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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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iulixxi
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#881 - 2011-10-11 08:59:34 UTC
Amsterdam Conversations wrote:
iulixxi wrote:
Adapt or die people ... nerfs are needed to balance things around.

Also would love an official answer to this:
@CCP: Will the loss of 20% EHP also come with an adjustment to the respective supercarrier BPO's, thus make them use less components? As it happened with removal of the clone bay + a decrease in Capital Drone Bay requirements? (to be inline with the reduced drone bay)

Anyone?
E

Just curious, when they boosted them the first time, you didn't ask for them to cost 100b instead of 10b?


Where can I get a SC for 10b? Cheapest hull is 16.5b ... mins cost is, indeed, in the vicinity of 10b …
Requirements will have no impact on the ship cost any way … people will still want to buy them.

Remember on the first nerf they removed the Cap Cone Vat Bay requirements and added fighter bombers (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=696) … the price skyrocketed. How would you explain that? - it got a boost of course ... The ship was actually cheaper to build, but it had an advantage … FB.
Seth Darkness
Gang Bang You're Dead
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#882 - 2011-10-11 08:59:54 UTC
Is it me or with these changes people will start self-destructing they supers once they realize a fight cannot be won?

I've seen this happen a lot of time before. Changing the self destruct timer directly proportional with its mass would be a nice change.

120 sec is ok for a bs, but not for a cap.

What do you guys think?
Stealthiest
Dutch Trading Outpost
#883 - 2011-10-11 09:05:48 UTC
ok, So arguably a nerf to MS and Titans needed to come. It is personal opinion that you have not only nerfed them but you basically made them completely useless. A carrier that cannot use drones? Ships that will essentially never log off. Now I have 3 characters trapped for eternity in ships that I cannot use. Not that I cannot use them but will not use them due to the log off risk and the inability of them to defend themselves.

I cannot sell them due to the massively increased numbers of supers on the forums for sale.

So the only thing I can do really is rush to get them killed. Remove all the expensive mods and replace them with t2 and go get killed.

While I hoped for something that would balance the game and get people back into the fight, I fear that you have again relegated vetern eve players to the backbenches.

I wish I had not subbed in 1 year blocks on all my accounts.

Perhaps a csaa could be used to convert the titan back into it's component parts so they can be taken back to station, melted and turned into other more usefull ships.

I hope someone in Iceland has left the lights on. This is a death knell to the game imo.

I worked very hard for 7 years to get into the end game ships and now that I am in them I wish I wasn't.

No I won't give them to you so don't ask.
No I am not quitting the game yet.
I am hoping for a bit of sanity before implementation of Mitani's Final Solution.

20 percent off all HP's and dd's that cannot hit subcaps would and should have been more then enough.


Next I guess you guys will turn my BPO's into BPC's in the name of balancing.

Yeah I am whining a bit but tbh this is very over the top and a knee jerk reaction.

Fly safe.
Psymn
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#884 - 2011-10-11 09:07:27 UTC
I dont mind them self-destructing. I think that this should generate a mail though. The advantage of SD at that point would be that your nyx doesnt drop the best part of its deadspace tank.
iulixxi
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#885 - 2011-10-11 09:09:19 UTC  |  Edited by: iulixxi
malet wrote:
Psymn wrote:
Guys, your super caps are no longer solo pwn-wagons. If my baddon gets tackled by a dram theres nothing i can do about it either. Thats why i bring people who can.

I empathise with the folks complaining here that they will have to change their strategy. But any change that encourages inclusion of a wider range of ships in an engagement has to be a good change, right?


And does your abbadon cost 85billion isk? you are tackled by a ship of the same value, then thats fair game. If your in a titan your net dies and some random dictors finds you before you disaapear you are then stuck there being held by a ship that cost 30 million isk..

its hardly the same is it?


“And does your abbadon cost 85billion isk?”
An officer fitted one yes, does it have a change against your 85b titan? Same price, right?

“If your in a titan your net dies and some random dictors finds you before you disaapear you are then stuck there being held by a ship that cost 30 million isk..”
Get better net or don’t fly alone. CCP is not an ISP or an electricity provider, we are talking about balancing a ship class not preventing a natural disaster that cold (or cold not) disconnect you during an engagement.

Don’t fly anything you can’t afford to lose… Once you jumped into a fight you have to be aware that there is a chance of losing your ship, unlike now … you jump 200 supers -> launch fighters -> go watch a movie -> come back -> jump out. Win

E
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#886 - 2011-10-11 09:13:47 UTC
I never understood some ****** players why happy, when CCP changes to wrong direction something. Check weapon icons, 0.0 changes what need changes again because bad ideas.

Clap your hands buddies when capital nerf coming. :DDD

1. Supercarriers changes: The first problem is their too big damage output, but CCP nerfing their HP ???
2. Unuseable Dreads still unuseable. Who want bring dreads to fight, when 300-400 supercarrier blobs moving to kill them ?

3. Fighter nerf, made carriers unusable against sub-cap fleets, but CCP say, bring carriers against subfleets. LOL
We knew it always, they don't like drones and this is why they want to remove from caps. They got their chance to remove drones and say to player base, bring more man to fights instead of the drones, but everyone know that, if somebody bring more man he will bring more lag.
We know supcarriers problems is their damage output and they useable with blob without support, but CCP why need nerfing fighters ??? They want to nerfing carriers too with fighter changes ???

4. Titan nerf: Old supercarriers changes made titans unusable, titan pilots using them just for titanbridges, because too dangerous using them against supercap blobs.
But ccp idea more nerfing titans. LOL 3-4 supercarriers more useable than a single titan with same value. Who wanna use titans when too weak against SC hordes ?
Grab HD or dictor and catch a titan without danger, because drone removing. LOL
CCP read your backstories and chronicles from titans.

We know, need changes and rebalance but be smart and use brain and logic.

Supcarriers need damage nerf too for adding to chance to dread fleets.
Fighter changes will make carrier nerf not just for supcarrier. (Remove fighters from supers and not need fighter nerf, but CCP your idea will succes, because supers will need support.)
Need titan boost against supercarrier hordes and need scriptable DD.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#887 - 2011-10-11 09:16:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Pesadel0
As a proud owner of a Hel supercarrier can i get a pirate eye patch if a self destruct my ship?


By the wahy now that you are changing Supers and capitals is there a way you can boost the minmatar ones and caldari?Because they are a POS, and i'am not saying they are a player owned station either.
WisdomLikeSilence
BurgerkingTM
#888 - 2011-10-11 09:20:17 UTC
All changes welcome, in addition however, The Dreadnought is still not a viable ship.

Consider the difference between a Battleship and a cruiser. The battleship has Better tank and DPS, the cruiser - better speed and manoeverability.

In the similar matchup between Dreads and Supers, Supers have allt he advantages, Dreads have none. None at all.

Dreads need some advantage over Supers, and Im not sure what it should be. Perhaps simply being able to turn and burn a little faster would help. Or perhaps a further boost to their dps.
Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#889 - 2011-10-11 09:21:51 UTC
1800.00 each ? How many you want ?


lol... CCP yes it is a joke.


Malcanis wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
If you blind-cyno to a beacon to jump through a gate and there are hostiles on the other side, and those hostiles are able to aggress you before your enter your ewarp, you should be stuck in space. Period. This business of people jumping places and realizing they made a mistake, then just control-qing as long as you don't have a dictor bubble up is bull.



No no no you see I paid $1800 for my supercap therefore I should get a do-over when I make mistakes with it


(because I am ~elite~ you see)


(paying a lot of money for a ship is elite)


(I paid a lot of money for a ship so I should get special treatment, just in case that wasn't made clear)

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#890 - 2011-10-11 09:23:04 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
What? Do you have any idea how fast super caps die in fleet fights?

20 SC focused on my Nyx and I'm down in just under 4 minutes, thats with my hardners on and overheated.

100 man BS gang can down me in about 2 minutes after they neut me completely of any cap and turn off my hardners.


And your own fleetmates are drinking tea while the enemy fleet has you focused?




Quote:

This is the reality, for all those who cry about supercaps having "MASSIVE" EHP and being indestructable. All this talk about supercaps have 100MIL EHP! Really?

X-type buff tanks, T2 rigs, implants, not in gang, hardners on.

Hel - 25 million EHP
Wyvren - 32 million EHP
Nyx - 36 million EHP
Aeon - 56 million EHP

Hardners off (it takes 50 BS each with a neut under 60 seconds to drain a supercap to 0 cap)

Hel - 7 million EHP
Wyvren - 9 million EHP
Nyx - 15 million EHP
Aeon - 23 million EHP

Yeah 100 mil EHP super carriers with no weakness that just cant be killed by subcaps! right.....




The average pvp battleship has 150-200k EHP. Your Nyx would have enough HP to account for 150 of them.

If your Nyx doesn't have a support fleet, you deserve to lose it.

If the enemy let your support fleet alive to kill your Nyx, they will lose the fight.

If you lose your Nyx after your support fleet was destroyed, then it's working as intended.
Xue Slick
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#891 - 2011-10-11 09:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Xue Slick
Xue Slick wrote:
Simple solution... want less super capitals on the field... make them 4 times as expensive so there is less of them?

CCP, you have made it so easy to make ISK that any Joe can get one now.

Easy changes:

- Double the bandwidth required for fighter bombers. So a super carrier can only launch 10. Other drones remain unaffected. Half the DPS and helps with system lag.
- Reduce Super Carrier and Titans EHP by 20%
- Increase Dreads and Carriers EHP by 20% ( Will solve your DD problem )
- Reduce the Siege cycle to 5 minutes
- Remove the Drone bays as stated and buff damage to Dreads
- Rework the cost of Super Capitals so less people can get into them. 2x, maybe 3x the price?

Do it CCP.


I still stand by it, the above is what CCP should do. Give Logistics some immunity to the DD if they are such a problem.
Nomad I
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#892 - 2011-10-11 09:25:22 UTC

  1. Give a malus to SC for the signature of fighter instead of blowing up the signature, so that you don't nerf carriers
  2. Give some of the dreads more cap so that they can use the dps.
  3. Give the dreads so much tracking, that they are able to shoot moving carriers.
Forlorn Wongraven
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#893 - 2011-10-11 09:25:34 UTC
Last time when supercap changes were tested we got all our toons with all levels at 5 and supercaps as redeemable item. Please do again so we can actually test it without knowing somebody to hand over a titan on Sisi.

Winner ATXI , 3rd place ATXII, winner ATXIII, 2nd ATXIV - follow me on twitter: @ForlornW
Kompostor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#894 - 2011-10-11 09:25:58 UTC
Pesadel0 wrote:
As a proud owner of a Hel supercarrier can i get a pirate eye patch if a self destruct my ship?


That´s an idea I like! Big smile

Or even better - seen that most supercarrier pilots spent a freaking long time making isk to pay for the ships and are now quite unhappy with them: Why not increase the insurance for a few days and let us selfdestruct our ships?
Get´s the massive supercarrier blobs out of the way and will calm us hardcore players down. Yeah, I know: "Inflation, inflation" but we did sink a lot of time into them.
iwasatoad
The Lost Disciple's
#895 - 2011-10-11 09:37:26 UTC
Ok this is the final straw i will be renouncing my eve charters and quit playing because ccp is now giving into even the smallest Winer's

Reason in point

Super carrirers Since day 1 my hole gole was to get into a mom get into 0.0 use the mom to make isk with as well has go out and defend space with.......

Now isk mkaing in 0.0 will be worthless if you cannot use a carrirer as i can make more in high sec running missions back to back in a nightmare

all because some one did not like the fact that some one had to grind there way up to sitting in a big ship that duh has the power to take on overwelming numbers or great deal's of time to kill


Argument point's

1 super carriers are to hard to kill..... I can link you over 20 video's of them dying in less than 15 min's so dont even try to say there to hard to kill

2 because of there vast drone bay theay have what seem's to be an unlimited supply of regular drones to kill sub cap's with... um duh what did you think carrier stood for a big shiney ship that does no damage to targets smaller than it because it would be to much reality to think that some one would put normal drones on it in case say owww i dono a little ship came at it... Get real if CCP goes through with this i could kill a mom by my self in a ammar e-war frig nute it down eventually and slowely kill it because hay it cant do any damage at all to me.. WTF


3. it should be immune to e-war as such it has such vast room to have plenty of back up systems for in case 1 goes down wonder where that idea came from .....


So in conclusion MoM's nurffed so that now you haf to fit 4 billion isk faction BS's to make more isk in 0.0 than high sec at 90 percent more risk of getting dropped on because no one is scared to come into a system beacuse all capitals are nurfed from what theay were ment to do ....

0.0 jump bridges were nerfed because it was to easy for people to move around in massive fleet's so now only 1 jump bridge per system <----- could of just reduced the ammount the jump bridge hold's so that i dont know a freighter would haf to come along to move a fleet 50 BS's verry far....

ok so while we are at it ccp here i would like to be a winer as well can u help here's my story


I cant make 30 bill isk a month in high sec because rat's are to hard to kill and bounties arnt high enougfh so i can't afford to PVP..... NOT but could you jump the bounties by about 300M isk day this update is released you will see alot of players start to drop as carrir's and mom's were main ship to use to make isk in 0.0 by killing rat's and it was riskey because you could get dropped on and pointed or bubbled slow speed and such. now you taking that factor out and making bs's that can mwd fit and just run away or warp off in a moments notice more usful ship than a dread carrir titan or mom....

yep release every thing u posted and see how menny peopple quit playing that have grinded to get where theay are or to get what theay want to just to be told oww we gave into reality
Ramman K'arojic
Lone Star Warriors
Brave Collective
#896 - 2011-10-11 09:41:31 UTC
CCP: Love your intent;
CCP: You will probably fail.

You have provided no insentive for anybody to bring CAP to a fight; unless they bring 1 first; which they have no incentive to do so.

You need to allow someway to permit CAPS and SUB-CAPS to interact. Wether it fighters on Carries only; where they can not easly shoot small fast ships but could kill a BS with a little effort.

Otherwise you will kill the butterfly before it takes off Cool
Ciryath Al'Darion
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
#897 - 2011-10-11 09:46:40 UTC
Ramman K'arojic wrote:
allow someway to permit CAPS and SUB-CAPS to interact. Wether it fighters on Carries only; where they can not easly shoot small fast ships but could kill a BS with a little effort.





Count the capitals on both side, if the other has more than the other, dont field capitals.

Side A wont field capitals since they'd die.
Side B wont field capitals since you can't do anything with them as opponent is not bringing them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#898 - 2011-10-11 09:47:50 UTC
iwasatoad wrote:
Ok this is the final straw i will be renouncing my eve charters and quit playing because ccp is now giving into even the smallest Winer's
The smallest winer's what?
And what does grape farmers have to do with EVE?

Or are you saying that they're giving in to the smallest whiners? Weeell… we'll see if they give in to you or not (and I'm being kind here and assuming that by “smallest” you mean “fewest“ so we don't have to make quips about your size).
Quote:
I can link you over 20 video's of them dying in less than 15 min's so dont even try to say there to hard to kill
Why would you want to provide that kind of proof when you're trying to argue the opposite?
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#899 - 2011-10-11 09:52:51 UTC
iulixxi wrote:

Where can I get a SC for 10b? Cheapest hull is 16.5b ... mins cost is, indeed, in the vicinity of 10b …
Requirements will have no impact on the ship cost any way … people will still want to buy them.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArVlisPcgSHddGFZRGtwZ3YyT3dSUDB2YmJvQ053a2c&amp;authkey=CKSKi7sL#gid=23

I even build for blues (but not for you, just because).
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#900 - 2011-10-11 09:53:28 UTC
Pilk wrote:
xxxak wrote:
So with this nerf, supers can no longer defend themselves from subcaps, and supers are committed for 23 hours once they cyno in.

That means that if you have a 15 man super fleet (mid size alliance), plus 120 sub caps (mid size alliance), and if lose the subcap battle, you also just lost all your supers.

Kthxbai. No way a sane super pilot will commit now unless they are 150% sure that they have a winning fleet.

We often enjoy comparing EVE SCs to the real-life ones. In this scenario, you're telling me that my USS Enterprise cannot do anything to stop some dude standing on the deck of a tugboat, vigorously slapping her across the bow with a piece of fresh mozzarella, from sinking her.

I think the Enterprise's captain, if faced with a similar scenario and if saddled with a bunch of planes that for some reason cannot hit the tugboat, would climb down from the tower himself in order to shoot the tugboat captain in the face. I mean, honestly, what is your goal here? If you want to reduce the number of fights that happen in EVE, this is a great way to do it. The probability of me wanting to go into a battle we might not win just dropped to zero; at least before, I might be able to work with my fellow supers and clear off the tacklers to get more people home safely. Now I'm just committing a 20B ISK bullet-sponge.

Fix the logoff timer, fine. Limit the number of drones of a given type--a little crazy, but okay. But being unable to even hit subcaps? Why am I not just flying a dread, then?

One last note: it was already a PitA that you didn't give us room to carry a full flight of both FBs and fighters, along with even a single additional light drone, in any SC but the Nyx. Now that the supposed reason for that decision is gone, we're further restricted to only carrying less than a flight-and-a-half of ONE type of drone? Before you say we can swap out at will, try it. Move 125,000 m3 out to a supercarrier in a POS and back for me. Let me know how enjoyable that is, let alone doing it for a fleet of 20 supers that are deployed in hostile territory, ten jumps from the nearest friendly station.

Then again, given these changes, I suppose there won't be hostile territory, let alone supercaps therein, pretty soon.

--P


Also ITT:

Whinging nullbear SC pilots who are basing their complaints around the assumptions that all of EVE revolves around them, and sov-warfare, and seriously believing that the rest of us give two fucks.

Keep the tears coming, you poor, deluded, blinkered little princesses:

They keep my HM/Nano-Drake's windscreen looking like new!

Ni.