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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Nabuch Sattva
The Green Cross
The Skeleton Crew
#1321 - 2011-10-11 16:35:21 UTC
ThaWolf wrote:
Maybe instead of nerving we should rather redo the Super-carrier as a whole, after reading this thread, i think they are not fitting in the game as they are, overpowered on one hand, mainly in larger groups, and close to useless if they get nerved that way, while the character is stuck in it.

So i came up with that:

New role, high end toy for all ppl who like to fly Caps, can do much but nothing Overpowered.

- Fighter Bombers will be pure Anti-Structure Weapons, bombing range 35km, anti Pos too, dmg should be like 2 Dreads

- Fighters stay like they are pre-nerv, the SCs should do Damage like 2 Carriers

- Drone bay gets nerved to 1 Bomber set 1 Fighter set and ~500m3 (yeah still normal Drones)

- SC cant use Remote repair mods, they should be only for Standard Carriers.

- ECM immunity stays

- remote ECM stays

- All SCs should be balanced to the defense Capabilities of a NYX (which i think is the most balanced EHP for SCs)

- balance production price of all SCs to the same amount

- SCs should be able to dock as a Compensation, and to make it possible that more ppl rely want to own them, so more can be killed


^^ ME LIKES!
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1322 - 2011-10-11 16:35:47 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Supercarriers were originally ships that were a modest increase over regular carriers and grotesquely priced as to be an end game ego ship. They were neat and something you pointed at "ooh look at that!" but not strategically important. Then they were improved dramatically and in doing so they became extremely popular, but also destabilizing. They evolved from being something that was a nice ego booster "Look at what we can make and field!" to something that was a critically important part of 0.0 warfare. Things reached a point where you simply could not compete on any appreciable level unless you fielded a large blob of these damn things and it is strangling the game. The rush to field supercaps fueled black market ISK dealing because people who used to show up and do things in dreads/carriers (battleships) no longer felt useful in the game and rushed to get a supercap by any means necessary.

This has been destructive to the game and the focus on supercaps being the end game content instead of one aspect of end game content had to be stopped. I believe these changes will make it so supercaps are still useful, but not the deciding factor in 0.0 combat. To be successful you must field a balanced fleet and if you can field a supercap fleet in addition to a balanced fleet you will be able to swing your super-dongs around just like you used to, but with a lot more caution.

And titans? They were garbage from the first iteration. They were a dumb idea, poorly implemented, and now they are still a dumb idea but slightly more killable. I would have loved to see some attention to titan gun tracking as well but this is a good first step towards bringing us back from a game where only the rich need apply.


Remove the damage from motherships and titans and let them keep their fighters/logistic role. You won't see them shoot structures anymore, they won't be the anti-capital anymore, and you have virtually got everything you needed.

All you guys have to do is reduce their damage output. Not do alot of side-lulul that has nothing to do with anything. HP, dronebays, etc, that's all irrelevant. Doomsday and FB's is relevant.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Phoenus
Doomheim
#1323 - 2011-10-11 16:35:55 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
iulixxi wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Carrier = Can launch standard drones
SUPERCarrier = Cant?
When you make a super version of something you generally try to not make it worse than its standard counterpart.


Hey … don’t get me wrong … You are giving the wrong arguments here. (At least in my humble opinion)

You started by pointing out the cost difference, obviously it was a wrong example. Now you are pinning on the name, on the same logic we could have assume a JUMPFreighter shold have a bigger cargo hold, well even if it’s 6 x times the price it has a cargo hold 1/3 (+/-) of the Freighter …

Try making an objective comparison between ships and most important ship classes / ship roles. Each ship in a specific class has advantages and disadvantages (also present across races). In your case: a carrier can field normal drones, but then again is more vulnerable because it lacks the EW immunity of SUPERCarriers … A carrier can fit a triage while a SUPERCarrier a remote ECM … and so on ... A carrier was design for support while a SUPERCarrier for killing carriers (capitals)/structures ...

E


How does any of what you said explain why they didn't chisel in a 25m3 drone bay on such a massive ship?



Nono Grath. They had a drone bay chiselled into such a massive ship. They just decided it was a really bad idea, and removed it.

CCP, in typical CCP fashion, release a dev blog a few days ago saying 'don't worry guys, we got this', and then release a new one proving that they have absolutely no idea what they are doing. :) :)
Evil Celeste
#1324 - 2011-10-11 16:36:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Hypothetically they could also accept that they should risk losing their ships as well.


Havent you heard? They paid 20b for their ship and they pay for another account, so they deserve to be unstoppable.
kralz
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1325 - 2011-10-11 16:37:04 UTC


Actualy you need about 34 bombs to kill a FB ... do your math

E
[/quote]


actually my friend, 6 well places well aimed bombs can take out a whole wing of FB and fighters, trust me, i have seen if from the stealth bomber chair and the nyx chair. it sucks to watch all 400 mil of my FB disappear
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1326 - 2011-10-11 16:37:47 UTC
Aurora Egnald wrote:
The whoe "Balancing" could be solved by keeping the supers ability to launch regualr drones and buffing dreads in ehp,resists, cap and reducing the cap/cpu of capital turrets on dreads therefore returning dreads to viable capital killer letting the dreads get back into the game more effectively. Instead of screwing the sc pilots at the behest of the poor and envious.

Sorry to disappoint you brosef, but I own an Erebus, Leviathan and Aeon. I build several supercaps a month for people. I'm neither poor, nor envious and I still want that drone bay nerf.

Every ship should have a weakness, and right now Supercarriers with swiss-army drone formations backed by titans do not. They counter everything.
iulixxi
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1327 - 2011-10-11 16:37:51 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

How does any of what you said explain why they didn't chisel in a 25m3 drone bay on such a massive ship?


Think of it as a small fish analogy:

Support-fleet is the smallest fish
The small fish (support-fleet) can be eaten by the bigger fish (carriers)
The bigger fish (carriers) can be eaten by a even bigger fish (Supper carriers)
Now … the bigger fish can’t swallow the small fish because it will choke and kill the bigger fish LolWhat?P

E
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1328 - 2011-10-11 16:38:29 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
While I agree with you, Isk is always a factor. This game has a Capitalist economy. Where there is Captialism, money is always a driving factor.


Isk is a factor to the player, and should not affect game balance. Look at when CCP tried to state "Titans are so expensive, we'll just see 2-3 of them in the game".

The same applies to the people posting in this thread suggesting motherships should cost four times a much. Guess what, players will still farm that isk and still buy them and still use them. The issue both with Titans and Motherships is not that their cost, it's that they are too useful so people actually field them. They should've been kept as logistic boats and/or with a fun endgame twists. The mothership had it's 20 drones. The titan has the jumpportal. Neither was gamebreaking, even tho the portal is quite damn powerful. It should've stopped there.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1329 - 2011-10-11 16:39:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Sure, the role of a battleship is to be used as primary or co-primary DPS in fleets while being supported by smaller ships. Yet they can still operate well solo against gangs of smaller ships and can form gangs of nothing but battleships to become extremely powerful as in the Smart bombing fleet i described before.
…and guess what? While powerful in terms of the DPS they can put out, they suck for those other roles (tackling in particular) and aren't particularly successful as single-type-fleets.
Quote:
When the first sentence of a post is wrong about the most basic mechanic of how a ship works and with all the post here to read, why exactly am I going to waste time reading any further ?
I'll say it again: maybe you should actually read what he wrote before you start assuming such things, especially if you try to correct him by saying the same thing he did…

Do you want to try again, or should I do the sentence analysis for you? You said the exact same thing he did, and then you proclaimed that based on what he said, he knows nothing about supercaps or basic mechanics. From this we can conclude that you don't know anything about supercaps or basic mechanics.

I must say, it's very brave of you to admit such things, but it kind of puts a damper on everything you've said so far in this thread…


Funny, I have 2 alts that fly Supers. How many do you have ? Not to mention that before you bash someone for apparently not understanding mechanics of this game you should look back at all your posts about how balance is destroying the usefulness of ships you probably can't fly in the first place.
iulixxi
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1330 - 2011-10-11 16:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: iulixxi
kralz wrote:
actually my friend, 6 well places well aimed bombs can take out a whole wing of FB and fighters, trust me, i have seen if from the stealth bomber chair and the nyx chair. it sucks to watch all 400 mil of my FB disappear


In a controlled environment ... perhaps (even if I seriously doubt that) but try to do that with 2K FB on grid ...

E
Lu Yuan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1331 - 2011-10-11 16:41:03 UTC
#373Posted: 2011.10.10 19:44 | Report
Like
2
Lu Yuan wrote:
Did you'z ever consider its not the supers or the capitals that need nerfed its all the rest of the ships ingame need a boost...,.. caus most r useless to some certain extent
No, because that just leads to power inflation and even more balance issues.

The problem is that (super)caps are too good.
The proper solution to that problem is to make them less good.
———
“If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.”
— Karath Piki

Well thats why they need to study each and all ships more to make sure they are living up to the job. there is already to many ships sitting on the shelf cause they have been nerfed and not used anymore shudnt do the same to supers

best things in this patch
the log off mechanics
the reduction in seige time

all the rest a farce....
Dr Djago
EnTech Technology
#1332 - 2011-10-11 16:41:29 UTC
I love the part with the logging off timer, get ready to see some massive record losses.
kralz
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1333 - 2011-10-11 16:45:12 UTC
iulixxi wrote:
kralz wrote:
actually my friend, 6 well places well aimed bombs can take out a whole wing of FB and fighters, trust me, i have seen if from the stealth bomber chair and the nyx chair. it sucks to watch all 400 mil of my FB disappear


In a controlled environment ... perhaps (even if I seriously doubt that) but try to do that with 2K FB on grid ...

E



no i understand, a good warrior is one who controls his environment, thats the quiet calm stealth FC...me....and he sets all his pilots up on their warp in warp out points, he then counts it down, they al de-cloak, launch at the SAME target, at the same time..all go off at the same time all on target. u will kill the drones....I.E...all drones around a ihub...beautiful. shoot at the ihub, all the drones will take the hit. or many of them. stealth bombing is very very much about piloting skill.
iulixxi
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1334 - 2011-10-11 16:47:57 UTC
kralz wrote:
no i understand, a good warrior is one who controls his environment, thats the quiet calm stealth FC...me....and he sets all his pilots up on their warp in warp out points, he then counts it down, they al de-cloak, launch at the SAME target, at the same time..all go off at the same time all on target. u will kill the drones....I.E...all drones around a ihub...beautiful. shoot at the ihub, all the drones will take the hit. or many of them. stealth bombing is very very much about piloting skill.


Out of curiosity what were those FB shooting since they were so groped that you netted such victory?

E
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#1335 - 2011-10-11 16:48:13 UTC
Quote:
Normally I don't say this, but damn, these tears are delicious.

You whiners realize that people flew moms even before they were buffed? People complained back then, but they still built them and put them into an alt, albeit motherships being useless crap.

Back then, there were two major reasons for supercap rebalance:
1. AOE doomsday was killing EVE
2. Titans were destroyed in under two minutes.

Both of these things did not relate to motherships at all. But CCP was nice and sort of introduced a new ship class, but completely overshot their goal and made motherships even matches for titans, despite them costing only a quarter of a titan.

The fact that EVE has 2-3k super pilots and even the poorest faggots fly them (I'd say 4 of 5 pilots could not easily replace their moms without alliance help) just shows how out of balance they are. It was obvious for over a year that they were due for a nerfbat, yet people still trained for them and are now crying that suddenly and totally surprising they're getting nerfed.

Tell you what. A mothership does not cost 20 bil, it costs 10 bil (k more like 12b after other costs). It is as strong as a ship with four times the material cost. It costs just 15 times more than a carrier, but does 8/10 times the DPS, has 20-30 times the tank. It costs 5 times more than a dread, but has 1.5 times the damage of a dread and 20-30 times the tank of one.
Plus it has invulnerability to any forms of EW but neuts, it can defend against any ship there is in this game.

If you're crying about your shiny values being devalued, ask them for actually balancing that value and give moms 7 times the EHP of a carrier with 8k DPS to reflect their 15-fold price. Fitting 2 bil worth of rigs, 3b worth of low slots, a 2b implant set and paying 5b over build cost is your own damn problem.

Mostly QFT from FHC, although the not docking **** is argued to be the justification for :derp:

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1336 - 2011-10-11 16:50:04 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Funny, I have 2 alts that fly Supers. How many do you have ? Not to mention that before you bash someone for apparently not understanding mechanics of this game you should look back at all your posts about how balance is destroying the usefulness of ships you probably can't fly in the first place.
I'm not bashing you — I'm just going by what you said.

Have you read it yet? Do you need help understanding where you went wrong? Do you get why you said that you know nothing about supercaps and basic mechanics? It was probably not your intent, but it is what you said…

Maybe if you weren't so rash in assuming what people said rather than actually reading and understanding what is said, you wouldn't make these kinds of mistakes. But cheer up — it's never too late to start.
Cpt Tunguska
Doomheim
#1337 - 2011-10-11 16:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Tunguska
This whole thing will be a hidden titan buff. I mean hitpoints of all ships are reduced by 20%, Dreads and Carriers dont get any HP changes.....but the DD remains at 3 million dmg/shot. This means its a huuuge DD buff.

The side with the biggest titan blob will still obliterate any hostile opposition. They would DD the hell out of hostile caps and supers....their guns will decimate the hostile support. The consequence is: The underdog cant use capitals and supercaps, as long as a overwhelming DD party waits for him. Buissness as usual, this patch wont change anything. Even a supercarrier will pop quckly to a couple DDs. Alliances with huge titanblobs will benefit from this patch.

I see youre buffing Dreads to be useful again, and to be a counter to supers. But as I said. As long as a dread dies in one second via DD, they wont do any dmg. Keep in mind that very high numbers of titans ....like 30+....are pretty much eve standard.

So if you want to create an useful patch:

- reduce DD damage to something logical...like 1 million.
- prohibit DD to be used vs. subs (done)
- nerf Titan XL weaponry, so they cant hit BS and BC (without nerfing dreads)
- nerf super HPs (already done)
- nerf logout (done)
- nerf logistic ships to get more dynamic subcap fights.

- make capitals to survive at least one DD with a good amount of remaining HP (look at point 1)
- dont totally defang supercarriers they already got 20% hp reduction.
- superarrier should at least be able to launch one full wing of bombers and fighters (fighter+bomber bay)
- create a dronebay which can carry a logical amount of drones: like 1 wing of heavies/sentries and couple of lights)

- Preseve Gallente as "drone race! To prohibit drones @ moros and nyx would just be another obligatory gallente nerf, coming
with ever y expansion, stop nerfing gallente !
- those dreads without drones are silly, ccp wtf do you even know your own game?
- if you really intend to prohibit drones @ SCs and reduce their Bombers/Fighters, plz dont call them Supercarrier anymore, rename it in SBU-removal-tool. They wont be a carrier anymore, since they cant carry even basic stuff.


Supercarriers just with one wing of bombers and 10 fighters would be the laughing stock of eve, they couldnt even fight off a hostile destroyer, while titans remain largely unchecked.....this will just lead into titanblob online. Good job ccp.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1338 - 2011-10-11 16:51:43 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Funny, I have 2 alts that fly Supers. How many do you have ? Not to mention that before you bash someone for apparently not understanding mechanics of this game you should look back at all your posts about how balance is destroying the usefulness of ships you probably can't fly in the first place.

He's mostly bashing you for not understanding basic sentence structure. But if you haven't spotted it in the last 2 pages with three people pointing it out, I doubt you will now.

Please, tell us more about how many supercaps you own and how that helps with your English reading comprehension!
kralz
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1339 - 2011-10-11 16:52:30 UTC
iulixxi wrote:
kralz wrote:
no i understand, a good warrior is one who controls his environment, thats the quiet calm stealth FC...me....and he sets all his pilots up on their warp in warp out points, he then counts it down, they al de-cloak, launch at the SAME target, at the same time..all go off at the same time all on target. u will kill the drones....I.E...all drones around a ihub...beautiful. shoot at the ihub, all the drones will take the hit. or many of them. stealth bombing is very very much about piloting skill.


Out of curiosity what were those FB shooting since they were so groped that you netted such victory?

E




yes many of them were as they were all on the ihub trying to blow it up. however little known fact is that the FB sig radius goes up HUGELY when a super pilot recalls them and the MWD turns on...

so my SB squad launched bombs, super cap pilots panic and recall fighters,MWD turns on, bombs travel 30km and detonate. in the path of the retreating FB wings and fire works take place. but 6 well placed bombs on the FB as the are shooting the target does very large damage to them. i am very sad when i see incomming bombs, thinking about all those damn letters i have to write to the families of my dead FB pilots. but i digress i do not call them back so as they donot increase their damage intake with MWD sig penatly. i have lost plenty of fighter bombers, fighters and drones to stealth bomber, the pilots in the SB just have to know what they are doing.
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1340 - 2011-10-11 16:57:01 UTC
Evil Celeste wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

Hypothetically they could also accept that they should risk losing their ships as well.


Havent you heard? They paid 20b for their ship and they pay for another account, so they deserve to be unstoppable.


SC should not be able to destroy BS fleet but they should be able to defend themselves against a fast roaming gank, at least able to get out and safe before the burning cyno Recon can land on grid. They should not be (and are not) solopawnmobiles. This change is a little bit too much, the first introduction of SC was way overpowered though, we can all agree on that for sure.

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW