 23:48:28 UTC
Pyro Tsu wrote:
Yet another change that does not affect players living in HighSec.
Only a minority is living in Nullsec and WHs!
Do care more about the majority please!


Do what more with highsec, they buffed missionsand added incurions recently, theres plenty of isk printing carebearing there for you to do practically risk free.

btw a good portion of your majority are alts of 0.0 players or bots, if you get bored with highsec go somewhere else and find something interesting to do, that is how the majority of us in 0.0 got to be here in the first place.

-GeeBee
L'ouris
Have Naught Subsidiaries
#1867 - 2011-10-13 00:09:47 UTC  |  Edited by: L'ouris
After reading all friggin 94 pages:


Am I correct in that the fleet fights won't change for Null?

Grath seemed to do a good summary here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=175334#post175334

Grath Telkin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Mioelnir wrote:
Yes, and you then go ahead and claim that because one aspect does not change, no aspect changes. And that is wrong.
So what other aspects change, do you think?


Nothing changed, there is a thread with the title capital balance, but nothing is actually changing.


Supers still deploy fighters because people didn't want to face the possibility of not being able to run Sanctums with carriers, they had the fighter nerf 'undone', so now, you'll have herds of supers launching their 5-10 fighters with rack loads of webs and painters.

On top of this, the ECM burst ill no longer burst their own reps off, so a proficient group of supers will be bursting every few seconds to keep sub caps having to constantly relock the target while their reps, and the reps of triage carriers remain in tact.

Dropping this in the middle of a battleship fleet spells the end of the battleship fleet, no other help needed but dictors to hold everything in the area.

...



I can't seem to identify how the patch changes the current N+1 counter to super fleets with the ECM immunity of the supers and the titan tracking.

I usually only fly frigs though so any clarification would be appreciated.

What about these changes encourages a more diverse fleet fight?
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#1868 - 2011-10-13 00:31:10 UTC
So many SCs being sold lol.

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#1869 - 2011-10-13 00:35:37 UTC
new feedback

1. Arrow Please let dreads keep their drone bay - but have the siege module make it so dreads cannot use drones while in siege mode - similar to carriers triage mode. Idea

2. Arrow Hel is getting hit the worst and will have the lowest EHP of all the mom's please leave their hp alone and maybe look into changing the bonus from logi to something like drone rof.

3. Arrow Drone bay sizes should be able to take a full compliment of fighters and fighter bombers. 25 f / 25 FB. This will leave some versatility to moms to either assign fighters to sub caps to help them out or have a full wing of bombers for capital / sov fights.

3.a. To appease the super cap whiners that have no friends to back them up in a fleet fight.
Arrow MAKE 2 drone bays. One for fighters and fighter bombers, And another one for regular drones. large enough to accomodate, 25 light, 25 medium, 25 heavy, 25 sentry, and 25 ewar.
Now to the whiney super cap pilots --- THIS IS MEETING THE ISSUE HALF WAY, It gives you reasonable defense against subs but its not op where you can constantly throw drones out.

4. Arrow AS an added bonus to help supers carriers and others, MAYBE offer a bonus to smartbomb range or neut range.

5. Arrow Look into dread / titan tracking of turrets,

6. Arrow You should explain more in depth about hybrid changes to quell the fear about the changes it is going to receive, you already broke its poor little legs.

7. Arrow If regular carriers are going to be support ships to the supers, make sure they get some good bonuses to help defend against sub caps,
7a - small hp buff
7b - better tracking for all drones
7c - speed bonus drones ETC

8. Arrow A note to the community - THESE ARE PLANNED CHANGES AND ARE NOT YET IN STONE! Get on the test server and try it out and offer constructive help not whining and rage quitting.

9. Arrow To most of you bitter vets - We were all around before super caps existed, we were all around fighting for sov long before tons and tons of moms were fielded. MAKE UP TACTICS, Send in the subs first to distract their subs then send in the dreads and supers to take out their capitals.


Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Galyrion
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1870 - 2011-10-13 00:46:50 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Anile8er wrote:
Why should 20 billion isk worth of Hurricanes be the most versatile forces capable of dealing with support, BS fleets, capital fleets, supercapital fleets and sov warfare


They're not.



Really?

1.4 k/ms per ship

2 medium neuts per ship

drone bay capable of dealing with smaller ship

awesome tracking

awesome ability to dictate range

much better rate of fire than any other BC/BS

20 billion isk worth of hurricanes generates about 240,000 DPS (that far surpasses the DPS a supercarrier or a titan can apply, and only to a capital ship mind you.)


U keep refering to "isk worth of" as if that is a way to messure balance, and as I stated before its plainly ******** to think that way. Following your logic noobships needs to be nerfed cos what can counter xammount of isk worth of noobships?
Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#1871 - 2011-10-13 00:48:26 UTC
Also they will see many unsubs. I too will watch this company cascade. Terrible it has to happen to EVE. I have played MMOs for about 15 years. This is the classic hair on fire we are losing subs let us make drastic changes to try to get subs. I watched many MMOs do this very same thing. Top corp execs put out mails. " We are refocusing guys stay please " . They all died because of it. CCP your community is growing tired. Constant war creates burnout, burnout creates unsubs. No war creates unsubs. Making everyone buy extra accounts to play the end game is going to hurt you more and more. Unsub = 3+ unsubs or so average. Good luck. I will be observing. Being this is write a Novel month you are giving me great material.

Silence iKillYouu wrote:
So many SCs being sold lol.

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"

Mr Management
Anger Management
#1872 - 2011-10-13 01:07:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Management
Quote:
Because Cap/Supercap fleet defense vs sub caps is considered to be part of a carriers role


And where was this decided ...... apart from in your imagination.

In CCP own description, for example the Thanatos it decribes itself as a cheap version of a Nyx. The Nidhogger as a pared-down version of the Hel.Therefore it is a invalid argument to presume that the Nyx / Hel etc shouldn not be able to carry out the their roles and much more.

It is a totally a one sided biast argument to expect a Supercarrier to sit in space until downtime / destroyed / rescued without the ability to defend itself from a single Interdictor.

Either give Dreads / Supers the ability to field a small amount of drones or give them a point defence system. Giving them nothing is both stupid and short sighted.,
MrEcloth
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1873 - 2011-10-13 01:18:30 UTC
zero2espect wrote:
So i think that this is page 86 of a forum thread. I know i am wasting my time because a. it's page 86 of a forum thread and b. i've been playing eve since beta and CCP have never, once, listed to any advice or comment from its fan base (ok, maybe once when zealots only had 4 guns). But at least leaving a comment will make me feel better.

It’s obvious to me that the number of players are dropping. the fury of recent blogs are designed to re-energise people into staying. Unfortunately, the changes that are listed as CCPs solutions are just ill thought through, knee jerk reactions by people so far removed from the playing of the game it makes me furious.

My preface is that the very people who have been paying subs for the last 5 years, the people who are growing tired of the game because it is broken, are being placed even more offside by these stupid changes. People who have invested millions of SP and billions of isk into capitals are being killed through stupid misconceptions about how they are used.

For me, the 15min logoffski timer would fix 40% of the issue anyway. Just by itself.

Stop capitals in missions. Just stop them.

Another point is that there needs to be a mechanic separating 0.0 and low-sec. in 0.0 let the big boys duke it out for the billions of moon goo and the like – jump the titans, supers and dreads around all you want. Have different rules for them – they’re fighting for sov, let them bring out the bling – max bonuses. In low sec there needs to be protection for the 3643 (or whatever) corps of 50 people or less who want to pvp without the threat of their 5 baddons, 2 megas and scorp being dropped on by 15 SCs just because it’s fun on a Friday night. Limit the amount of ships that can jump through a cyno into low sec. Prevent fleets with more than 5 caps cynoing into a system. Implement a cyno cool-down onto fleets. Halve the bonuses due to security scanning protocols in low sec. Do something. You dont need to screw supers to fix the prob.

Dreads. Halving the siege time. Perfect. Removal of drones. Stupid. It’s ~1.8b of ships before mods and now has zero defence, in or out of siege. Put the drones back and don’t try to fix lag through cheating us.

Supers. Where do I start. Forget your stupid idea with the drones. Listen, just give the super enough drone bay for 10 bombers and 5-10 fighters and halve the amount of drones able to be deployed at once. Balance this with an additional % of damage per level. Make the pilot choose between putting in bombers, fighters (cap vs bs shooting) and/or any mix of standard drones they wish – a super with 10 sentries/heavies/jamming drones isn’t going to win the next fight in delve but makes a difference to a guy bumped off a pos tackled by a hic and being bumped by 2 machs. Remove the bonuses that allow SC only fleets to remote rep each – force commanders to mix up fleets for reps. Change the ecm burst so that it uses stront so that there is a finite amount of bursting that can be accomplished. The EHP drop is there purely for SC haters – but again it’s stupid. If people are flying supercaps they’ve earned the right to have some ehp buffer. The logoffski rules provide a means that committed smaller fleets have a chance at a kill if they deserve it. I’d be happy to see that the hanger bay and corp hangers on supers be taken away so that they are pure combat ships and must rely on other jump capable ships for logistical support, amp up the fuel bay if you do this.

Titans. Remove the ability to bridge fleets or make it prohibitively expensive/limited – e.g. costs much much more or limits the number of ships similar to a wormhole (more smaller ships, few bigger ships). Fleet fight suppression is more based on the fear of massive-hostile-fleets bridging in rather than OMG 35 titans have jumped in. make the distinction between titan and super not guns but the DD and (rebalanced) jump portal. I can tell you for free that having an erebus gate camping in low sec instapowning anything with guns does not make for a fun eve (and unable to do anything because within range there are 12 supers waiting to jump in and take down anybody dumb enough to counter).

When will CCP learn that nothing good comes from BIG changes to anything. In a complex environment like EVE is, you can never understand what will happen when you make even little changes, and big changes are completely random in how they play out. Let’s be honest, CCPs record of deploying quality changes and balancing and game features is not stellar – this smells like more of the same. This whole situation came about because of a BIG change to motherships to become supers. This is like a roundabout now.

For the love of god, instead of making all these changes do 1 or 2 like I suggest, see what happens. if it’s not enough in a month do another one, then another one. Half of why we hate you CCP is that you hype up all these big changes and they never deliver what was promised. Promise less, do more small things and keep your current players happy. You may be trying to grow the game but at this rate you wont grow faster than people will leave if you keep doing crazy wholesale changes that effect people with BILLIONS invested into your universe.

I don’t have a super but I’m not on the bandwagon of NERF THE SUPERS! just because I don’t have one. I want to aspire to one day have one on this toon and the way things are going there is nothing beneficial in “wanting more” out of this game. I might as well stop producing items, buying plexes and adding value to the game and just fly ceptors and cruisers because at least when you **** them up I won’t be throwing billions down the toilet.

You’d get just as much love out of non-capital pilots if you just fixed low sec and militia and bring in some new sub-capital ships into the game.


This Is the kind of thinking that'll get stuff done right
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1874 - 2011-10-13 01:23:02 UTC
Mr Management wrote:

In CCP own description, for example the Thanatos it decribes itself as a cheap version of a Nyx. The Nidhogger as a pared-down version of the Hel.Therefore it is a invalid argument to presume that the Nyx / Hel etc shouldn not be able to carry out the their roles and much more.



Easy there pilgrim, you're coming dangerously close to pointing out facts.


Here let me help you:


Quote:
Sensing the need for a more moderately-priced version of the Nyx, Federation Navy authorities commissioned the design of the Thanatos



Thats the direct quote.


If the Thanatos can launch regular drones, the Nyx should be able to, since its built off that design.


Simple solution to me is to take regular drones from the carriers as well, wouldn't bother me a bit, and it would mean that ALL capital ships need support, not just some 3 of the 4.

Carriers shouldn't be held up as some special case because people like to run Sanctums in them, if you really, REALLY want to make cap fleets require a support fleet, as the argument is currently being made, then take away regular drones from carriers too.

Otherwise its just some arbitrary nerf CCP is imposing hoping Mittani doesn't tell all his little Goons to go play some other game.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Death2all Supercaps
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1875 - 2011-10-13 01:27:02 UTC
Final nerf will be

DEATH 2 ALL SUPERCAPS!
Mongo Edwards
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1876 - 2011-10-13 01:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mongo Edwards
My .02 isk:

I personally feel that CCP messed up big when they took SC's and turned them into DPS platforms. They should have been a natural progression for a carrier/logi pilot i.e. a super logistics boat (I'm thinking in the vicinity of being able to fit 6-8 bonused capital remote reps). Also, the difference between a carrier and super carrier skill wise does not justify the abilities they have (carrier 3 to sit in one - really?).

While I like most of the proposed changes even I (who hate SC's with a passion) feel a token - seperate - drone bay of about 250-500 m3 is reasonable. I would also like to propose that if you insist on keeping SC's as DPS platforms then you make them siege to use their fighter bombers (and with this they lose the ability to be move, use normal drones, be RR'd, or to RR others). They shouldn't be allowed to siege in low sec.

Titans: I feel they need there tracking nerfed - they shouldn't be popping BS with their guns when a dread has trouble tracking a moon.

Dreads: I don't think this boost goes far enough. They need a better role, killing structures is fine and all but when they siege they are extremely suseptable to being neuted out and killed since they can't active tank with no cap. Really if a fight is expected it is better just to bring BS and carriers since the BS are useful against more ships than the sieged, tracking nerfed, dread. The Phoenix needs some love because not only is it a shield tanker in an armor tanking world but it uses Citadel launchers which are just plain bad.

Disclaimer: I live in low sec and have never been involved in a sov fight. However, SC's are becoming more of a problem for low sec with the recent upheaval in null.
Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#1877 - 2011-10-13 01:40:06 UTC
You want to solve super carrier problems in EVE ? You want to solve your unsub problem? Make super carriers only cost 1/2 and 1/2 time to build or something like that. You have any idea what that would do ? When you have lemons you make lemonade. You do not ignore your lemons , cut them in half, try to suppress them or throw lemons out the window. More supers more risk. More supers more alt toons more holding toons. More war. MORE LOSSS. Cheaper supers mean easier for smaller groups to get them. Levels the playing field. Just deposit x isk into super pilots pocket for adjustment. It will all get blown up anyway.

You can never stop weapon proliferation We are not playing Yatzy.

I am not sure if you are listening but you have already lost the war against supers. Make them abundant and you are a winner.


Political Science Class Dismissed.

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"

Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#1878 - 2011-10-13 01:44:43 UTC
You my friend deserve isk donations. Super logistics boat is another fantastic idea.


Mongo Edwards wrote:
My .02 isk:

I personally feel that CCP messed up big when they took SC's and turned them into DPS platforms. They should have been a natural progression for a carrier/logi pilot i.e. a super logistics boat (I'm thinking in the vicinity of being able to fit 6-8 bonused capital remote reps). Also, the difference between a carrier and super carrier skill wise does not justify the abilities they have (carrier 3 to sit in one - really?).

While I like most of the proposed changes even I (who hate SC's with a passion) feel a token - seperate - drone bay of about 250-500 m3 is reasonable. I would also like to propose that if you insist on keeping SC's as DPS platforms then you make them siege to use their fighter bombers (and with this they lose the ability to be move, use normal drones, be RR'd, or to RR others). They shouldn't be allowed to siege in low sec.

Titans: I feel they need there tracking nerfed - they shouldn't be popping BS with their guns when a dread has trouble tracking a moon.

Dreads: I don't think this boost goes far enough. They need a better role, killing structures is fine and all but when they siege they are extremely suseptable to being neuted out and killed since they can't active tank with no cap. Really if a fight is expected it is better just to bring BS and carriers since the BS are useful against more ships than the sieged, tracking nerfed, dread. The Phoenix needs some love because not only is it a shield tanker in an armor tanking world but it uses Citadel launchers which are just plain bad.

Disclaimer: I live in low sec and have never been involved in a sov fight. However, SC's are becoming more of a problem for low sec with the recent upheaval in null.

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"

Havak Kouvo
Doomheim
#1879 - 2011-10-13 01:58:26 UTC
This is an oppurtunity to really balance capitals.

The fighter sig radius doesn't need to be the size of a battleship.

Minmatar carriers and supercaps need a balance in terms of damage and/or EHP. If they are going to have significantly less EHP compared to other races, they should be dealing a heal of a lot of DPS.

Shield bonuses need to be applied just like armor.

All supercarriers should be able to AT LEAST hold 20 fighters + 20 fb, especially with the nerf. That could be part of the balance of Minmatar supercarriers, large drone bays than other supercarriers.

Morar Santee
#1880 - 2011-10-13 01:59:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Morar Santee
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
new feedback

1. Arrow Please let dreads keep their drone bay - but have the siege module make it so dreads cannot use drones while in siege mode - similar to carriers triage mode. Idea

2. Arrow Hel is getting hit the worst and will have the lowest EHP of all the mom's please leave their hp alone and maybe look into changing the bonus from logi to something like drone rof.

3. Arrow Drone bay sizes should be able to take a full compliment of fighters and fighter bombers. 25 f / 25 FB. This will leave some versatility to moms to either assign fighters to sub caps to help them out or have a full wing of bombers for capital / sov fights.

3.a. To appease the super cap whiners that have no friends to back them up in a fleet fight.
Arrow MAKE 2 drone bays. One for fighters and fighter bombers, And another one for regular drones. large enough to accomodate, 25 light, 25 medium, 25 heavy, 25 sentry, and 25 ewar.
Now to the whiney super cap pilots --- THIS IS MEETING THE ISSUE HALF WAY, It gives you reasonable defense against subs but its not op where you can constantly throw drones out.

4. ArrowAS an added bonus to help supers carriers and others, MAYBE offer a bonus to smartbomb range or neut range.

5. Arrow Look into dread / titan tracking of turrets,

6. Arrow You should explain more in depth about hybrid changes to quell the fear about the changes it is going to receive, you already broke its poor little legs.

7. Arrow If regular carriers are going to be support ships to the supers, make sure they get some good bonuses to help defend against sub caps,
7a - small hp buff
7b - better tracking for all drones
7c - speed bonus drones ETC

8. Arrow A note to the community - THESE ARE PLANNED CHANGES AND ARE NOT YET IN STONE! Get on the test server and try it out and offer constructive help not whining and rage quitting.

9. Arrow To most of you bitter vets - We were all around before super caps existed, we were all around fighting for sov long before tons and tons of moms were fielded. MAKE UP TACTICS, Send in the subs first to distract their subs then send in the dreads and supers to take out their capitals.




Best set of suggestions I've seen in this thread. Would be actual balancing rather than an unsophisticated nerf.