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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1681 - 2011-10-12 09:36:43 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
So why is every other offensive capital ship being forced into the "Fleet Ship" profile except the carrier?
Because they don't need to in order to fit their role.
Quote:
After all if you're changing the role of offensive capitals, change them all, don't leave one in its broken state.
You're assuming here that carriers are broken… You are also assuming that the roles are being changed — they're not. They're being refined, clarified, and more strictly enforced.
Le Cardinal wrote:
A 20B endgame ship
I have bad news for you: cost is irrelevant, and there is no endgame. By all means, ask them to reduce the build price and/or stop equipping them as expensively if they're no longer worth it, but price is not an argument for performance.
Quote:
No matter how you twist and turn it, you do in fact sometimes end up in situations where you are alone and without support, either from logging at a safespot or pos or whatever. Its inevitable.
…and in those scenarios, you are rightfully very very exposed and you should try your hardest to avoid them. This makes them no different from all other ships. So why is that a problem?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1682 - 2011-10-12 09:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mioelnir wrote:
Close to all options small groups of capitals have.
…unless they bring the right support, which is, if anything, a good change.
Quote:
All the while, in large packs, very very little will change.
So, really, if anything, more significant changes are actually needed. All you're doing here is demonstrating that what I said was correct.
Quote:
Carrier miraculously stay the same. And while their remote rep can be jammed, it is also a lot easier to field 250 of them
How does that happen?
Monster Dude wrote:
1) too hard to kill? really? I wouldn't say so as I seen many of those pops very quick being attacked sub-caps.
And what were the scenarios for these kills pray tell?
Brambridge
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1683 - 2011-10-12 10:06:27 UTC

In conclusion, this is my 2 gerbles! Great changes but i think its a bit to much too soon.

Supercarriers (You need to change the name again... After this nerf there is nothing Super about there carrier function)

Drone bay can only hold fighters and fighter bombers. - But abit more that 20-25 ... this is the Primary offencive weapon!
Reduce Shield, Armor and Hull hitpoints on all Supercarriers by 20%. - I dont think this is nessesary (Ref: Logoff time fix is good enough)

Reduce drone capacity.
Aeon, Revenant and Wyvern: 125000 (25 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers) Needs to be both ..50 would be cool
Hel and Nyx: 150000 (30 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers) Needs to be both ..50 would be cool
Remote ECM Burst: Does not affect ships that are immune to electronic warfare (Supercarriers, Titans, Triaged Carriers and Sieged Dreads) Big smile

Fighters

Increase signature resolution to 400 (This should be Subject to the Ship Class i.e. Supercarriers)

Dreadnoughts

Remove drone bay from all dreadnoughts. ... Sounds good

Titans.... Great changes


Logoff timer This will do alot of good ...both in the short term and long!

Great changes CCP!
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1684 - 2011-10-12 10:22:50 UTC
Brambridge wrote:

Aeon, Revenant and Wyvern: 125000 (25 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers) Needs to be both ..50 would be cool
Hel and Nyx: 150000 (30 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers) Needs to be both ..50 would be cool



That would be like a battleship pilot asking to have turrets that can turn into blasters or railguns without having to refit. Forcing the player to choose is a good thing.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#1685 - 2011-10-12 10:25:57 UTC
My favorite part of this thread (and damn, there are so many good parts) is the posts from people saying that supercaps are the 'end game' and should be overpowered.

Sorry, there's no 'end game' in a sandbox game.

My 'end game' is currently 'build 1T worth of supercaps' and when I hit that mark, I'll probably change it to 2T or 5T. If you've bought into the 'supercaps are like raid gear' mindset you've been sold a bunch of snake oil by your alliance leadership.

My advice is to firesale your ship for whatever you can get for it (Here is a handy guide: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArVlisPcgSHddGFZRGtwZ3YyT3dSUDB2YmJvQ053a2c&hl=en_US) and then join an alliance that camps Jita 4-4 until your epeen grows back.
Le Cardinal
ECP Rogues
#1686 - 2011-10-12 10:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Le Cardinal
@ Cynonet Two: You focus too much on the dronebay. A lot of people pull the role-card, and if that is to be a principle counting for Supercaps then it ought to count for other ships as well.

And as for ewar immunity and advantages like that? Christ, a Supercarrier cost 20B. Ofcourse it should have advantages compared to its rivals.

Its the principle behind it that is flawed. Its ok that SuperCarriers get nerfed cause "Now they get their designated role", while other ships dont need to get nerfed cause they are not immune to Ewar and have to jump through gates? If you dont like jumping through gates bring support. You know, black ops or a titan. And if you think its unfair that barges cant mine solo i nullsec then bring support.

And no, cost isnt irrelevant. Or at least it shouldnt be. And every sane SC will try to avoid situations where they are alone. And the fact remains that solo SC's are as killable now as they will be postpatch, except postpatch SC's wont have any defencemechanisms that work on anything less than a capitalship.


Ninjaedit.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1687 - 2011-10-12 10:46:15 UTC
Shadowsword wrote:
Brambridge wrote:

Aeon, Revenant and Wyvern: 125000 (25 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers) Needs to be both ..50 would be cool
Hel and Nyx: 150000 (30 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers) Needs to be both ..50 would be cool



That would be like a battleship pilot asking to have turrets that can turn into blasters or railguns without having to refit. Forcing the player to choose is a good thing.


No no no you see if you spend a lot of money on a ship, you shouldn't have to do things like fitting the right tools for the job, or anything else which requires a functioning brain.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Monster Dude
Raging Angels
#1688 - 2011-10-12 10:51:50 UTC
Victoria Cheeks wrote:
Ath'daru wrote:
People are disliking these changes, not because it will impact them in PvP, but because it will screw up their ISK farming.

I can't fly capitals yet, let alone a super carrier, but I'd be pissed too if I used to make several billion ISK a day soloing ****, and someone took that away from me :)


If you can afford supers, do you really think they had an isk problem to start with?


If you got your SC by claping hands and say - "give me SC" then of course not.
If you got your SC by buying it on ISK made by boting - then of course not
If you build your SC by doing everything for it - hauling, building parts, making isks on your own etc... all by yourself then YES you will have a problem.
And this is why I'm saying that coming nerf will just favor very rich communities and make poor once weaker.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1689 - 2011-10-12 10:52:29 UTC
Le Cardinal wrote:
And as for ewar immunity and advantages like that? Christ, a Supercarrier cost 20B. Ofcourse it should have advantages compared to its rivals.
Again, no. It does not follow.

It's the other way around: an SC has advantages, so of course it should cost 10B. If its cost is out of proportion to the advantage, don't buy it, or ask them to reduce the baseline cost so it can find its true equilibrium.
Quote:
And no, cost isnt irrelevant. Or at least it shouldnt be.
Yes it is, and yes it should, because as history has shown, price is no object if it buys an advantage. All of EVE is built around that very concept, and proves is every day. People will pay insane sums for marginal improvements, but here we have a case where they get a far more than marginal improvement for a rather small increase in relative cost.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#1690 - 2011-10-12 10:58:04 UTC
Monster Dude wrote:

If you got your SC by claping hands and say - "give me SC" then of course not.
If you got your SC by buying it on ISK made by boting - then of course not
If you build your SC by doing everything for it - hauling, building parts, making isks on your own etc... all by yourself then YES you will have a problem.
And this is why I'm saying that coming nerf will just favor very rich communities and make poor once weaker.


When you can make a few billion a week running 0.0 plexes, reaction farms, or doing mysterious things in wormholes, making something more expensive just adds a few extra days or weeks to the grinding period.
loser mclame fatty
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1691 - 2011-10-12 11:06:27 UTC
almost everyone in this thread is the kid who takes his ball and does home when he gets dunked on i hope you're all proud of yourselves
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1692 - 2011-10-12 12:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoking Blunts
chnage them back to motherships, remove fighter bombers. make them a tier 2 carrier liek they used to be

moms and titans have the old hp counts. titan dd's need to be nerf'd a bit more.

introduce attack carrier fighter bombers only, hp same as the new supercarrier plan.

allow all but titans to dock

motherships and attack carrier build costs 5 and 10bil respectivly..

/me goes back to smoking blunts

these ******* forums keep eating posts. ccp fix them ffs

edit, dont even have to do a new model for attack carriers, just paint moms black and add that lovely camo crap to the attack carrier

OMG when can i get a pic here
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#1693 - 2011-10-12 12:12:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Phunnestyle
ROFL@this patch
Endeavour Starfleet
#1694 - 2011-10-12 12:17:45 UTC
That is far too harsh. CCP has shown FAR more interest in what we have had to say in this topic than features of the past like captains quarters.

So can we keep to actually discussing ways to make this change in best way to keep balance to the game instead of throwing crap everywhere?
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#1695 - 2011-10-12 12:20:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Phunnestyle
Best thing CCP can do to save them selves and save some dignity & respect for themselves is to rework the winter patch. As it currently is its an insulting bunch of biased fail.

Need to rework the rework and come back again when you have something in all aspects positive and going forward for Super capitals and subcapitals alike. Some of the changes in the patch are so blindly being made that yet again people wonder if CCP actually takes time out of developing to actually play eve an know what the hell goes on in EVE, from the look of this patch I would be right in saying that.

As has been said before, instead of refining down supers and titans CCP gets an axe and hacks away at them blindly leaving them as a mass hunk of scrap. Almost as though ccp are cracking a Joke to P1ss people off. The way the patch currently stands at,ccp are dooming the game we all love to its end. They will both lose themselves an absolute shed load of money from this fail patch & lose a hell of alot of players (mostly vets) who take this as the last straw. If it goes ahead expect significant drop in players attending EVE that much is obvious.
Sarahs Sister
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1696 - 2011-10-12 12:21:51 UTC
Shadowsword wrote:
Brambridge wrote:

Aeon, Revenant and Wyvern: 125000 (25 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers) Needs to be both ..50 would be cool
Hel and Nyx: 150000 (30 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers) Needs to be both ..50 would be cool



That would be like a battleship pilot asking to have turrets that can turn into blasters or railguns without having to refit. Forcing the player to choose is a good thing.


Okay I agree with you if you allow SC to dock so that they can refit for the situation, becasue I am guessing you have no idea the hassle in swapping firghters to FBs. So yes they should be able to carry 20-25 of both FB and Fighters, I think in two differnet bays so that people can bring LOADS of fighters or FB and can only bring one set plus a few spare for ones that die.

Sarah
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1697 - 2011-10-12 12:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Phunnestyle wrote:
Best thing CCP can do to save them selves and save some dignity & respect for themselves is to rework the winter patch. As it currently is its an insulting bunch of biased fail.

Need to rework the rework and come back again when you have something in all aspects positive and going forward for Super capitals and subcapitals alike. Some of the changes in the patch are so blindly being made that yet again people wonder if CCP actually takes time out of developing to actually play eve an know what the hell goes on in EVE, from the look of this patch I would be right in saying that.

As has been said before, instead of refining supers and titans CCP gets an axe and hacks away at them blindly leaving them as a mass hunk of scrap. Almost as though ccp are cracking a Joke to P1ss people off. The way the patch currently stands at,ccp are dooming the game we all love to its end. They will both lose themselves an absolute shed load of money from this fail patch & lose a hell of alot of players (mostly vets) who take this as the last straw. If it goes ahead expect significant drop in players attending EVE that much is obvious.


Look at this bitter babby crying over his soon-to-be-nerfed Inappropriate language removed. Spitfire.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#1698 - 2011-10-12 12:24:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Phunnestyle
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Phunnestyle wrote:
Best thing CCP can do to save them selves and save some dignity & respect for themselves is to rework the winter patch. As it currently is its an insulting bunch of biased fail.

Need to rework the rework and come back again when you have something in all aspects positive and going forward for Super capitals and subcapitals alike. Some of the changes in the patch are so blindly being made that yet again people wonder if CCP actually takes time out of developing to actually play eve an know what the hell goes on in EVE, from the look of this patch I would be right in saying that.

As has been said before, instead of refining down supers and titans CCP gets an axe and hacks away at them blindly leaving them as a mass hunk of scrap. Almost as though ccp are cracking a Joke to P1ss people off. The way the patch currently stands at,ccp are dooming the game we all love to its end. They will both lose themselves an absolute shed load of money from this fail patch & lose a hell of alot of players (mostly vets) who take this as the last straw. If it goes ahead expect significant drop in players attending EVE that much is obvious.


Look at this bitter babby crying over his soon-to-be-nerfed spacedick.


LOL I dont even have a super or titan,I am looking at this from both angles, appreciating what this nerf should be and what it is, that is 2 completely different stories,about time you got off your perch an did so aswell instead of being a child an trying to fail troll.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1699 - 2011-10-12 12:33:37 UTC
Phunnestyle wrote:
I am looking at this from both angles, appreciating what this nerf should be and what it is, that is 2 completely different stories
So you agree, then, that the suggestions are not enough and that more is needed?
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#1700 - 2011-10-12 12:36:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Phunnestyle wrote:
I am looking at this from both angles, appreciating what this nerf should be and what it is, that is 2 completely different stories
So you agree, then, that the suggestions are not enough and that more is needed?


LOL fail troll an to be frank fail comment.