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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#861 - 2011-10-11 08:22:12 UTC
Leon Razor wrote:
Well 16 hours and 42 pages later it's nice to see the community arguing (constructively?) over a FiS feature this time. I know something like this has been said at least once here, but I think they need to hear it again just in case they haven't gotten it yet.

CCP:

  1. Read this entire thread, there are reasonable suggestions here from both sides
  2. Make some adjustments
  3. Make another blog about it
  4. Read another 40+ page thread
  5. Maybe repeat this process a few times
  6. Then post a final list of balance changes well before the patch day
  7. Be prepared to make adjustments before the next big expansion

If you are really serious about listening to your player base and regaining their trust, you are going to need lots of two way communication. I know you gather a lot of info before deciding on changes like these, but you need to continue that process up to and after release. Most people feel like balance changes are simple database value updates that are easy to do, so since it's relatively quick to implement them, spend the extra time talking and listening to us, and don't wait 18 months to react.

Aside from the harsh vs effective (SC vs blob) arguments, a general issue people on both sides seem to have with these changes is that they are too flat, e.g.

  • Overall HP -20% VS a variable HP nerf that considers the unique properties of each ship
  • Removing all drones VS something like a smaller drone bay for non-fighters (like you did with the separate fuel cargo bays)


Agreed
Psymn
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#862 - 2011-10-11 08:22:49 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
Titans ought to be the ultimate mobile command platform. They should be the critical center of a large fleet. More than a bridge and a giant cannon, give them the role of as a sort of super command ship. An area of effect bonus to allied ships that are on grid with them. Also I'd like to see Doomsday removed entirely and replaced with something more useful and tricky than "big gun go boom." What if the Leviathan could field a massively powerful ECM burst? Or the Avatar had a pulse to sap a fleet's capacitors 50%? Some sort of powerful effect that could, when used at the right time, change the tide of battle.


Titans already do give racial boosts to their fleet.
Silence iKillYouu
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#863 - 2011-10-11 08:23:52 UTC
WOW look at all the nyx's and other SC's for sale.

Titans cost 90bill on public forums atm. why shouldn't they be as good as they are?

EVE Mail me i dont check forums often.
Ciryath Al'Darion
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
#864 - 2011-10-11 08:24:01 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
I don't fly caps nor do I really want to anytime soon, but one thing that irks me about the changes is the general lack of creativity.


You have to remember you are talking about company that used atleast 1 year of active development for a feature and after having it basically ready, realized that there is no content to for a game.

Lack of creativity indeed.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#865 - 2011-10-11 08:26:26 UTC
Kabaos wrote:
You are crazy?Big smile

Mothership without small,medium and large drones.. Yes , eve goes down..



No, your EVE goes down.

And this is a good thing.

Ni.
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#866 - 2011-10-11 08:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jada Maroo
Psymn wrote:


Titans already do give racial boosts to their fleet.



Wow, that was quick! Big smile

Oops

I totally overlooked that boost. Oh well, like I said, I don't fly them.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#867 - 2011-10-11 08:29:00 UTC
Silence iKillYouu wrote:
Titans cost 90bill on public forums atm. why shouldn't they be as good as they are?
Because cost is not a balancing factor and not a justification for imbalance.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#868 - 2011-10-11 08:36:36 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
this change will bring back sov warefare.

The part which i like most is that without a decent support fleet your SC will be useless.
No super Plexing, No Super Hot dropping noobs (You need small **** for that).
I am highly pleased!

Once you will make sov warefare like

Super can not kill sub supers
+
Only supers can shoot stations
+
No damn claim units etc.

This might bring some nice sov warefare back to eve.
Kompostor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#869 - 2011-10-11 08:36:56 UTC
All in all I like those changes a lot, good job, CCP.

However the supercarrier nerf seems a bit too harsh. I do enjoy ratting in my Nyx and like to use use it in non-blob situations too. I really don´t see the harm in letting the supercarriers keep at least a small drone bay to counter a random solo Onyx pilot.
I´m still a big, juicy target and it would be easy for a small gang to kill my drones. And it did take me a long, long time to make the billions to pay for the ship and the extra pilot. Shouldn´t I have the upper hand over a solo subcap?
Sigras
Conglomo
#870 - 2011-10-11 08:37:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Silence iKillYouu wrote:
Titans cost 90bill on public forums atm. why shouldn't they be as good as they are?
Because cost is not a balancing factor and not a justification for imbalance.

My only regret is that I have but one like to give . . .

How many times do we need to say it? more expensive != more powerful

Nobody would design a game like that, if they did everyone would only go for the biggest most expensive, most powerful ship . . . oh wait . . . Roll

This is why in strategy games (at least good ones) the basic units are not useless when the game gets going.
Tish Magev
Pyke Syndicate
Solyaris Chtonium
#871 - 2011-10-11 08:40:24 UTC
Quote:
Fighters - Right idea, but wrong way to implement it. All this will do is make regular carriers that much less valuable in fleet fights. If a fighter can't hit a sub cap then wth is it supposed to hit?? Simply reduce the number of fighters supers can deploy and problem is solved.


This tbh, the nerf to how many FIghters super carriers can deploy is already there with the drone bay nerf. Supers are pretty much going to have a full flight of fighter bombers in it's bay, the rest if needed could be filled with fighters.

So assume the nerf to fighters doesn't happen then the Nyx and Hel get a 50% dps reduction against subcaps (when using fighters, FBers don't do **** to subcaps and with the drone bay nerf they can't field sentries which is the bigger threat to subcap fleets). The Aeon and Wyvern get a 75% reduction in DPS against subcap fleets.

Now that's a pretty big reduction in DPS, given that most super carrier fleets consist of Nyxs (Nyx? Nyxi?) and Aeons the total super carrier fleet DPS reduction is probably around 60-66% against subcaps.

If the super have a full bay of fighters ready for a subcap fight then they make themselves vulnerable to a super cap hotdrop.

With all the changes planned imo the fighter nerf just isn't needed, drop the fighter nerf and you'll be a lot closer to a more balanced nerf and getting the desired effect.
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#872 - 2011-10-11 08:41:11 UTC
Shadowsword wrote:
Anile8er wrote:
I can afford to loose my Nyx... thats why i use it. It's more that CCP is making my Nyx useless other than killing caps, and more so useless to me because I am not in a giant blob alliance, and I cant change into another ship.


You can still dps structures as fast as 15 players in battleships, same against other capitals, and can absorb as much damage as 100 battleships. If an enemy fleet of your size and composition choose to focus you first, your sacrifice win the fleet battle.



What? Do you have any idea how fast super caps die in fleet fights?

20 SC focused on my Nyx and I'm down in just under 4 minutes, thats with my hardners on and overheated.

100 man BS gang can down me in about 2 minutes after they neut me completely of any cap and turn off my hardners.


This is the reality, for all those who cry about supercaps having "MASSIVE" EHP and being indestructable. All this talk about supercaps have 100MIL EHP! Really?

X-type buff tanks, T2 rigs, implants, not in gang, hardners on.

Hel - 25 million EHP
Wyvren - 32 million EHP
Nyx - 36 million EHP
Aeon - 56 million EHP

Hardners off (it takes 50 BS each with a neut under 60 seconds to drain a supercap to 0 cap)

Hel - 7 million EHP
Wyvren - 9 million EHP
Nyx - 15 million EHP
Aeon - 23 million EHP

Yeah 100 mil EHP super carriers with no weakness that just cant be killed by subcaps! right.....

Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#873 - 2011-10-11 08:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Fiberton
You are missing the part where CCP needs people who unsubbed to resub. They would have done a risk assessment ( I hope ) after scribbling this LOL DEV player bull down on their handy fast food joint napkin. The risk assessment would be unsub vs sub.
How many unsubbed when the north was lost ? How many unsubbed when they decided we needed fancy clothes ? THOUSANDS apone THOUSANDS. They will not tell you the number. Perception of instability creates more instability. Organizational concepts you have learned in EVE are real world concepts. They understand this very well my friends. Screw long term players we need more subs.



Feydryn wrote:
This is one of THE worst balancing decisions I've ever seen in a games life cycle.

You have completely removed the counter-balance to "blob" warfare in one fell stroke.

On top of that, you've made these ships worth multiple billions of isk not worth flying at all. CCP, you have truly regressed backwards on this.

I'm fairly disgusted with your thinking process in this regard.

Yet again, you've shown favor to those that can field the most ships without any regard for the people who have spent their entire careers in-game working towards capitals and super capitals.

I can see myself easily cancelling 6 of my 7 accounts, as they are supremely and utterly useless.

Way to stick it to your veteran players CCP.

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#874 - 2011-10-11 08:51:10 UTC
Ale Tricio wrote:
Again CCP just hoping to hold onto their new pubbie players by screwing those that have spent years earning their supercaps

-3 accounts


^^Let's hope this is only the beginning of some badly-needed/long-past-due herd-cuilling.

Bye! Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

Ni.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#875 - 2011-10-11 08:51:21 UTC
Fiberton wrote:
You are missing the part where CCP needs people who unsubbed to resub. They would have done a risk assessment ( I hope ) after scribbling this LOL DEV player bull down on their handy mc donalds napkin.


This theory is obviously spurious; McDonalds is not a thing in Iceland.


The more you know!
Sigras
Conglomo
#876 - 2011-10-11 08:52:55 UTC
Feydryn wrote:
This is one of THE worst balancing decisions I've ever seen in a games life cycle.

You have completely removed the counter-balance to "blob" warfare in one fell stroke.

On top of that, you've made these ships worth multiple billions of isk not worth flying at all. CCP, you have truly regressed backwards on this.

I'm fairly disgusted with your thinking process in this regard.

Yet again, you've shown favor to those that can field the most ships without any regard for the people who have spent their entire careers in-game working towards capitals and super capitals.

I can see myself easily cancelling 6 of my 7 accounts, as they are supremely and utterly useless.

Way to stick it to your veteran players CCP.

I hate to be rude but hopefully you dont resubscribe so you can save us all from having to deal with your stupidity

How on earth are supercaps the counter to blob warfare? if anything they were a CAUSE of blob warfare because THEY were what people blobbed!

youre upset because your supercaps now have a role, before they had every role and whoever had the most won.
Captain Evil
Tech 3 Constructions
#877 - 2011-10-11 08:53:02 UTC
Quote:

Reduce drone capacity.
◦ Aeon, Revenant and Wyvern: 125000 (25 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers)
◦ Hel and Nyx: 150000 (30 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers)


I wold like to add a Fighter Bay like the ones in the Dev blog and a Drone Bay for all the rest like 375 m3. so thay can have some but not a lot.

I like the "Logoff timer" the Dreadnoughts in Wormholes will not get a way this time.
Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#878 - 2011-10-11 08:53:02 UTC
Thank you CCP for listening and responding in kind.

0.0 large scale PVP will finaly open up a bit again.

(only sad thing is i wont be able to rat in carrier effectively:S)

Still GJ and keep moar balance changes comming!
Psymn
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#879 - 2011-10-11 08:57:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Psymn
Current Situation:

Cruiser tackled - LIGHT CYNO DROP SUPERS!
BC tackled - LIGHT CYNO DROP SUPERS!
BS tackled - LIGHT CYNO DROP SUPERS!
Triage on field - LIGHT CYNO DROP SUPERS!
Supers on field - LIGHT CYNO DROP MORE SUPERS!

After patch:

Cruiser tackled - burn it down with your sub caps
BC tackled - burn it down with your sub caps
BS tackled - burn it down with your sub caps
Triage on field - try to neut it, drop your own triage or LIGHT CYNO DROP SUPERS!
Supers on field - scramble the dictors and get more neuts or LIGHT CYNO DROP MORE SUPERS!

Seems like options are opening up which can only be a good thing imo.

Gotta be a shame for raiden and PL though. The two places where all the super caps congregate to protect themselves in numbers will have to think of somehting else. Im sure PL will bounce back, lets put it that way ;)
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#880 - 2011-10-11 08:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
I never understood some ****** players why happy, when CCP changes to wrong direction something. Check weapon icons, 0.0 changes what need changes again because bad ideas.

Clap your hands buddies when capital nerf coming. :DDD

1. Supercarriers changes: The first problem is their too big damage output, but CCP nerfing their HP ???
2. Unuseable Dreads still unuseable. Who want bring dreads to fight, when 300-400 supercarrier blobs moving to kill them ?

3. Fighter nerf, made carriers unusable against sub-cap fleets, but CCP say, bring carriers against subfleets. LOL
We knew it always, they don't like drones and this is why they want to remove from caps. They got their chance to remove drones and say to player base, bring more man to fights instead of the drones, but everyone know that, if somebody bring more man he will bring more lag.
We know supcarriers problems is their damage output and they useable with blob without support, but CCP why need nerfing fighters ??? They want to nerfing carriers too with fighter changes ???

4. Titan nerf: Old supercarriers changes made titans unusable, titan pilots using them just for titanbridges, because too dangerous using them against supercap blobs.
But ccp idea more nerfing titans. LOL 3-4 supercarriers more useable than a single titan with same value. Who wanna use titans when too weak against SC hordes ?
Grab HD or dictor and catch a titan without danger, because drone removing. LOL
CCP read your backstories and chronicles from titans.

We know, need changes and rebalance but be smart and use brain and logic.

Supcarriers need damage nerf too for adding to chance to dread fleets.
Fighter changes will make carrier nerf not just for supcarrier. (Remove fighters from supers and not need fighter nerf, but CCP your idea will succes, because supers will need support.)
Need titan boost against supercarrier hordes and need scriptable DD.