These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

First post First post First post
Author
George Holden
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1261 - 2011-10-11 15:57:29 UTC
YOUR TEARS ARE DELICIOUS

Anyway, I've went over 30 pages of this mighty threadnaught and I gonna try to sum it up for future reference. Note the "quotes" are mostly an interpretation of mine.

- OMGOMG ME SUPER CAN'T SOLOPWN WHOLE SUBCAPFLEETS ANYMORE HALP!

This literally came up every second post. Supercarriers from what I've heard from CCP so far are not supposed to be able to defend themselves against subcaps period. You have to have a support fleet with you or else you die.

Signature Resolution not Radius change to 400m means basically a fighter works like a battleship-sized gun which unless it can keep up trackingwise (eg. 0m/s transversal = Fighter on your tail while you're burning away) it will have a hard time hitting anything smaller than a battleship and due to low tracking (Omnidirectional Trackinglinks anyone?) it might even have a hard time hitting battleships as well.

From my narrow point of view capitals and supercapitals are there to tear down structures and support the "grunts" of the fleet with their firepower. Think of them as artillery and airsupport in the military they're not there to do the infantrymens work they're there to take out fortified positions, take out enemy artillery and aircraft where possible and take out that rifle platoon pinning you down?

You don't put your M109s without any support on the frontline because charlie is gonna tear them apart.

Anyway I'm having tears of joy myself and I've already harvested buckets full of tears in this thread.

Legendary Thread
Dirk Tungsten
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1262 - 2011-10-11 15:58:31 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
SERIOUSLY LETS PAY ATTENTION REALLY QUICK.


AN 900 MILLION ISK CARRIER CAN LAUNCH 10 WARRIOR 2'S TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A SABER






BUT



AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPER CARRIER CAN'T.


That sounds fair and balanced and normal to everybody here that makes this game?

To be very clear, I do not own a supercarrier, and do not care about them whatsoever, I'm just trying to make sure we're all working with the same amount of sanity.



"Sir I keep firing our planet destroying super weapon but I can't seem to hit that x-wing!"



ccp aka goons pets do not know what Eve wants evidently, ccp knows what goons & friends want. make a server for noobs & goons so they can have fun lagging themselves out in systems thinking there Pro,hell an let us keep this server an actually have a ballz deep enviroment. DD on only capitals is fine. But alot of choices in this patch are down right stupid. Garantee if this rubbish goes ahead, the end of eve will be near. Absolute state of emergency. You are ******* vets in the arse an we pay your damn bills. Insaine
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1263 - 2011-10-11 15:58:35 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
SERIOUSLY LETS PAY ATTENTION REALLY QUICK.


AN 900 MILLION ISK CARRIER CAN LAUNCH 10 WARRIOR 2'S TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A SABER






BUT



AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPER CARRIER CAN'T.


That sounds fair and balanced and normal to everybody here that makes this game?

To be very clear, I do not own a supercarrier, and do not care about them whatsoever, I'm just trying to make sure we're all working with the same amount of sanity.


By the same logic, let's buff tracking on maelstroms so they can shoot down the Rifter tackling them!
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1264 - 2011-10-11 15:59:15 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Carrier = Can launch standard drones

SUPERCarrier = Cant?


So what you're saying is CCP should change the name back to 'mothership' so there's no confusion.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1265 - 2011-10-11 16:00:19 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:


3) Electronic Attack Frigates. Yup you read that right.
This diminuitive vessel rarely seen outside of alliance tournaments and hilarious lossmails could use a bit more of a purpose in life. In the same way that HICs bypass the supercap immunity to tackling, EAFs should bypass their immunity to ewar.
The best part about this change is that it balances itself:
EAFs are already made of paper, which means that any supercap fleet with a supporting fleet of any description will be able to swat them down with ease. It provides a counter to the exponential remote-repping and tracking links of hundred-strong supercap fleets, especially when faced under a cynojammer. Plus of course it opens up an avenue for the Eve Newbie. Remember that guy? Well now he can be taking on the big boys in a few short weeks of training, helping to make a difference to that fight.


This is actually a good idea, even if i don't like your view on the drone bay (40 is too many, you should be able to defang a super so the 25 is cool with me, i just think its stupidity on a grand scale not to at least give them 75m3 of regular drones, even the crappiest BS have that)

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Dirk Tungsten
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1266 - 2011-10-11 16:01:01 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
Some random thoughts...

A blanket EHP nerf across the board is a little silly. The raw HP levels are already out of balance between supercaps of different races. Reducing everyone by the same amount means we miss out on an opportunity to correct that.

Solution? Adjust HP levels as follows:
Aeon -20%
Nyx -10%
Wyvern -15%
Hel - No change

Avatar, Erebus, Leviathan - No change
Ragnarok +10%

Supercarriers fighter bays are a little anemic. These ships are tricky and time-consuming to refit, so carrying a single flight of their only damage tool seems like a recipe for disaster.
Solution? Let them carry 30-40 fighters/bombers.

There isn't enough difference between Capitals and Super-Capitals. Carriers have a role as support and anti-subcap ships, as escorts for Supercarriers that are now unable to defend themselves with their own drones. After these changes Dreadnoughts will still be limited in use as they're still just as vulnerable to being one-shotted as before. If you have enough titans, there will be little reason to use Dreads.
Titans also remain overpowered versus subcaps. With tracking links, remote sensor boosters and enough supercarriers behind them, beating a titan blob simply comes down to having more titans. Beyond a certain threshold subcap numbers still do not matter.

Solution? Three actually:

1) Doomsdays balanced on sig radius - A blanket 'no DD on subcaps' rule seems a little anti-sandbox for me. If I want to burn half my isotopes picking off Rifters, why can't I?
Let's change Doomsday damage to scale on target sig radius. For example:

Dreadnought = ~1mil damage (with DD Op V)
Battleship = ~50k damage
Cruiser = 5k damage
Frigate = 1k damage

It will no longer destroy ships outright (unless they're nearly dead or terribly fitted) and makes Dreads more cost-efficient at taking on Titan fleets, increasing their role. This is also great to help smaller groups fight larger ones using their insured dreads.

2) Jump 'Calibration' - Supercaps should a delay in order to lock onto a player-activated cyno beacon. This time is based on the distance they are travelling, so while a 2ly jump might take five seconds, a jump to the full range could require 30 seconds to lock on. This has several effects. Firstly it means that supercaps planning a hotdrop need to be nearer the target, increasing the odds of them being spotted. It also increases the odds of the cyno and/or tackler being destroyed or jammed before support can arrive. Finally it gives regular capitals an increased role as 'rapid-response' capitals, able to move around faster than their larget counterparts.

3) Electronic Attack Frigates. Yup you read that right.
This diminuitive vessel rarely seen outside of alliance tournaments and hilarious lossmails could use a bit more of a purpose in life. In the same way that HICs bypass the supercap immunity to tackling, EAFs should bypass their immunity to ewar.
The best part about this change is that it balances itself:
EAFs are already made of paper, which means that any supercap fleet with a supporting fleet of any description will be able to swat them down with ease. It provides a counter to the exponential remote-repping and tracking links of hundred-strong supercap fleets, especially when faced under a cynojammer. Plus of course it opens up an avenue for the Eve Newbie. Remember that guy? Well now he can be taking on the big boys in a few short weeks of training, helping to make a difference to that fight.



At last a goon with something worth while to say.
David Grogan
NerdHerd
#1267 - 2011-10-11 16:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
a possible solution to supers and lack of drones is to limit the super's max bandwidth for regular drones to 5

move the fighters and bombers into a fighter bay and then have a small 125m3 drone bay for normal drones.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.

kralz
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#1268 - 2011-10-11 16:01:02 UTC
i really dont get it at this point, the avid hatred of capitals and super caps...do u hate them because u are too scared to fly one?
or because they are just oh so expensive and u are scared to loose them? or are u just determined to limit yourself to sub caps?
i mean if something is awesome it only makes sense to fly it. after devoting years and hundreds of dollars to perfect it, it really only seems fair to be reimbursed after its ruined. i never agreed to pay to play and train only to have my accomplishments destroyed after i had gotten it all.

i am really sorry you complainers do not have your own super caps to pwn with, but i have done plenty of pwning with out them, i am sorry you lot are too scared to give a thanatos a shot. its a pretty amazing ship. at least until the nerf it...some one said "defang" in reference to the "patch/nerf" heads chopped off would be better dreads will remain worthless, carriers will become less then worthless.


alot of FCs are currently cautious to deploy caps onto a battle field, as they are right now, risk to counter hot drops, titan bridges, what have you, with this nerf caps will be unable to fight sub caps. attacking FCs wont field caps at all, since they dont need them to remove a capital threat. and since they cannot be defended the defending FC wont bring them to the fight to begin with, moar arty abaddons...yay...this patch will render all caps worthless and they will not be seen on the field of battle pretty much ever.

all you people down with the black ops hot drops...i personally love to find that ratting carrier and light a covert cyno on his head...yay cap kill mail for me \o/ rawr....kiss that good by too. a thanatos and archon may be able to rat still with faction trgt painter, but the nid and the chimmy, being shield tankers are finished. the thannies tank will be greatly reduced any way because it looses so my cap recharge to fit the painters, either way, cap war far is good and dead. >wts fully fitted nyx :(<

after this patch, there will be a new method that is uber win, like gun tracking boosts to fighters or something fail like that, either way some other method will rise, some new uber way to "win eve" and all u whiny faggots will complain about it until CCP relents and nerfs that.

oh, my pod doesnt have enough resists, that needs to be upped i cant tank a rifter. please ccp fix pods. they should be able to defend against a frigate.

watch and mark my words, some new method that the people determined to win eve will discover and it will become the known way to fight in the nulsec.

but for the the 4 years i have personally wasted perfecting my capital skills its a shame. and for the wasted character sitting in my nyx that isnt worth the minerals i made it with. the billions of isk i have invested in carrier bpos to keep my alliance and fellow corp mates in the fight, i bet i wont be able to get half the isk i invested in them, i know i wont get the time spent researching them back.

CCP ur gutting alot of your older players, players with many accounts players with multi billion isk investments.
some people will say good riddance to us and slam the door as we leave, u want to populate nulsec with more pilots, this is not the way. not with these proposed changes. your gonna break more then ur gonna fix, please dont do this like this.
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#1269 - 2011-10-11 16:01:20 UTC
Evil Celeste wrote:
Anile8er wrote:

Wow, I can tell you fly supercaps.

Lets start with my active tank... oh wait supercaps are max EHP buff with no local reps becasue, 1: you would have to fit CCC rigs to run local reps which would nerf your EHP tank which would, 2: cause you to melt in a fleet fight.

Now lets talk about my cap recharge on a supercap... when supercaps got buffed one buff that didn't happen was cap amount / recharge. So in my passive EHP tanked Nyx I generate 64.1 cap per second with a cap base of 84,375.

So back to the small roaming gang, with a single dictor and a cyno ship on the way. Now I cant kill the dictor and Im not in a massive blob alliance that can just form up a support fleet and use 0.0 POS jump becons to get to me quickly. So here I am tackled with some nano ships that arent doing much to me other than the Curse or Pilgrim who probably has me neuted down pretty well by now and here comes the cyno ship, cause no one has supercaps or dreads in EVE am I right? So now here I am tackled by a single dictor, neuted out, and dying to a few super caps and dreads.

Pretty ******** if you ask me.


Why ffs you would warp/jump solo sc on small roaming gang?
...you desperately want your SOLOPWNMOBILE, dont you?



Maybe Im moving my supercap and they warped to my cyno, maybe im ganking a carrier on a pos. A 20 billion isk ship should have some defense against a 1 or 2 tacklers or a small unperpared gang.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1270 - 2011-10-11 16:01:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
No people train the accounts just to fly them because they are undockable and if own one your locked in it. Most people don't feel comfortable letting a Super Cap sit in a POS shield unattended where it can be bumped out.
So ask CCP to implement proper parking spaces for SC, where you can stow the ships without needing that valet character.


Your are apparently all about fitting ships into the "roles" they were meant to have and leaving them unable to do anything else but still leaving every other non capital with enough versatility to preform many different roles. I fail to see exactly where this makes since. Being able to dock a ship that becomes severely nerfed is not the way to fix the problem. It just a way for non super cap pilots to attempt to get what they want by throwing super cap pilots a bone.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1271 - 2011-10-11 16:02:11 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:


By the same logic, let's buff tracking on maelstroms so they can shoot down the Rifter tackling them!


No, its more like "Lets remove drone bays on BS so they need a support fleet to ward off interceptors"

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#1272 - 2011-10-11 16:04:01 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Misanth wrote:
EVE now is just a blob game with zero skill, zero return on investment, and zero incentitives to actually fight - and every incentitive to join the massive blob. It's everything this game wasn't, and the "dangerous" space, the skills/tactics element, the 'thinking out of the box' (to use shiptypes the ways they were NOT intended or assumed they would) has almost completely gone. These supercap changes, time dilation, etc, it's all just more blob incentitives.

And what's the cause of this? The SOV system. Fix the SOV system into a much, much more granular system, and make it so it's much easier to take and lose a system, along with a vastly upgraded reason to actually take a system, even for a short while, and you'll see these large empires shrink and smaller entities being able to get a foothold in 0.0, at least for a while.

If it's done right, a large alliance will be able to keep a bigger empire on the basis of them being able to field f.ex 5x100 fleets, able to defend 5 systems at once, instead of today's system where you don't really have to defend any system for almost a week before you chuck all 500 people (or more) into the system, along with supers.


I agree that Sov is a part of the issue. Upgraded systems, jumpbridges, for example. It just means everyone is cluttered up in a single very-profitable system, while having every means to move really fast. Other issues include moongoo distribution, the easy logistics (that is definately helping supercap production). The stupendous income from moongoo and sanctum farming helps increase the supercap population as well.

The irony is, nullsec would be so much better for combat and living if people actually did not want to own the space. And if every incentitive to upgrade systems would be removed.

But this is the capital changes thread, you're right it affects, so could be nice to mention it, but it's not what we're talking about here.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Evil Celeste
#1273 - 2011-10-11 16:04:41 UTC
Dirk Tungsten wrote:
Your still chatting absolute an utter nonscence. No1 is on about solopawnmobiles,adapting is all good an well, mostly super/titans are used with a subcap fleet anyway unless there fail. So maybe you have got your frieghter or Jump frieghter hotdropped 1 too many times, you being fail doesnt mean that the rest of eve an vets have to suffer for it.

You are wrong as usual, if there is subcap fleet fielded with friendly scs, then supercaps dont need to provide any defense vs subcaps by themselves.
That you want to soloblob small roaming gangs with supercarrier, because you have no skills to fight them with subcaps or god forbid, form a fleet and have decent fight with them, its sad thing.

But i know, how dare they to dusturb you while carebearing! They must be crushed! Preferably with 0 chance of fighting back, because you paid 20bil ship for ship.Roll
Dirk Tungsten
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1274 - 2011-10-11 16:05:01 UTC
kralz wrote:
i really dont get it at this point, the avid hatred of capitals and super caps...do u hate them because u are too scared to fly one?
or because they are just oh so expensive and u are scared to loose them? or are u just determined to limit yourself to sub caps?
i mean if something is awesome it only makes sense to fly it. after devoting years and hundreds of dollars to perfect it, it really only seems fair to be reimbursed after its ruined. i never agreed to pay to play and train only to have my accomplishments destroyed after i had gotten it all.

i am really sorry you complainers do not have your own super caps to pwn with, but i have done plenty of pwning with out them, i am sorry you lot are too scared to give a thanatos a shot. its a pretty amazing ship. at least until the nerf it...some one said "defang" in reference to the "patch/nerf" heads chopped off would be better dreads will remain worthless, carriers will become less then worthless.


alot of FCs are currently cautious to deploy caps onto a battle field, as they are right now, risk to counter hot drops, titan bridges, what have you, with this nerf caps will be unable to fight sub caps. attacking FCs wont field caps at all, since they dont need them to remove a capital threat. and since they cannot be defended the defending FC wont bring them to the fight to begin with, moar arty abaddons...yay...this patch will render all caps worthless and they will not be seen on the field of battle pretty much ever.

all you people down with the black ops hot drops...i personally love to find that ratting carrier and light a covert cyno on his head...yay cap kill mail for me \o/ rawr....kiss that good by too. a thanatos and archon may be able to rat still with faction trgt painter, but the nid and the chimmy, being shield tankers are finished. the thannies tank will be greatly reduced any way because it looses so my cap recharge to fit the painters, either way, cap war far is good and dead. >wts fully fitted nyx :(<

after this patch, there will be a new method that is uber win, like gun tracking boosts to fighters or something fail like that, either way some other method will rise, some new uber way to "win eve" and all u whiny faggots will complain about it until CCP relents and nerfs that.

oh, my pod doesnt have enough resists, that needs to be upped i cant tank a rifter. please ccp fix pods. they should be able to defend against a frigate.

watch and mark my words, some new method that the people determined to win eve will discover and it will become the known way to fight in the nulsec.

but for the the 4 years i have personally wasted perfecting my capital skills its a shame. and for the wasted character sitting in my nyx that isnt worth the minerals i made it with. the billions of isk i have invested in carrier bpos to keep my alliance and fellow corp mates in the fight, i bet i wont be able to get half the isk i invested in them, i know i wont get the time spent researching them back.

CCP ur gutting alot of your older players, players with many accounts players with multi billion isk investments.
some people will say good riddance to us and slam the door as we leave, u want to populate nulsec with more pilots, this is not the way. not with these proposed changes. your gonna break more then ur gonna fix, please dont do this like this.


True true. CCP develop EVE but evidently they should not have the resposibilty of making major decisions such as these. Confidence in ccp is hanging by a thread im afraid. If this patch goes ahead you will have a hell of a time trying to save themselves from this horriffic mess
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#1275 - 2011-10-11 16:05:08 UTC
Zomg Panties wrote:
Good job CCP on making a 15 billion dollar ship worth 500 mill, because a 10 man gang can now shut down a mothership in less than 2 minutes


Lets say the SC is a Nyx with 35m EHP (X type tank, T2 trimarks, slave set, no gang bonus

35.000.000/120 (seconds) =291.666,67 DPS required.
I am infact bad at EVE but for some reason this is an unlikely dps figure for a "10 man gang"
I'd even go as far as saying that even a 100 man gang wont have this much dps.
But if you want a realistic idea: 100 Hellcats at greatly glorified 800 dps per piece will need 437.5 Seconds to bring down an unbonused Nyx.
Aeon and Wyvern will take a lot more damage than that and even for the Nyx this would take more than 7 minutes.
Now if you managed to deploy your Nyx without any kind of support, or even other caps or supers, and you got caught by a gang that probably was reportet in intel for 15 minutes, I feel that all of us should be honoring comrade Darwin and you should let go and sacrifice your ship for that.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#1276 - 2011-10-11 16:05:57 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
SERIOUSLY LETS PAY ATTENTION REALLY QUICK.


AN 900 MILLION ISK CARRIER CAN LAUNCH 10 WARRIOR 2'S TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A SABER






BUT



AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPER CARRIER CAN'T.


That sounds fair and balanced and normal to everybody here that makes this game?

To be very clear, I do not own a supercarrier, and do not care about them whatsoever, I'm just trying to make sure we're all working with the same amount of sanity.


By the same logic, let's buff tracking on maelstroms so they can shoot down the Rifter tackling them!


My Maelstrom can kill the Rifter tackling me. Its called Tracking Enhancers and warrior IIs.
Bettoesai
THORN Syndicate
Northern Coalition.
#1277 - 2011-10-11 16:06:58 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
SERIOUSLY LETS PAY ATTENTION REALLY QUICK.


AN 900 MILLION ISK CARRIER CAN LAUNCH 10 WARRIOR 2'S TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM A SABER






BUT



AN 18 BILLION ISK SUPER CARRIER CAN'T.


That sounds fair and balanced and normal to everybody here that makes this game?

To be very clear, I do not own a supercarrier, and do not care about them whatsoever, I'm just trying to make sure we're all working with the same amount of sanity.



"Sir I keep firing our planet destroying super weapon but I can't seem to hit that x-wing!"



Tks for my new sig Vile!

"Sir I keep firing our planet destroying super weapon but I can't seem to hit that x-wing!"

Vile rat

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1278 - 2011-10-11 16:07:00 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Your are apparently all about fitting ships into the "roles" they were meant to have and leaving them unable to do anything else but still leaving every other non capital with enough versatility to preform many different roles.
Most of them have very clearly defined roles and suck if you try to stray to far outside them (except for the Domi).
Quote:
I fail to see exactly where this makes since.
Which part?
Quote:
Being able to dock a ship that becomes severely nerfed is not the way to fix the problem.
Sure it is. It means you can get your characters back and have them perform multiple roles instead of unbalancing the game by having the one ship they “have to” be in fill all the roles the players want to take on.
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1279 - 2011-10-11 16:07:12 UTC
CynoNet Two wrote:
By the same logic, let's buff tracking on maelstroms so they can shoot down the Rifter tackling them!


No, the Mael can launch small drones. Roll

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW

Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#1280 - 2011-10-11 16:07:33 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:


By the same logic, let's buff tracking on maelstroms so they can shoot down the Rifter tackling them!


No, its more like "Lets remove drone bays on BS so they need a support fleet to ward off interceptors"



Pls don't post never.