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New dev blog: Capital ship balancing

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Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#841 - 2011-10-11 08:01:38 UTC
I too feel like I have been playing a Beta since 2004.


Dr 0wnage wrote:
You guys are on the right track, but are missing a few things here...

Super HP nerf - Reducing 20% across the board is the WRONG way to go about this! Please look at the ships individually! As it is currently the Aeon has nearly 3x the ehp of the Hel, and more then some of the titans. That imbalance will not change with a generic HP reduction. Fixing the logoff mechanic will solve much of the "theyre too hard to kill" problem. Go for a balance, not a straight up nerf!

Fighters - Right idea, but wrong way to implement it. All this will do is make regular carriers that much less valuable in fleet fights. If a fighter can't hit a sub cap then wth is it supposed to hit?? Simply reduce the number of fighters supers can deploy and problem is solved.

Dreadnoughts - These ships are currently combat ineffective. There are no changes here that will change that. The 5 minute siege timer will help them avoid getting dropped by supers easier, but that in no way changes their effectiveness in a fleet fight. Dreads need their HP doubled (with an increase in production cost) and need a damage bonus to specifically supercaps. A general damage increase will not work as it will make them more effective against sub-caps and other dreads / carriers.

Titans - Can we say turret tracking anyone??

All in all its definitely a step in the right direction. One thing we all should consider is why do so many super pilots bring their ship to a fight? Well they can't swap to a smaller ship very easily now can they?? ;-) Is it time yet for docking rights?

More wonderful ideas on doc's super balance thread here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=13411

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"
Sigras
Conglomo
#842 - 2011-10-11 08:03:30 UTC
why is everyone whining about how much the supercaps cost? The whole point of counters in a game like this are that more expensive != more powerful and it never should!

If that ever happens, the richest will always win, and that should not be the case.

Sometimes your counters are more expensive: AHACs > Hellcats
Sometimes your counters are cheaper: Drakes > AHACS

the key to this game is strategy not just bring the biggest sledgehammer.
Trader 99
The Black Hornets
#843 - 2011-10-11 08:03:56 UTC
These changes are long overdue.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#844 - 2011-10-11 08:04:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Acwron wrote:
All I can see in the NERF side is : It's cool to be tackled by a lousy dictor and just can't hit it...After all, you fly a 17 bill Hull price SC and a dictor is like...how much?
Roughly $irrelevant ± market fluctuations.

You are flying a ship that is not meant to take on subcaps, and most certainly not cruisers; he is flying a ship that is meant to take on supercaps. He should quite rightly be your biggest fear in the entire game.
Sigras
Conglomo
#845 - 2011-10-11 08:05:14 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Oh no! you'll be forced to use the supercarrier to do what it was originally designed to do! the horror! the horror!


If it was only originally designed to kill capitals, then why exactly can it do everything it can currently ? Its not as though they just threw them on the server without testing them on the test server.

Because of course CCP never does anything without fully thinking it through . . . Roll
Ciryath Al'Darion
FinFleet
Northern Coalition.
#846 - 2011-10-11 08:06:06 UTC
Velin Dhal wrote:

the real point here is that people are looking to exclude entire ship types from fleet fights just because one side can't or won't field Caps of their own.


This.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#847 - 2011-10-11 08:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
Velin Dhal wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
ITT: Crying nullbears grieving for their "IWIN!!!!111oneone!!1" buttons.

Adapt and evolve, or GTFO.




Here is an idea. Go macro in your Orca and hulk toons and STFU. Leave the topic to people who actually have pvp experience.


I literally snorted coffee out my nose, this made me laugh so hard!

I have plenty of PvP experience, mate. Sov-warfare/super-blobbing is not anything I would remotely associate with actual proper PvP, at least as EVE's core-ethos defines it.

So....are you going to sell off some of your bot-accounts now that supers may be worth less? Time will tell, I suppose...

Ni.
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#848 - 2011-10-11 08:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Anile8er
Gevlin wrote:
i guess my biggest complaint with the super carriers was their ability to just MOW though the sov structures like butter.

I though this was the primary task of dreadknots.

So now the only use for the deadknot is to just shoot Towers.



Fighter bomber damage needs to be tuned down. Other than the Doomsday, the dread should be the final word in capital damage platforms, I have supported this since the supercap buff.

SC drone bays need to be left alone or tuned down in a less harsh manner.

For example enough space to fit 40 bomber or fighter size drones and 2000 m3 for smaller drones. This would greatly limit the "endless" ecm drone waves. However it would give supers a chance to deal with that "initial" 1 or 2 tacklers.

Also the change to fighters is pretty stupid. Has anyone ever looked at a fighter in the game? They are a bit smaller than an interceptor, they individually do the dps of a T1 frigate, the EHP of a buff Assault frigate, and they are about as fast as a frigate. So a "ship" that is smaller than a frigate, about the same speed and hit points has guns that can't hit a BS or BC well? what is the logic here? In theory fighters should be able to dual with frigate class ships based on size, speed and HP.
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#849 - 2011-10-11 08:08:30 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Oh no! you'll be forced to use the supercarrier to do what it was originally designed to do! the horror! the horror!


If it was only originally designed to kill capitals, then why exactly can it do everything it can currently ? Its not as though they just threw them on the server without testing them on the test server.

Because of course CCP never does anything without fully thinking it through . . . Roll


True enough. Though going from one extreme to the other isn't the right thing to do. This patch seems to be another case of CCP not thinking this through. With a little more thought and some DEVs actually reading this thread, I'm sure we could reach a median that everyone could live with.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#850 - 2011-10-11 08:09:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Hirana Yoshida
Forgot to add:
Being able to keep an enemy ship in space indefinitely is really, really crappy design and while it allows for some loltastic mails it will do more harm than good.

I would recommend allowing one extension of timer (ie. 30 minutes maximum) and removing auto-repeat for modules on logoff.
If someone is incapable of killing an unhardened ship in that much time they seriously need to re-evaluate their ship/friend/tactic choice .. goes double now that super EHP are to be lowered and the 'feature' confirmed to apply to all ships.

PS: With suggested changes I can solo kill an Aeon in my Slicer if in just shy of 20 hours .. great "lulz" but hardly appropriate.
Sigras
Conglomo
#851 - 2011-10-11 08:12:15 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
Also the change to fighters is pretty stupid. Has anyone ever looked at a fighter in the game? The are a bit smaller than an interceptor, they individually do the dps of a T1 frigate, the EHP of a buff Assault frigate, and they are about as fast as a frigate. So a "ship" that is smaller than a frigate, about the same speed and hit points has guns that can't hit a BS or BC well? what is the logic here? In theory fighters should be able to dual with frigate class ships based on size, speed and HP.


Have you ever seen a heavy drone?
Shadowsword
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#852 - 2011-10-11 08:13:22 UTC
Anile8er wrote:
I can afford to loose my Nyx... thats why i use it. It's more that CCP is making my Nyx useless other than killing caps, and more so useless to me because I am not in a giant blob alliance, and I cant change into another ship.


You can still dps structures as fast as 15 players in battleships, same against other capitals, and can absorb as much damage as 100 battleships. If an enemy fleet of your size and composition choose to focus you first, your sacrifice win the fleet battle.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#853 - 2011-10-11 08:14:45 UTC
Might as well repost this in the correct thread:

Fighters vs. the “standard” 400m sigrad battleship:

Firbolg: currently 72% DPS → 7.2% (18% with a TP).
Dragonfly: currently 98% DPS → 61% (77% with a TP).
Einherji: currently 58% DPS → 3.4% (9% with a TP).
Templar: currently 96% DPS → 59% (76% with a TP).

I retract my previous stance — no skill bonus needed.
Leon Razor
Measure Zero
#854 - 2011-10-11 08:14:58 UTC
Well 16 hours and 42 pages later it's nice to see the community arguing (constructively?) over a FiS feature this time. I know something like this has been said at least once here, but I think they need to hear it again just in case they haven't gotten it yet.

CCP:

  1. Read this entire thread, there are reasonable suggestions here from both sides
  2. Make some adjustments
  3. Make another blog about it
  4. Read another 40+ page thread
  5. Maybe repeat this process a few times
  6. Then post a final list of balance changes well before the patch day
  7. Be prepared to make adjustments before the next big expansion

If you are really serious about listening to your player base and regaining their trust, you are going to need lots of two way communication. I know you gather a lot of info before deciding on changes like these, but you need to continue that process up to and after release. Most people feel like balance changes are simple database value updates that are easy to do, so since it's relatively quick to implement them, spend the extra time talking and listening to us, and don't wait 18 months to react.

Aside from the harsh vs effective (SC vs blob) arguments, a general issue people on both sides seem to have with these changes is that they are too flat, e.g.

  • Overall HP -20% VS a variable HP nerf that considers the unique properties of each ship
  • Removing all drones VS something like a smaller drone bay for non-fighters (like you did with the separate fuel cargo bays)
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#855 - 2011-10-11 08:15:05 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
Velin Dhal wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
ITT: Crying nullbears grieving for their "IWIN!!!!111oneone!!1" buttons.

Adapt and evolve, or GTFO.




Here is an idea. Go macro in your Orca and hulk toons and STFU. Leave the topic to people who actually have pvp experience.


I literally snorted coffee out my nose, this made me laugh so hard!

I have plenty of PvP experience, mate. Sov-warfare/super-blobbing is not anything I would remotely associate with actual proper PvP, at least as EVE's core-ethos defines it.

So....are you going to sell off some of your bot-accounts now that supers may be worth less? Time will tell, I suppose...



lol your original post made me laugh as well. So I had to go with something extreme
Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#856 - 2011-10-11 08:15:39 UTC
You know it. CCP is so blind in order to get more subs they are willing to chop off their own nose.

Silence iKillYouu wrote:
Everyone will be unsubbing there cap alts.

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#857 - 2011-10-11 08:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jada Maroo
I don't fly caps nor do I really want to anytime soon, but one thing that irks me about the changes is the general lack of creativity. Many changes seem to effect all ships of the size/class the same and none really play into racial themes at all. The changes are "easy." Nerfing and changing the ships is fine, but at least try to find a proper role for them while you're at it.

Dreads have siege mode - this is good, and the idea ought to be carried over to other capital ships. Specialized modes that fit with the theme of the ship's class.

Carriers have triage - this is bad. This role really ought to be moved to a special class of capital logistics ships. On carriers I would actually require a Theater Defense Module, which must be active in order to assign fighters to ships off-grid. Else fighters would be limitted to the grid.

Super carriers - expand their SMAs a bit and allow them to have clone vat bays. Remove the ability to field anything except fighter-bombers. Make them proper heavy carriers only.

Titans: I'd like to see Doomsday removed entirely and replaced with something more useful and tricky than "big gun go boom." What if the Leviathan could field a massively powerful ECM burst? Or the Avatar had a pulse to sap a fleet's capacitors 50%? Some sort of powerful effect that could, when used at the right time, change the tide of battle.
Fiberton
StarFleet Enterprises
#858 - 2011-10-11 08:17:34 UTC
I too realize CCP is making bad choices.

Bluemelon wrote:
All I am gonna say is, this is a massive **** you to the older players who have earnt their isk without RMT'ing and being whiny faggots.

Titans can be killed by 90 Hurricanes. Simple. They are balanced. Supers, are not. If I choose to put my titan stationary and in a system for 10mins for doomsdaying a ******* loki, thats my choice.

Stupid change

“Out of clutter, find simplicity. From discord, find harmony. In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity.” --  Albert  Einstein  "War is a mere continuation of politics by other means,"
Anile8er
Holoband Research and Development
#859 - 2011-10-11 08:19:59 UTC
Leon Razor wrote:
Well 16 hours and 42 pages later it's nice to see the community arguing (constructively?) over a FiS feature this time. I know something like this has been said at least once here, but I think they need to hear it again just in case they haven't gotten it yet.

CCP:

  1. Read this entire thread, there are reasonable suggestions here from both sides
  2. Make some adjustments
  3. Make another blog about it
  4. Read another 40+ page thread
  5. Maybe repeat this process a few times
  6. Then post a final list of balance changes well before the patch day
  7. Be prepared to make adjustments before the next big expansion

If you are really serious about listening to your player base and regaining their trust, you are going to need lots of two way communication. I know you gather a lot of info before deciding on changes like these, but you need to continue that process up to and after release. Most people feel like balance changes are simple database value updates that are easy to do, so since it's relatively quick to implement them, spend the extra time talking and listening to us, and don't wait 18 months to react.

Aside from the harsh vs effective (SC vs blob) arguments, a general issue people on both sides seem to have with these changes is that they are too flat, e.g.

  • Overall HP -20% VS a variable HP nerf that considers the unique properties of each ship
  • Removing all drones VS something like a smaller drone bay for non-fighters (like you did with the separate fuel cargo bays)


Signed
Velin Dhal
Zeonic CG
#860 - 2011-10-11 08:21:26 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
I don't fly caps nor do I really want to anytime soon, but one thing that irks me about the changes is the general lack of creativity. Many changes seem to effect all ships of the size/class the same and none really play into racial themes at all. The changes are "easy." Nerfing and changing the ships is fine, but at least try to find a proper role for them while you're at it.

Dreads have siege mode - this is good, and the idea ought to be carried over to other capital ships. Specialized modes that fit with the theme of the ship's class.

Carriers have triage - this is bad. This role really ought to be moved to a special class of capital logistics ships. On carriers I would actually require a Theater Defense Module, which must be active in order to assign fighters to ships off-grid. Else fighters would be limitted to the grid.

Titans ought to be the ultimate mobile command platform. They should be the critical center of a large fleet. More than a bridge and a giant cannon, give them the role of as a sort of super command ship. An area of effect bonus to allied ships that are on grid with them. Also I'd like to see Doomsday removed entirely and replaced with something more useful and tricky than "big gun go boom." What if the Leviathan could field a massively powerful ECM burst? Or the Avatar had a pulse to sap a fleet's capacitors 50%? Some sort of powerful effect that could, when used at the right time, change the tide of battle.



For a pilot that doesn't fly caps, I think you just had the most creative and exciting idea in this entire thread.