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They have pretty overwhelming reps, so they CAN defend, as much as any dread can, against supers and titans.


They can also defend/defeat sub caps in large enough numbers in the same way.


And yea, why CAN'T dreads, supers, and titans keep a small drone bay, 50m3 or so, I cannot fathom the whole "NO DRONES NOT NOW NOT EVER". Every Gallente ship, from the noob ship up uses drones, but for some reason the 3 biggest baddest had them left out?

Thats the only flaw in the nerfs, is omitting a small drone bay from each ship type, and keeping the carrier inline with the rest of the 'fleet' ships.

! changes need too, against supcapital blob. Increase their build time to 2x or 3x times longer.

As Miolnir and many others have pointed out theres plenty of other ways to change how the Supers can be changed, best would be a total remake of them to something different than combatships, but that will take time and some rebalancing before is in dire need.
Dread buff and logoutchanges are spot on, though I'd keep the dronebay on dreads as well. No ship should be completely useless vs all smaller ships.

All the fuzz about the supercarriers drones are quite ********. It's not an issue in most fights as can be demonstrated in this video which shows how helpless supercarriers are against a welpfleet even with support:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcA5g59Zsg&list=FLoWHRYGINTIWXgyJNU77P7A&index=1[/url]

Though since drones can be a issue in the smallest of fights in lowsec and so on Id still change them some.

Fighters
Increase their sig resolution to at least 200 to make them less useful against cruisers and destroyers etc, possibly more, as well as increase orbit of the closest orbiting ones. Might want to bring this up to 300 or so.

SuperCarriers
Their biggest problem is their insane damage dealt to capitals using fighterbombers, this makes carriers and dreads completely useless when faceing supercarriers. Their second problem is the ease of which they project power. Thirdly their ability to create remote rr chains and thus operate without carriers and forth their damageoutput vs subcaps, mostly in smallscale fighting. Changes:

Give supercarriers a rolebonus with 100% damage to fighter and fighterbombers, reduce their skillbonus to +1 drone pr level as with carriers and theyll work just as the Revenant does. At the same time reduce the damage of fighterbombers to 50% of what it is today. This reduces lag created by drones. It reduce the gankeffect that supercarriers today have over other capitals and prevents them being used. It reduces the amout of normal drones to 10 which makes them less efficient in destroying gangwarfare and lastly it reduce their damage output vs POSes by 50% making dreads useful.

Remove rigslots and balance their HP around 30M EHP fully fitted without bonuses so the supers don't mess with the rigmarket for battleships.

Remove their bonus to Remote Reps so they can't spidertank alone and would need carrier support.

Get Slaveallike implants for Shieldships in some way.

Reduce the jumprange to limit their powerprojection and increase the jumpfuelcost to make their use more of an effort.

Possibly give them XL rigslots which can be used to modify the supers to a more logistical role with increased hangar and shipbay as well as jumprange.

In short: Max 10 launched fighters, fighterbombers and drones. Same DPS as today with fighters but 50% reduction of fighterbombers and with drones. No RR. Reduced EHP so theire around 30M EHP. Increased cost of using and less power projection. Less efficient vs subcaps due to fighter sig res increase and 50% less drones launched.

Titan changes

Keep their EHP and increase the EHP of the Ragnarok. Remove rigslots.

Reduce jumprange and increase jumpfuel to limit power projection through Titan bridges and the Titan itself. I'd even want the bridge to be removed alltogether as bridgedropping is preventing ppl from fighting cus theres no way for ppl to know if theres reinforcements coming within the blink of an eye to the opposing gang.

DoomsDay might be fine with a Capital only version, but might be better to just or also increase its fuelcost to not only prevent DDing cheaper targets, but also limit how many times a Titan can DD in a fleetfight through its fuelbay, making each DD more valuable.

Keep the dronebay.

Summary
This will let the supers still have a role and a defence without being completely dependent on winning the subcap fights in fleetbattles. Through limiting the amount of drones launched it reduce their efficiency in affecting smaller gangs and with no RR ability on the supers themselves one might think twice about dropping a few supers on a smaller gang. Power projection through jumping and bridgeing is reduced which will increase smallgangs survivability and increased jumpfuelamount will make it costly to move a fleet of supercaps around.

This is a tweak to them and not a complete castration. If it fails to give the effect you want nothing prevents you from making further changes in the future.

Though at some point something must be done about the DD, it needs to be changed to some kind of effect rather than a weapon or just removed or Titan proliferation will just continue to increase and we're back to square one.

why use a sledge hammer to fix a couple of small cracks in your best bone china tea set

Got my post eaten too, this is irritating.


Got Eaten, Didn't Read version: 36M EHP on a supercap is already too much when compared to the Hp per isk ratio on other ships and the opportunity cost of taking one down. If you don't understand what the opportunity cost is, go check wikipedia.

when they say fighter singature radius has been increased to 400, is this both fighters and fighter bombers or what?

is a carrier now useless to rat in aswell? and what about wormhole carriers?

down in this post:
- preconditions for SC nerf are wrong
- nerfing SC's wrong in general
- it all in favor of botting

To me all past changes do is "driving SC's out of game. Making them less and less useful." And that that removing of drones is a peak of nonsense. It has no EVE world logic at all.

My assumption:
Perhaps CCP devs listening some once opinions when making this. But I'm afraid that those people are either not honest to EVE community or just very high in leadership position that they do get SC by clap a hands (most likely both).

Closer to the point:
What is SC for ordinary player who has built on his own?. Not to mention that it takes whole character to get stuck in SC.
It is ship that can give value in nice capital PVP for him, his corp, his alliance. Meanwhile if there is no PVP need SC pilot could make some ISK in his VERY expensive ship. (which expose him in danger getting tackled and killed)

What for SC's after this nerf? For rich, well rich alliances that can afford lose them a lot if "something goes wrong"? That change is in favor of those rich alliances just to make their separation from others even higher. Hm... who might want that?
Cause if you want to be cost efficient - you start using drednoughts due to their insurance... And what SC will do?

Long ago SC's were already nerfed for worse ratting abilities. Why? I didn't see anything bad in ratting SC... Nothing is wrong in that. Freaking expensive ship does ratting and getting used. If it is getting used it will be tackled at some point and die. But now instead of manual ratting in e.g. SC half of eve does botting. After nerf 3/4 will do botting? Well, compare you doing manually ratting in SC and some one botting with drake(s). What is better for real EVE players?

Preconditions for nerf:

1) Supercapitals are too hard to kill.
2) Supercarriers are far too versatile.
3) The Titan superweapon is too powerful.
4) Dreadnoughts are not good enough.
5) Remote ECM Bursts should not work on ships immune to ewar.
6) Sub-capitals are useless in fleet fights.


1) too hard to kill? really? I wouldn't say so as I seen many of those pops very quick being attacked sub-caps.
2) too versatile? really? a ship that can't really kill hictor on his own... that takes ages to lock cruser size or frig.... and if you need to swap fighters to drones it takes too long and time is everything.
3) titans - perhaps this is right precondition. So this step is for making gap between rich alliances and poor once smaller. When doing opposite with SC's...
4) dreds - absolutely correct
5) ECM - no comments that perhaps right
6) really? good to know... Now I know that all my fights before and titans/super kills were useless

As I see things:
- There is nothing wrong with SC's atm, absolutely nothing. They are just good. Nerfing them is a bonus for botting communities and bonus to very rich alliances (which are often the same).
- May be it is not bad idea to nefr a bit titans dooms day, but I'd draw border on BS size. BS and above can shot, cruser and below can't.
- YES, dreads needs boost. This one it self will bring needed balance.

As a short summary.
Why would player like to have/build an SC? (for him or for providing some abilities for his corp as individual)
Why would corp like to equip members with SC's? (if business wise dreds are safer, insurance, etc...)
This nerf will increase amount of botters -> ppl getting not fair advantage on those who stays in rules -> they will afford to use this nerfed SC's, as they can replace them in 2 weeks botting -> not good changes.

I'm in love with the log off timer change.

Future logs are showing a dramatic increase in selfdestructing ships. Especially capitals...

Perhaps it would be a good idea to allow killmails to be generated even though someone selfdestructs?

Just my 2p.

What are you talking about? The only HIC or Dictor with any kind of drone bay is the 5m­3 on the Eris, able to carry a single light drone.
They do have a token offensive capability inherited from the Tech 1 version of their hull, but generally this isn't a threat to anything more than a pod or hauler, which is one of the targets they're intended to hunt solo. They can't however kill capital ships solo, they need support for that.
Inversely, Supercarriers can still kill capital and super-capital sized targets using their offensive capability, which is exactly what they're designed to hunt. They now need support to kill sub-caps, which is how it should be.

BS often have to travel through gates to get home. They lack ewar-immunity and as such it's pretty fair for them to be able to fight off the weakest tacklers. Even with the drone bay they still have very, very little chance against an Interdictor or HIC, if you want to compare them to supercaps.
Supercaps always take the direct route home. The very nature of capital travel means that another friendly entitiy will always be involved in their movement, either an armed starbase with a beacon or a cynoship. You can use anything you like as that cynoship to protect the supercap.

Barges and cap industrial ships do not have ewar-immunity, ranged ECM bursts, or the ability to run large neuts/smartbombs without compromising their fit. This point is moot however as they're clearly not intended to be run without a support fleet already. Your argument is circular and redundant.

The ability to run 5 mining drones is clearly game-breaking. Please provide less ridiculous examples.


Using ECM on an unbonused ship is about as effective as using Fighters against a sub-capital. The option is there in both cases and scales quite well.

The key point that most people whining about drone bays seem to be missing is that a token dronebay will never, ever protect a supercap from a competent dictor pilot. No amount of drones is going to be popping that bubble placed outside of smartbomb range. This results in an issue of scale:
A lone supercap will need many drones to defend itself against tacklers - 5 mediums just won't cut it against a dictor pilot who drops a bubble, warps out and back in then cloaks before it's time for the next bubble. Unless the supercap has enough drones to nuke it in a few seconds, that dictor will hold him forever.
So what happens if we give it enough drones to do that? Sure a lone supercap becomes able to shake off a lone tackler. But then we get 10, 20, 50+ supercarriers in fleets who are suddently also able to shake off 10, 20 50+ dictors. Not accounting for scale is how we got into this mess in the first place.

Supercaps are the deathstars of EVE. They bring all the extreme firepower, but you should still need escorts to keep the X-Wing from the exhaust port.