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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#1521 - 2011-10-11 22:17:09 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
I don't know about you but its a wave of tears that I'm riding on.



It is good stuff although whats better is the tears to come. Winter O Winter I await thee.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#1522 - 2011-10-11 22:17:11 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
I don't know about you but its a wave of tears that I'm riding on.


Sadly, its losing momentum already...

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Carabusu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1523 - 2011-10-11 22:20:34 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Carabusu wrote:
xxxak wrote:
Update:

This nerf = Win Subcap battle, Kill all supers on the field.

So with this nerf, supers can no longer defend themselves from subcaps, and supers are committed for 23 hours once they cyno in.

That means that if you have a 15 man super fleet (mid size alliance), plus 120 sub caps (mid size alliance), and if lose the subcap battle, you also just lost all your supers.

Kthxbai. No way a sane super pilot will commit now unless they are 150% sure that they have a winning fleet. EVE is dead.


Other thoughts:

1) Nerfing fighters makes carriers even more crap. This was unnecessary.
2) Supercarriers should at least be able to carry 20 FB + 20 fighters
3) The removal of the drone bay is a nerf to small alliances who are more likely to use a small number of "ninja" supercarrier tactics. Now those supercarriers can get tackled and killed much more easily by even a small/medium gang of subcaps.
4) Huge alliances that can field huge fleets (super cap gang+proper sub cap fleet) will be even more powerful.
5) Supercarriers are no longer good for anything but shooting POS mods and Sov mods. LOL.

The nerf should have been as follows:
1) Fix logoffski timer
2) DD can only hit caps
3) Small EHP reduction for supercarriers

Those three fixes alone would have been enough to start.

Can some Dev explain the decision to not even let SC carry 20 fighters??

Actually, looking more at the fighter nerf.... what can they hit now? POS mods? LOL. Huge stealth carrier nerf. Care to explain this one as well?


Could not have said this better. Well put.

Typical CCP Balancing = "Grab your axes boys...we're goin' nerfin!"

This is seriously a sad thing. Trained my butt off for a LOOOOOONG time, spent billions of ISK, and now my Super Carrier will SIT in a POS doing NOTHING until there's a POS to shoot/rep ? At least before I could Rat to pass the time. Now, I can't even do that. You, CCP, should slow down a bit. Just the 3 ideas above definitely would have been enough to start.


derp, you can still carry 20 fighters.

Just not 20 fighters + 20 fighter bombers.

Next.



lol the point was that you had to choose 20 Fighters or 20 Bombers which sucks. For those of us that ACTUALLY fly Super Carriers, we know first hand just how much of a PITA (Pain In The A**) it is to change out drones, especially Fighters/Bombers just due to their size alone.

I guess that you missed that part...

Fly Well, Kill Many The Busu

Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#1524 - 2011-10-11 22:25:44 UTC
Like i said

People are crying because they bought apples which tasted like strawberries only for the reason that they tasted like strawberries. And now that they're being made to taste like ******* apples, tears are flowing.

I always said to everybody not to buy supercarriers for the reasons they wanted to, because they would get nerfed. Those people would call me crazy and say CCP doesn't fix anything.


Who is laughing now huh...

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1525 - 2011-10-11 22:28:09 UTC
Carabusu wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Carabusu wrote:
xxxak wrote:
Update:

This nerf = Win Subcap battle, Kill all supers on the field.

So with this nerf, supers can no longer defend themselves from subcaps, and supers are committed for 23 hours once they cyno in.

That means that if you have a 15 man super fleet (mid size alliance), plus 120 sub caps (mid size alliance), and if lose the subcap battle, you also just lost all your supers.

Kthxbai. No way a sane super pilot will commit now unless they are 150% sure that they have a winning fleet. EVE is dead.


Other thoughts:

1) Nerfing fighters makes carriers even more crap. This was unnecessary.
2) Supercarriers should at least be able to carry 20 FB + 20 fighters
3) The removal of the drone bay is a nerf to small alliances who are more likely to use a small number of "ninja" supercarrier tactics. Now those supercarriers can get tackled and killed much more easily by even a small/medium gang of subcaps.
4) Huge alliances that can field huge fleets (super cap gang+proper sub cap fleet) will be even more powerful.
5) Supercarriers are no longer good for anything but shooting POS mods and Sov mods. LOL.

The nerf should have been as follows:
1) Fix logoffski timer
2) DD can only hit caps
3) Small EHP reduction for supercarriers

Those three fixes alone would have been enough to start.

Can some Dev explain the decision to not even let SC carry 20 fighters??

Actually, looking more at the fighter nerf.... what can they hit now? POS mods? LOL. Huge stealth carrier nerf. Care to explain this one as well?


Could not have said this better. Well put.

Typical CCP Balancing = "Grab your axes boys...we're goin' nerfin!"

This is seriously a sad thing. Trained my butt off for a LOOOOOONG time, spent billions of ISK, and now my Super Carrier will SIT in a POS doing NOTHING until there's a POS to shoot/rep ? At least before I could Rat to pass the time. Now, I can't even do that. You, CCP, should slow down a bit. Just the 3 ideas above definitely would have been enough to start.


derp, you can still carry 20 fighters.

Just not 20 fighters + 20 fighter bombers.

Next.



lol the point was that you had to choose 20 Fighters or 20 Bombers which sucks. For those of us that ACTUALLY fly Super Carriers, we know first hand just how much of a PITA (Pain In The A**) it is to change out drones, especially Fighters/Bombers just due to their size alone.

I guess that you missed that part...


I know, the point is that there is a choice, unlike what you said initially. Also, if you are ratting with fighters, have a pos in system and store the unused FBs there.
Airu Naari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1526 - 2011-10-11 22:30:58 UTC
I can't begin to say how happy this makes me. CCP is on to something good this time! And +1 @ Renan's post above. :D
Carabusu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1527 - 2011-10-11 22:34:52 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Carabusu wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Carabusu wrote:
xxxak wrote:
Update:

This nerf = Win Subcap battle, Kill all supers on the field.

So with this nerf, supers can no longer defend themselves from subcaps, and supers are committed for 23 hours once they cyno in.

That means that if you have a 15 man super fleet (mid size alliance), plus 120 sub caps (mid size alliance), and if lose the subcap battle, you also just lost all your supers.

Kthxbai. No way a sane super pilot will commit now unless they are 150% sure that they have a winning fleet. EVE is dead.


Other thoughts:

1) Nerfing fighters makes carriers even more crap. This was unnecessary.
2) Supercarriers should at least be able to carry 20 FB + 20 fighters
3) The removal of the drone bay is a nerf to small alliances who are more likely to use a small number of "ninja" supercarrier tactics. Now those supercarriers can get tackled and killed much more easily by even a small/medium gang of subcaps.
4) Huge alliances that can field huge fleets (super cap gang+proper sub cap fleet) will be even more powerful.
5) Supercarriers are no longer good for anything but shooting POS mods and Sov mods. LOL.

The nerf should have been as follows:
1) Fix logoffski timer
2) DD can only hit caps
3) Small EHP reduction for supercarriers

Those three fixes alone would have been enough to start.

Can some Dev explain the decision to not even let SC carry 20 fighters??

Actually, looking more at the fighter nerf.... what can they hit now? POS mods? LOL. Huge stealth carrier nerf. Care to explain this one as well?


Could not have said this better. Well put.

Typical CCP Balancing = "Grab your axes boys...we're goin' nerfin!"

This is seriously a sad thing. Trained my butt off for a LOOOOOONG time, spent billions of ISK, and now my Super Carrier will SIT in a POS doing NOTHING until there's a POS to shoot/rep ? At least before I could Rat to pass the time. Now, I can't even do that. You, CCP, should slow down a bit. Just the 3 ideas above definitely would have been enough to start.


derp, you can still carry 20 fighters.

Just not 20 fighters + 20 fighter bombers.

Next.



lol the point was that you had to choose 20 Fighters or 20 Bombers which sucks. For those of us that ACTUALLY fly Super Carriers, we know first hand just how much of a PITA (Pain In The A**) it is to change out drones, especially Fighters/Bombers just due to their size alone.

I guess that you missed that part...


I know, the point is that there is a choice, unlike what you said initially. Also, if you are ratting with fighters, have a pos in system and store the unused FBs there.


Well, the point about storage is moot as the change seems to be fairly certain at this point. Maybe I didn't type what I was thinking, but all I ever did was agree with the guy when he was talking about how lame it was that you had to choose between 20 fighters or 20 bombers.

Judging by the fact that you seem to have input and an opinion on every page that I've been reading since before page 70, I'm going to just save you the trouble and say "You're right I'm wrong..."

Fly Well, Kill Many The Busu

Damian Gene
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#1528 - 2011-10-11 22:37:07 UTC
Mioelnir wrote:
I do not even know where to begin, and as a Hel pilot I have a pretty high resistance to tragedy.

Logout timer: this will increase the number of intentionally logged out supers (as counterintuitive as it is). An online supercapital can right now be held on the field by 3 things - dictor bubbles, hic point/bubble, anchored bubble. After this change, a drive-by shooting by an Ibis that gets off 2 shots (one for creating the timer, one for aggressing within that timer), means you have 30 minutes of infinitely-extendable aggression (remember the good old wreck-shooting).
An aggressed supercapital should stay in space for 15 minutes (like now), and after that for as long as it is bubbled or hic-pointed. I'm not going to do the math if a tech 2 velator could actually kill a supercapital within 23 hours, but if it can't, then downtime is the ONLY thing saving the supercap.
This in turn means a move back to a lot more aggression avoidance.

Supercarrier Dronetype change: Why not make Warrior IIs unfittable on battleships so the poor frigates do not get killed? I understand where the urge for this change comes from, but giving subcaps de facto immunity seems a bit much considered the only ships that can tackle them are destroyer/cruiser hulls.
There is little shame losing a super to a well coordinated trap, but the absolutely only business a single planless dictor solo engaging a super has is dying - not being granted possibly infinite amounts of near-invulnerable time to figure out what to do next. 300m3 dronebay for 20 lights and 20 meds (or rep drones) should be considered. Yes there are battleships dying to solo frigates all the time - but they had the option to fit something that helps and did not do it.

Supercarrier Fighterbay Size: given how hard fighters and fighter-bombers are to field-resupply (short of jumping a cargo-rorqual into an ongoing battle lol), how near impossible they are to rep (locktime, indeterminate flightpath), and how easily they die, I see a lot of useless supers 10 minutes into any engagement they are accidentally deployed into in our future. Will they receive more HP / better resistances? Or will there be a supercarrier retcon to capital bombers with 600m ISK bombs that jump in, deploy and (hope to somehow) jump out?

Titan dronebay: Yes, those 375m3 were the one gamebreaking attribute they had. All is well now. Please move along, nothing to see here.

Siege module: since it doesn't really change anything but the time needed for pos-ops, good.

Dreadnought dronebay: I love this change, since with this I do not have to wait another year or two for the "hey look, my sentry drone bumped your dread 500km offgrid" bug to be fixed. The single tackling rifter is going to be annoying though.

SC/Titan HP nerf: if 20% of a Hel were the same as 20% of an Aeon, I could subscribe to this change, but even if the Hel stays as it is, the -20% Aeon would still have twice the EHP. Consequently, this just reads to me as "ALL MINMATAR - BEND OVER NOW." Analog for the Ragnarok.

Not in the blog but needed changes:
Shield recharge: remove it from all capitals. Have capital shields behave like armor. Introduce +Capital Shield HP implant set (no drake/tengu love).

Hel bonus: either bring it inline with the other 3 supercarriers (offensive or defensive bonus), or fix its cap so it can actually use its bonus. +25% rep amount is ueless when you need twice the cap transfer amount of a nyx to not cap out (which gives you +100% rep and moar damage).

Dreadnought tracking: in theory, this would need a buff, but can be kept as is, since there will not be any big capital fights after this patch anyway.

Overall predictions for the proposed changes:
- dreads will still only be used to reinforce towers (not finish), and with the 5min timers they will be harder to catch doing so. they will continue to not be used against anything that can't be one-cycled, since they remain extremely vulnerable to supers and have to, or supers will lose their last remaining role. Having nothing to fend off tacklers on their own does not help either.

- carriers basically same as above. main use emergency logistics and triage-pos-boost, although they may see the odd use for structure grinding if no fight is to be expected. Since they can still launch drones that can effectively fight fighterbombers, they may get fielded in 200+ quantities so they generate enough remote rep to neutralize and finish off any supers on the field.

- supers will largely vanish from the battlefield again, since having a support fleet changed from smart play to required necessity. This implies the total loss of your supers, if you do not have dominance of the subcap fight - at which point you do not really need to deploy supers anymore. Since this is true for both sides, noone will dare to make the first move (depending on their knowledge of game theory).
Main use will be as a strategic deterrent against hostile dread/carrier deployments from within pos shields. Second most common usage will be parked on an inactive account. Highlight of the year might be a structure grind deployment if no hostile is logged in.


^ This

This is very good content, well thought out, and I like this.

You should run for CSM :)
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1529 - 2011-10-11 22:37:16 UTC
Carabusu wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Carabusu wrote:
[quote=Demon Azrakel][quote=Carabusu]


lol the point was that you had to choose 20 Fighters or 20 Bombers which sucks. For those of us that ACTUALLY fly Super Carriers, we know first hand just how much of a PITA (Pain In The A**) it is to change out drones, especially Fighters/Bombers just due to their size alone.

I guess that you missed that part...


I know, the point is that there is a choice, unlike what you said initially. Also, if you are ratting with fighters, have a pos in system and store the unused FBs there.


Well, the point about storage is moot as the change seems to be fairly certain at this point. Maybe I didn't type what I was thinking, but all I ever did was agree with the guy when he was talking about how lame it was that you had to choose between 20 fighters or 20 bombers.

Judging by the fact that you seem to have input and an opinion on every page that I've been reading since before page 70, I'm going to just save you the trouble and say "You're right I'm wrong..."


It is all in motion, and they may have gone a little bit far either way.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#1530 - 2011-10-11 22:37:25 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Like i said

People are crying because they bought apples which tasted like strawberries only for the reason that they tasted like strawberries. And now that they're being made to taste like ******* apples, tears are flowing.

I always said to everybody not to buy supercarriers for the reasons they wanted to, because they would get nerfed. Those people would call me crazy and say CCP doesn't fix anything.


Who is laughing now huh...


+2

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Floydd Heywood
Doomheim
#1531 - 2011-10-11 22:39:53 UTC
When one skims this thread page per page to find CSM/DEV posts, one notices that it's mostly the same 10 guys posting over and over for the last couple dozens pages. Go out and catch some fresh air, fellows :D
Carabusu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1532 - 2011-10-11 22:40:37 UTC
Carabusu wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Carabusu wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
[quote=Carabusu]


lol the point was that you had to choose 20 Fighters or 20 Bombers which sucks. For those of us that ACTUALLY fly Super Carriers, we know first hand just how much of a PITA (Pain In The A**) it is to change out drones, especially Fighters/Bombers just due to their size alone.

I guess that you missed that part...


I know, the point is that there is a choice, unlike what you said initially. Also, if you are ratting with fighters, have a pos in system and store the unused FBs there.


Well, the point about storage is moot as the change seems to be fairly certain at this point. Maybe I didn't type what I was thinking, but all I ever did was agree with the guy when he was talking about how lame it was that you had to choose between 20 fighters or 20 bombers.

Judging by the fact that you seem to have input and an opinion on every page that I've been reading since before page 70, I'm going to just save you the trouble and say "You're right I'm wrong..."


It is all in motion, and they may have gone a little bit far either way.


Yeah for sure. I think at this point, everything that can be said, has been said and the best thing is to sit back and await the changes to hit SISI. Otherwise everything is just theorycraft and speculation.

For now, we know what CCP has on it's mind (or lack thereof for that matter), and the best thing the community can do is actually put some real thought into whats coming. Forego the mindless banter and personal opinion, and think big picture about what benefits the ENTIRE community. This includes everyone from the brand new account that is 2 hours old, to the seasoned 8 year old vet....

Fly Well, Kill Many The Busu

WarFireV
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1533 - 2011-10-11 22:42:01 UTC
Floydd Heywood wrote:
When one skims this thread page per page to find CSM/DEV posts, one notices that it's mostly the same 10 guys posting over and over for the last couple dozens pages. Go out and catch some fresh air, fellows :D


No, they must stay and make there point heard to everyone! Everyone must know what a horrible/awesome expansion this is going to be!

Also it's pretty entertaining to watch.
Zomg Panties
MOOLOAF INDUSTRIES
#1534 - 2011-10-11 22:42:13 UTC
Evil Celeste wrote:
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Evil Celeste wrote:
If you are looking for solopwnmobile yes. If you are loking for balanced pvp enviroment with alot of variety, then its best way.


Is best way lol, your insaine, a bunch of fail in shield tanked blaster prophecys with a dictor are able to kill a super after this patch, an the super is unable to do anything about it. If you dont have a dynamic well structured fleet compisition and good plan you neither deserve to kill a super/titan or should be able to. This patch is carebearing it down, so nubs in there fail mishmash fleets can down supers/titans. Supers/titans wont be fielded solo, an they wont be fielded in a system for more time than it takes them to jump out again after this patch. Supers/titans will purely be used to counter drop a capital target or lesser number of capital targets, wich yet again defeats the purpose of this patch supposedly being able to balance out super/titan fleet fights. Will do completely the opposite.


Umad? I know it hurts when you have to grind your isk for solopwmobile by your own and then after it turns to be "fleet ship", but deal with it. Its better for balance and pvp enviroment. But tbh supercaps deserved much bigger hit.



please stop trolling you must be a 5 mill skill point character, nothing you say makes sense, nobody with any common sense who is actually good at nullsec pvp would say any of the things you say - it's so easy to kill a super carrier that I laugh at your level of fail

go troll the carebear online forums noob
SuperBeastie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1535 - 2011-10-11 22:42:20 UTC
Why cant ships that are the size of a mach dock make the super carrier models bigger!!!!

[center]SuperBeastie's Third Party Service My in-game Channel is Supers Third Party[/center]

Dunn Idaho
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#1536 - 2011-10-11 22:43:04 UTC
Personally I would like to see a some further changes to the dreads and the siege mod.
Instead of the active rep bonus it has now, it would be better if it increased its resistance when in siege so they could tank a DD or two.
Since hitting siege is like going into reinforced mode. (kinda like em POS's)

The active tank bonus was prolly fine back in the day when there was less caps around, and caps where rare in general.
Nowadays its all about the blobs and the EHP in large battles, and the siege module should reflect that and the "modern" eve warfare.

And yeah, give us atleast 20/20 on the fighterbombers/fighters if we cant have any other drones.
Carabusu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1537 - 2011-10-11 22:43:42 UTC
Floydd Heywood wrote:
When one skims this thread page per page to find CSM/DEV posts, one notices that it's mostly the same 10 guys posting over and over for the last couple dozens pages. Go out and catch some fresh air, fellows :D



hehe, well, a lot of us have a vested interest in this man. Whether it's because of the sheer amount of training that went into the SC/Titan, or the ISK, or any combination in between, it's somewhat important. Sure, it's just internet spaceships at the end of the day, but anyone that has EARNED the ISK to sit in a Super will tell you it's important to them. That's not even touching on the point at hand which is those that have been fighting against the SC/Titan super blobs. They have their own vested interest in forward motion.

It's all good conversation. Gotta let it all ride.Blink


Fly Well, Kill Many The Busu

Neterti Axexut
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1538 - 2011-10-11 22:51:53 UTC
SCs needed to be rebalanced. They were overpowered. But now, for all the reasons in this thread, SCs are reduced to specific purpose T2 Carriers. Many people here have already offered great suggestions, so I won’t beat a dead horse.

Titans got it worse TBH. The biggest, baddest ship in the game just became more of a mobile JB then it was before. Yes: The gunboat titans can still hit a BS, but will have a hard time killing anything else. And the DD, even after the HP nerf of SCs, is not sufficient to do meaningful damage against a SC. (Yes – I know it was not intended for a solo SC / Titan brawl)

An idea that should work would be to allow DDs to fire at anything (like before) but apply some sig radius effect on the target ship. The DD would do full damage against a titan or SC, less against a dread or carrier, less still on a BS and so on. (I would suggest some script to allow an AOE DD that applies damage with even greater sig-radius related damage reducing effect, but not in the mood to dodge all the items thrown at me ATM)

And the Leviathan has specifically gotten it the worst of all: Very limited ability to hit any moving target with the Citadels (worse than the gunboat titans) and no ability to increase that chance like the other titans can through tracking enhancing mods.

Finally, the HP nerf makes it all the more important to either 1) fix the way the shield bonuses are applied so we don’t jump in at 75% shields, and / or 2) give us some Capital-class Shield equivalent to the slave set. This would help the unfortunate shield tanking SCs and titans and get us up to par with the armor tankers.

(Yes - I fly an Aeon and a Levi)
InnerDrive
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1539 - 2011-10-11 23:08:19 UTC
The tracking on dreads seriously needs to be looked at , currently a dread has huge issues hitting a titan of supercarrier moving at full speed , especialy if those have a MWD fitted.
Korvin
Shadow Kingdom
Best Alliance
#1540 - 2011-10-11 23:10:52 UTC

I'm sorry to ask, but what is the system of these changes?
What is the goal?
Can you define the role of capital ships?


I remember there was a role of Dreadnoughts as a mobile structure to fight another static structures called POSes. Subcap fleet was needed to defend them in siege.




TBH, instead of making dread siege 5 min - you should make other capitals effective only in siege/triage.
instead of removing normal drones from carriers, you should change them the way, when they could release their fighters only in triage.

Motherships and Titans are still capitals, so they should operate in full power only in siege, or they will be overpowered or useless at all.

Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8