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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1301 - 2011-10-11 16:23:19 UTC
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
I give up after this, you dont seem to either want to answer the question or you just dont understand.
I understand. Do you understand what the change does?
Quote:
More often than not when you DC you not able to do jack for a certian amount of time, until you either relog or have to reboot PC and then relog.
Does all of that take more than 15 minutes? If no, the change will make fuckall difference to you.


wouldnt take 15mins no, so after say disconnection from lagg it will take a good few minutes at least to reboot an relogg. Then will take some time to load grid aswell.By that time after this patch you could of been dropped 2-3 times, its for these eventuallitys im talking about.


If your connection is that poor that you disconnect in every engagement 2-3 times, you probably should consider offline games. Flying a super cap is not in the cards for you.

An unintentional disconnect may suck, but it cannot ever be distinguished server-side from an intentional disconnect. It just can't be done. Get over it. CCP may make brain-blunders now and then, but intentionally putting in a mechanic that can and will be abused is the stuff of ignorance or incompetence.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
iulixxi
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1302 - 2011-10-11 16:24:35 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Carrier = Can launch standard drones
SUPERCarrier = Cant?
When you make a super version of something you generally try to not make it worse than its standard counterpart.


Hey … don’t get me wrong … You are giving the wrong arguments here. (At least in my humble opinion)

You started by pointing out the cost difference, obviously it was a wrong example. Now you are pinning on the name, on the same logic we could have assume a JUMPFreighter shold have a bigger cargo hold, well even if it’s 6 x times the price it has a cargo hold 1/3 (+/-) of the Freighter …

Try making an objective comparison between ships and most important ship classes / ship roles. Each ship in a specific class has advantages and disadvantages (also present across races). In your case: a carrier can field normal drones, but then again is more vulnerable because it lacks the EW immunity of SUPERCarriers … A carrier can fit a triage while a SUPERCarrier a remote ECM … and so on ... A carrier was design for support while a SUPERCarrier for killing carriers (capitals)/structures ...

E
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#1303 - 2011-10-11 16:24:49 UTC
What people fail to understand is there are more DRF members / allies on the CSM than goons. oh wait..

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1304 - 2011-10-11 16:25:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Super Carriers do not jump through gates. At least know what your talking about before you start talking. I stopped reading after this because I assume you don't know anything about Supers.
Maybe you should actually read what he wrote before you start assuming such things, especially if you try to correct him by saying the same thing he did…


When the first sentence of a post is wrong about the most basic mechanic of how a ship works and with all the post here to read, why exactly am I going to waste time reading any further ?
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1305 - 2011-10-11 16:27:45 UTC
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
CCP are evidently Goon pets that could be ofc a big reason for this monumental **** up. Failness breeds more fail.


We get a cut of all subscriptions, true story.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Dirala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1306 - 2011-10-11 16:27:45 UTC
Pandi V wrote:


Example: Lets say Denmark suddenly decides it wants to be a great naval power and builds 5 brand new aircraft carriers but because of lack of funds and manpower it doesn't build any other ships to support them. In their first encounter with the Britsh fleet, which currently only has one aircraft carrier, they subsequently get their ass handed to them. Why? Because the smaller and much more numerous British vessels would just be able to sail right up to the aircraft carriers and pound them to bits, because there were no Danish ships to protect them.

Denmark was too small and weak a nation to properly field aircraft carriers, and were subsequently thrown back to highsec because they had no business playing with the big boys (Britain).



Strange comparism. But I'll just stick to it and argue the other way around.
Basicly, what you are saying here. If they don't have a support fleet, (which might happen when you need to move the ship or for whatever other reason not beeing in a sceduled Op) a single rowing Boat should be able to hold those shiny new toys of Denmark down, until Downtime?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1307 - 2011-10-11 16:27:50 UTC
iulixxi wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Carrier = Can launch standard drones
SUPERCarrier = Cant?
When you make a super version of something you generally try to not make it worse than its standard counterpart.


Hey … don’t get me wrong … You are giving the wrong arguments here. (At least in my humble opinion)

You started by pointing out the cost difference, obviously it was a wrong example. Now you are pinning on the name, on the same logic we could have assume a JUMPFreighter shold have a bigger cargo hold, well even if it’s 6 x times the price it has a cargo hold 1/3 (+/-) of the Freighter …

Try making an objective comparison between ships and most important ship classes / ship roles. Each ship in a specific class has advantages and disadvantages (also present across races). In your case: a carrier can field normal drones, but then again is more vulnerable because it lacks the EW immunity of SUPERCarriers … A carrier can fit a triage while a SUPERCarrier a remote ECM … and so on ... A carrier was design for support while a SUPERCarrier for killing carriers (capitals)/structures ...

E


How does any of what you said explain why they didn't chisel in a 25m3 drone bay on such a massive ship?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1308 - 2011-10-11 16:28:10 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
CCP are evidently Goon pets that could be ofc a big reason for this monumental **** up. Failness breeds more fail.


We get a cut of all subscriptions, true story.


lol
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1309 - 2011-10-11 16:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanth
iulixxi wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Already posted here twice, how I killed six Fighters for a Nyx while I was alone in a Nighthawk. Somehow I wish I had frapsed it, would've been awsome to post that as a counter-argument in this thread. It might be because I'm a super-pilot myself, but when you know how Fighters function you can easily kite them around and thus completely neglegt their damage output.

Since people are being stubborn and-/or stupid, I'll give a hint: they're slow and not very agile. If you have enough speed/maneuverability, especially combined with multiple on-grid bookmarks or objects to warp to, it's not even hard to "tank" 20 Fighters in a semi-decent BC. I reccon a BS would have alot more issues tho, unless a Machariel, you'd be too slow and not agile enough. But there's the rock/scissor/paper, and the TL;DR is that my solo BC-hull was tanking a Nyx' Fighters perfectly fine. Obviously I stayed out of neut/pointrange, I could not point him anyway so even less reason to do.



I agree with you on this on but you are missing a very important factor. Your example is 1 vs 1 scenario … I wild love to see how you are dogging 5 fighters with another 4.000 FB (200 SC) on grid … Have you tried it?

What happens to a lone super after the nerf? – Same thing that is happening now to a lone super: it dies. This changes dramatically when you scale the scenario …

My 2 cents ...
E


Then you bring a few bombers, just a handful will easily do.
Edit; Oh and I should add in that I'm not saying game should be balanced around 1v1. I'm just highlighting for stupid people who are whining their 40 subcaps die to a solo mothership (there's quite a few people whining about scenarious in here, and they want fighters nerfed based on that) is frankly - bad players. If one guy easily can dodge 20 fighters, and if two-three hics easily can rotate points to dodge ecm drones/fighters, ecm burst and neuts, then a proper subcap fleet need to get a clue rather than whining because they don't know how to play the game. P

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1310 - 2011-10-11 16:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Velin Dhal wrote:


When the first sentence of a post is wrong about the most basic mechanic of how a ship works and with all the post here to read, why exactly am I going to waste time reading any further ?


:cripes:

IM A VERY BUSY PERSON I DON'T HAVE TIME TO COMPREHEND THE POSTS I READ

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1311 - 2011-10-11 16:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Velin Dhal wrote:
Sure, the role of a battleship is to be used as primary or co-primary DPS in fleets while being supported by smaller ships. Yet they can still operate well solo against gangs of smaller ships and can form gangs of nothing but battleships to become extremely powerful as in the Smart bombing fleet i described before.
…and guess what? While powerful in terms of the DPS they can put out, they suck for those other roles (tackling in particular) and aren't particularly successful as single-type-fleets.
Quote:
When the first sentence of a post is wrong about the most basic mechanic of how a ship works and with all the post here to read, why exactly am I going to waste time reading any further ?
I'll say it again: maybe you should actually read what he wrote before you start assuming such things, especially if you try to correct him by saying the same thing he did…

Do you want to try again, or should I do the sentence analysis for you? You said the exact same thing he did, and then you proclaimed that based on what he said, he knows nothing about supercaps or basic mechanics. From this we can conclude that you don't know anything about supercaps or basic mechanics.

I must say, it's very brave of you to admit such things, but it kind of puts a damper on everything you've said so far in this thread…
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1312 - 2011-10-11 16:31:23 UTC
Rhaegor Stormborn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
[Yeah or he'll quit for... what is he up to now? the sixth time? The seventh?


Cry more noob.



You're producing all the tears I will ever need.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1313 - 2011-10-11 16:31:24 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Super Carriers do not jump through gates. At least know what your talking about before you start talking. I stopped reading after this because I assume you don't know anything about Supers.
Maybe you should actually read what he wrote before you start assuming such things, especially if you try to correct him by saying the same thing he did…


When the first sentence of a post is wrong about the most basic mechanic of how a ship works and with all the post here to read, why exactly am I going to waste time reading any further ?


Posting this again because it's hilarious.

Velin Dhal wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
Not only do Supercarriers not need to travel home alone through gates after a long fleet fight...


Super Carriers do not jump through gates. At least know what your talking about before you start talking. I stopped reading after this because I assume you don't know anything about Supers.
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#1314 - 2011-10-11 16:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anile8er
Many years ago, before many of the people whining about supercaps being to powerful started playing this game, CCP's CEO said EVE should be about choices. Clearly with the changes CCP is presenting for supercaps they are giving players a very limited array of choices: stay logged off, join a blob alliance so you can shoot only other cap ships and sov structures.

I think one idea that CCP should consider here is a choice option for supercarriers that doesn't take their teeth away against tacklers but forces them into a role.

Drone bay size. Scale it back to allow an SC pilot to fit a full flight of bombers OR fighters. Then give say 2000 m3 to 3000 m3 for smaller drones and let the player choose. This would diminish the giant alliance SC blob with endless sentries in bay, other than corp hangers i suppose. It would force SC pilots to pick a role, am I going to have bombers to kill a cap or fighters to down some faction BS with no support, but still allow them to have a small supply of ECM drones on a single HIC, warriors on a dictor, heavys / senties for a mission or sanctum.
kralz
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1315 - 2011-10-11 16:32:23 UTC
well if CCP Tallest is not gonna nerf out regular carriers i wont die. or emo rage quit. still is hitting super carriers really hard, i dunno alot of people provided some really good solutions on this thread that dont make supers a relic of a beter time in eve....super caps online is gay. i will grant that, but frankly this isnt the type or world where u would wanna bring a knife to a gun fight, its the kind of world where u wanna bring a super carrier to a knife fight, its not my fault u cant afford you, cant fly one, havent been playing long enough to even think about sitting in one.

titans, i like how they are utterly missing the titan nerf...why dont u nerf them with their epic gun tracking? it doesnt make sense to be able to be friendly ewared but cannot be enemy ewared. but what ever, the goons have a bunch of titans at their disposal, just need to thin out the super carrier ranks since PL definitely has superiority there huh.


next target is the tengu, its a vicious little animal. heavy missiles at a ROF of 3.5 seconds is a bit much, and they fly so fast with max skills. more like assault missiles huh, but they dont matter so much i guess since goons already came up with the solotion for that. goon maels VS PL tengus, witha good Goon FC will alpha the tengus...fix supplied. goons wins, the tengu does not need the nerf hammer. glad we solved that one.

dreads, CCP they are broke as broke can get. u might as well give up on fixing them, come out with dust 514 then i can use my moros to pound the hell out of planets...its the only reason i bought it in the 1st place.
Aurora Egnald
Doomheim
#1316 - 2011-10-11 16:32:44 UTC
The whoe "Balancing" could be solved by keeping the supers ability to launch regualr drones and buffing dreads in ehp,resists, cap and reducing the cap/cpu of capital turrets on dreads therefore returning dreads to viable capital killer letting the dreads get back into the game more effectively. Instead of screwing the sc pilots at the behest of the poor and envious.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1317 - 2011-10-11 16:33:25 UTC
Misanth wrote:
iulixxi wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Already posted here twice, how I killed six Fighters for a Nyx while I was alone in a Nighthawk. Somehow I wish I had frapsed it, would've been awsome to post that as a counter-argument in this thread. It might be because I'm a super-pilot myself, but when you know how Fighters function you can easily kite them around and thus completely neglegt their damage output.

Since people are being stubborn and-/or stupid, I'll give a hint: they're slow and not very agile. If you have enough speed/maneuverability, especially combined with multiple on-grid bookmarks or objects to warp to, it's not even hard to "tank" 20 Fighters in a semi-decent BC. I reccon a BS would have alot more issues tho, unless a Machariel, you'd be too slow and not agile enough. But there's the rock/scissor/paper, and the TL;DR is that my solo BC-hull was tanking a Nyx' Fighters perfectly fine. Obviously I stayed out of neut/pointrange, I could not point him anyway so even less reason to do.



I agree with you on this on but you are missing a very important factor. Your example is 1 vs 1 scenario … I wild love to see how you are dogging 5 fighters with another 4.000 FB (200 SC) on grid … Have you tried it?

What happens to a lone super after the nerf? – Same thing that is happening now to a lone super: it dies. This changes dramatically when you scale the scenario …

My 2 cents ...
E


Then you bright a few bombers, just a handful will easily do.
Edit; Oh and I should add in that I'm not saying game should be balanced around 1v1. I'm just highlighting for stupid people who are whining their 40 subcaps die to a solo mothership (there's quite a few people whining about scenarious in here, and they want fighters nerfed based on that) is frankly - bad players. If one guy easily can dodge 20 fighters, and if two-three hics easily can rotate points to dodge ecm drones/fighters, ecm burst and neuts, then a proper subcap fleet need to get a clue rather than whining because they don't know how to play the game. P


So the subcap guys should just "bright a few bombers" but it's too much to ask the supercap guys to do the same?

Should we infer that supercap pilots don't have any friends?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
iulixxi
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#1318 - 2011-10-11 16:33:38 UTC
Misanth wrote:
Then you bright a few bombers, just a handful will easily do.
Edit; Oh and I should add in that I'm not saying game should be balanced around 1v1. I'm just highlighting for stupid people who are whining their 40 subcaps die to a solo mothership (there's quite a few people whining about scenarious in here, and they want fighters nerfed based on that) is frankly - bad players. If one guy easily can dodge 20 fighters, and if two-three hics easily can rotate points to dodge ecm drones/fighters, ecm burst and neuts, then a proper subcap fleet need to get a clue rather than whining because they don't know how to play the game. P


Actualy you need about 34 bombs to kill a FB ... do your math

E
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1319 - 2011-10-11 16:34:25 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
Many years ago, before many of the people whining about supercaps being to powerful started playing this game, CCP's CEO said EVE should be about choices. Clearly with the changes CCP is presenting for supercaps they are giving players a very limited array of choices: stay logged off, join a blob alliance so you can shoot only other cap ships and sov structures.



Hypothetically they could also accept that they should risk losing their ships as well.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Evil Celeste
#1320 - 2011-10-11 16:34:51 UTC
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Supers/titans will NOT be used for out an out fleet fights, there will NOT be a balanced super cap fight at all. Supers/titans will only be used to counter hotdrop a lesser number of capital targets and bridge, that is all they are going to be affective for after patch. So that in no way balances a super class fight at all as CCP are intending.


Hard to understand for you, i know.

Even when droping on lower number of caps, they will have to consider bringing subcap support to take out any possible tacklers. Not just jump in, blob everything with various drones, jump out.

And that supercaps wont be used outside fleets, thats even better. No more 1337 soloing with nyx as backup or dding t3s and pirate bses with titan - and if **** hits the fan, just logoffski like a pro.