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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1401 - 2011-10-11 19:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Velin Dhal
Floydd Heywood wrote:
trademeyourmoneys wrote:
Floydd Heywood wrote:
Great blog, especially after the fighter nerf is taken out :)

Everyone has access to supercaps, it really doesnt take long to train/make isk. I spent around 2 months making isk to get enough to get a super if i wanted one


Well all the better, if supercaps are cheap and quick to skill, then nobody is harmed by their demise and they should best be taken out of this game completely Twisted

No single individual should be able to fill a role as powerful and versatile like what supers can do now. It leads to small alliances of all-vets no-rooks dominating space, which completely defeats the purpose of a persistent MMO where newer players should always be needed to swell the ranks of alliances to fill roles the old vets have outgrown but that are still vital for the alliance's success. If the supercap vets can do it all alone, the game dies.


If Super Capitals are so easy to get into, then why doesn't everyone have the skills for them ? If they are so cheap, why doesn't everyone have enough isk to buy them ? You don't train up a character to fly a Super Capital in a few months. You may be able to sit in the ship in a far sorter amount of time but sitting in a ship and actually flying the ship well is completely different. I really don't understand when it became a bad thing to have high SP toons. Getting penalized for working hard in this game is a stupid idea.

It really isn't that hard to get enough isk to have one so long as you work for what you have. Though in the case of certain pilots, they can just buy a massive amount of PLEX and not have to step on your ship spinning style.

Your acting like Super Caps are ruining this game. They aren't. What is ruining this game are the incredible amount of people these days that are afraid of losing a ship. Then when they do, fill local with their **** talking.

I agree that Super Caps need some fine tuning, but the proposed nerf is destruction rather than tuning. These ships aren't killing the game. Just load up your in game map, set you filter to show system population, and stare at the giant mass of people care bearing in high sec.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1402 - 2011-10-11 19:27:39 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Your acting like Super Caps are ruining this game.
…and they are, since we've arrived at a situation where the answer is increasingly “more caps”.

The mere fact that those who are clinging to their SCs right now all spout some form of “so get one yourself” is the ultimate example of why they need to be fixed: because that should never be the answer — the answer should always be to get something completely different that acts as a hard counter for the ship.
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#1403 - 2011-10-11 19:28:38 UTC
DigitalCommunist wrote:

In my opinion, Motherships/SC should be the ideal mobile support base for small to medium sized gangs (up to 30), and the ultimate wet dream for corporations who want to live in deep space without laying a very visible and vulnerable claim to it. Their primary role should be to have a secret and safe gathering point with basic facilities such as cloning and production. It's main defense would be stealth and the relative mobility that starbases do not have. Once discovered it needs to be defended just like any other asset.

Titans on the other hand are even simpler. If there is more than 3-6 in the hands of players at any given moment, something is fundamentally wrong with their implementation. This means that a Titan should be able to support an alliance fleet and essentially bring your sov / space with you much in the same way a real world supercarrier acts as a staging point for planes and bombers. It would cost a lot to upkeep in both manpower and resources, it would be very visible and impossible to hide, it would not be any more defenseless than a deathstar POS. It would be something you park in any system you want to control but don't and probably won't anytime soon (examples; YZ, NOL, BKG, AZN, etc).


This. Less pwnmobile, more mobile base please.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1404 - 2011-10-11 19:30:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Your acting like Super Caps are ruining this game.
…and they are, since we've arrived at a situation where the answer is increasingly “more caps”.

The mere fact that those who are clinging to their SCs right now all spout some form of “so get one yourself” is the ultimate example of why they need to be fixed: because that should never be the answer — the answer should always be to get something completely different that acts as a hard counter for the ship.


That option already exists in the game. If you bring the correct fleet you can counter Super Capitals.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1405 - 2011-10-11 19:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Velin Dhal wrote:
That option already exists in the game. If you bring the correct fleet you can counter Super Capitals.
The problem is that “the correct fleet“ is simply N+1 SCs.

This change addresses that — not only are they moving to N+1 SCs being the wrong answer, but also changing the other side of it, where the SCs also have to bring the correct fleet. Of course, as we see here, this balance has SC owners up in arms because they don't want to bring the right tools. This means the change is 100% good.
miningtool
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1406 - 2011-10-11 19:36:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
That option already exists in the game. If you bring the correct fleet you can counter Super Capitals.
The problem is that “the correct fleet“ is simply N+1 SCs.



no the fleet is a nuet fleet turning hardeners off nukes the ehp of all ships
kralz
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1407 - 2011-10-11 19:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: kralz
Kalaratiri wrote:
DigitalCommunist wrote:

In my opinion, Motherships/SC should be the ideal mobile support base for small to medium sized gangs (up to 30), and the ultimate wet dream for corporations who want to live in deep space without laying a very visible and vulnerable claim to it. Their primary role should be to have a secret and safe gathering point with basic facilities such as cloning and production. It's main defense would be stealth and the relative mobility that starbases do not have. Once discovered it needs to be defended just like any other asset.

Titans on the other hand are even simpler. If there is more than 3-6 in the hands of players at any given moment, something is fundamentally wrong with their implementation. This means that a Titan should be able to support an alliance fleet and essentially bring your sov / space with you much in the same way a real world supercarrier acts as a staging point for planes and bombers. It would cost a lot to upkeep in both manpower and resources, it would be very visible and impossible to hide, it would not be any more defenseless than a deathstar POS. It would be something you park in any system you want to control but don't and probably won't anytime soon (examples; YZ, NOL, BKG, AZN, etc).


This. Less pwnmobile, more mobile base please.



while i dont ENTIRELY disagree. dont rorquals act as mobile bases? i mean thats what i use mine for...and of course compressing ore to make...more caps :)...so more people can have wtf pwn mobiles...but...i do not totally disagree with super carriers being taken down a notch or two. this thread has gotten to be so much about super carriers tho...to me..the 2 most effed up ships in ever are dreads and

dreads...totally overshadowed by the majestic titan...and it should be, but come on, my dread shouldnt have to go into some special mode to have access to ALL of is damage. and my dread shouldnt miss every shot, i should do to a abaddon what a titan can do to me. utterly disassemble it with extra large chunks of antimatter.

titans should honestly be the ships with tracking problems, it makes no sense for a titan to be able to shred battle ships when a dread, with the same type of guns cannot even hit them....even if a dread has to go into siege mode to have better tracking, i would be cool with that, i mean i am diverting all the power from my engines to local tank and....guns, ur saying more power to guns = not faster tracking? odd.

i think if u made super carriers unable to be remote rapped or remoted aided in any way it would go a LONG way to balancing them out. if the dread goes into seige to get its power, and immunity, why then do supers, which always have that immunity not have to seige? they could be considered to be in perma seige but with mobility, no RR nothing. would make for a scary jump in since i cannot receive cap transfers. would have to recharge all on my own, and running my local tank would put me well below jump capacitor levels. very vulnerable indeed...
when i land on any field with my super the 1st time i do is look to my capacitor. (mashes nee cap button over and over again) so i can jump the the emergancy cyno and GTFO if need be as soon as possible.

just saying
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1408 - 2011-10-11 19:40:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
That option already exists in the game. If you bring the correct fleet you can counter Super Capitals.
The problem is that “the correct fleet“ is simply N+1 SCs.


Hardly. Super Capitals can be easily countered with nothing but T2 cruisers.

If people were really concerned with Capital warfare, they would boost Carriers and Dreds EHP to make then stand up better in Capital warfare.

Or

Do what they did years and years ago. When Battleships were the top boats in space and eventually everyone had one. So they introduced new ships. Carriers and Dreds. Here is a novel idea, introduce a new ship or rework the titan to be Super Cap killers. People will think twice if you increase the DD damage output so that it can one shot a SC. Then again I doubt most of the people hating on Supers here have the slightest care in the world for these possible solutions because if they can't kill it with a couple battleships, it must be OP.
Kari Kari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1409 - 2011-10-11 19:41:00 UTC
Klytior Am'jarhs wrote:
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:
I would like my 12 million SP in drones on my Nyx pilot back which are now completely worthless. With subcap nerfs a pilot can switch out into another ship and still get use out of your drone skills. My Nyx pilot will not be able to due so.

It is only fair for CCP to let us change these skills around. They can nerf the ships all they want, and that is totally cool, but the wasted money on subscription fees and time for skills which can't be used at all is pretty crazy.

This is especially true considering most of us bought a 2nd account, paid sub fees for a year or more for our SC pilot accounts, and are now stuck in the ship with skills trained for that specific ship.


Why should you have something everybody else didn't get when other ships where balanced/nerfed.
I think you have had an unfair advantage long enough.
Training a account just to fly one ship in eve kinda proves the point that they are overpowered don't you think?


He put the training into it... had the isk to do it... duh ... come one now.
Kari Kari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1410 - 2011-10-11 19:41:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kari Kari wrote:
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:
I would like my 12 million SP in drones on my Nyx pilot back which are now completely worthless. With subcap nerfs a pilot can switch out into another ship and still get use out of your drone skills. My Nyx pilot will not be able to due so.

It is only fair for CCP to let us change these skills around. They can nerf the ships all they want, and that is totally cool, but the wasted money on subscription fees and time for skills which can't be used at all is pretty crazy.

This is especially true considering most of us bought a 2nd account, paid sub fees for a year or more for our SC pilot accounts, and are now stuck in the ship with skills trained for that specific ship.


Pure Epic post here. CCP you better do this.


Yeah or he'll quit for... what is he up to now? the sixth time? The seventh?


Hey its a Boblet... posting in a grown persons thread.
SuperBeastie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1411 - 2011-10-11 19:42:00 UTC
supers caps with all the implants and x-types ehp is as follow (not including fleet boosts)

Aeon 55m ehp
Hel 30m ehp
Nyx 36m ehp
Wyvern 43m ehp

now if you neut them out

Aeon 21m ehp
Hel 7.7m ehp
Nyx 15.3m ehp
Wyvern 9.4m ehp

logged off but not nueted

Aeon 19m ehp
Hel 23m ehp
Nyx 16m ehp
Wyvern 25m ehp

now if they are logged off and nueted their ehp is

Aeon 6.5m ehp
Hel 4.5m ehp
Nyx 6.3m ehp
Wyvern 4.4m ehp


The only real changes that are necessary are the doomsday, super caps being limited to fighters/bombers and the log off mechanic.

ECM BURST IN LOW SEC NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT ITS BROKEN!!!!

Changing their drone bay to barely be better than a thanatos on a wyvern is just silly!


Eve is about figuring out how to counter what your enemy sends at you for instance supers are killed by nuets

Spoiler alert: the key to killing super caps is turning their hardeners off

a Wyvern with hardeners has 43m ehp
a Wyvern without hardeners has 12m ehp

so lets say you field a 100 man fleet which anyone who is taking on super caps should be able to field and its a easy number. also your fielding hurricanes because they are cheap.

canes deal 500dps and nuet out 360gj every 12 seconds per ship

so in 36 seconds you turn the hardeners off on any super cap with this fleet

in another 240 seconds you would melt the Wyvern off the field with 50k dps killing 20b with 4b isk worth of ships


Now if the Wyvern had tried logging off it would only have 4m ehp because you lose skill bonuses and implants so it would only take 80 seconds to melt it off the field with a 100man cane fleet


Changes that need to happen




  • hel rebalanced to be more inline with other supers a straight 20% to all won't really help
  • the way armor bonuses are applied is drastically better than shield bonuses
  • ECM Burst in low sec is so broken its not even funny.
  • Something to make the levithan more on par with other titans fleet boosting wise. For instance the levi gives you 37.5 shields that you have to rep up before it takes effect and if you're dropping into a hostile fleet that is worthless while the erebus avatar and rags bonuses are immediately applied
  • DREAD tracking carriers and supers should not be able to speed tank dreads
  • logoff mechanic
  • subcap doomsdays
  • Supers fighters/bombers only



Those changes would cover everything and I would not have to let me super account go inactive because the ship is completely useless

[center]SuperBeastie's Third Party Service My in-game Channel is Supers Third Party[/center]
Kheper Ra
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1412 - 2011-10-11 19:42:04 UTC
Clolo wrote:
Sarrgon wrote:
Also what I think a lot are forgetting is the effect this will have on the mineral market. For how many of them are now going for caps and super caps, with a big reduction in the demand for caps of any kind, means a lot more minerals that will remain on the market and prices will crash. Needs to be some sort of balance in there to equal it out. Or Eve's economy will be worse then what it is now.


Removing ore from the low end wormholes will help with this a little.


The logistics of getting ore out of a wormhole to the market on a consistent basis enough times by enough corporations to have an effect on the EVE economy is not based in fact. Without going into the mechanics of wormhole life, lets just say that corps don't move into wormholes for the ore. The revenue from sleeper sites and ladar sites super-cedes the revenue from the A.B.C ore probably by a factor of five to seven. Also in order to effectively get the ore out you would need a Rorq to grind the ore, (which would have to be built inside the wormhole) but the cost/benefit is probably not worth it just for moving the ore out. Most of the ore inside the wormhole is consumed for local use.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1413 - 2011-10-11 19:42:40 UTC
miningtool wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
That option already exists in the game. If you bring the correct fleet you can counter Super Capitals.
The problem is that “the correct fleet“ is simply N+1 SCs.



no the fleet is a nuet fleet turning hardeners off nukes the ehp of all ships


That works really well for 1-4 supercaps.

However there are now several thousand in game.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
R0ze
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1414 - 2011-10-11 19:42:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Avon wrote:
I have read you post this many times in this thread, but I don't understand the basis of your argument.

Are you saying that ships should not be better just because they are more expensive?
Yes.

Instead, cost should (probably) be a result of performance. Better-performing ship → Higher cost. The beauty of this relationship is that a working market will make it happen automatically. Better performance will lead to higher popularity, which leads to higher demand, which drives prices up. So you don't even have to pick the base price all that well for the whole thing to work.

With that logic hurricanes and drakes (earlier) would need to cost more than a BS or even a carrier by now ..
Kari Kari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1415 - 2011-10-11 19:44:27 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
SERIOUSLY LETS PAY ATTENTION REALLY QUICK.


AN 900 MILLION ISK CARRIER CAN LAUNCH 10 WARRIOR 2'S TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A SABER






BUT



AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPER CARRIER CAN'T.


That sounds fair and balanced and normal to everybody here that makes this game?

To be very clear, I do not own a supercarrier, and do not care about them whatsoever, I'm just trying to make sure we're all working with the same amount of sanity.



"Sir I keep firing our planet destroying super weapon but I can't seem to hit that x-wing!"



Another goon CSM getting what goons need to hit the IWIN botton...total fail... CCP you should limit 1 csm per alliance.
Argus Sorn
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1416 - 2011-10-11 19:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Argus Sorn
Overall, I like the changes and think they are an improvement. However I think they are a bit contrived. I like changes to make "sense" within the game fiction, and so I wonder why supers are unable to field drones? I mean, maybe whatever system that is in place to provide EWAR immunity prevents drone communications... but you get the idea....

That being said I was acutally in favor of a bigger nerf. Give them 33% of the HP they do now, make them take 33% of the minerals, reduce the drone bonus to 1 per level (33% and same as the carrier). Decide what their role is really intended to be (because I am not sure we've decided this) and buff that role - drone bonus for combat, maybe logi bonuses or command bonuses, etc.. They still get all drones and bombers but get a smaller drone bay so you can't just fit everything you want in them

At the same time, make them dockable. The idea is to bring them more in line with a tier 3 carrier that is dockable.

Then, because super owners will be upset that you just cut the value of their ship to 1/3 of what it had been - give them all two free hulls.

I wonder how much this current proposal will fix things because the balance of power between standard capitals and super capitals may not really change - but it will definitely be a welcome change and good to see how it plays out but my own belief is that it needs more.

Argus
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1417 - 2011-10-11 19:45:42 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
miningtool wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
That option already exists in the game. If you bring the correct fleet you can counter Super Capitals.
The problem is that “the correct fleet“ is simply N+1 SCs.



no the fleet is a nuet fleet turning hardeners off nukes the ehp of all ships


That works really well for 1-4 supercaps.

However there are now several thousand in game.


When was the last time someone dropped several thousand super caps on you ?
cpu939
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1418 - 2011-10-11 19:45:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
No1 is argueing about that people should stay an fight an commit, im talking about as I will yet again repeat, how is it going to be fair and just that people who disconnect due to no fualt of there own should suffer the penalty?
And I'm saying: it won't make any difference for them since they didn't disconnect on purpose and will therefore log right back in — they wouldn't have stretched into that (potential) first renewal anyway.


and when you internet drops due to some problem at the providers end how are you to log back in. so far i have had 2 service drop outs this week 1st was over 12 hours 2nd was just over 3 hours
Napoleon Bonapart
Draconis Holding Corporation
#1419 - 2011-10-11 19:46:33 UTC
I do have one other concern, may have already addressed but there are so many :words: here it's hard to see.

In regards to the logoff timer.....If servers crash while you are in combat does that clear your aggression and in turn you disappear or do you stay aggrod until you log back in? This can be potentially p bad if say the servers crash for several horus during a fleet fight and people can't be asked to stay at their computer screen for the several hours waiting to log back in.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1420 - 2011-10-11 19:47:59 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Hardly
No. Very really.
It doesn't particularly matter that you can counter them with other things — the best counter up until now has been N+1 SCs, because of their ability to go toe-to-toe with both the tanking and the damage output. This will no longer be the case.
Quote:
Here is a novel idea, introduce a new ship or rework the titan to be Super Cap killers.
It's not novel. It's the same deeply flawed “bigger is better” kind of thinking that has brought us to the necessity of this change. It shouldn't be the titan — it should be the Merlin.