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Crime & Punishment

 
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Hulkageddon made me quit

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Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#601 - 2012-07-22 20:51:38 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Corina: "Wrong. It is only an exploit if it causes lag.

You can have 2 billion cans if it doesn't cause lag (can cloud of doom). Not going to happen, but if it did, there would be no problem."


Well not true. A lot of folks think its just a lag issue since that's clear in the EULA. But, it's not just that. There are a lot of posts on this topic, but from the current open ticket I have on this issue, the GM response has been, to paraphrase "we know it's an exploit, but cannot do anything unless we see it". Can't show you the log sorry. However, if you would like to verify for yourself; Drop about 100 cans or so in a spherical pattern around a low sec gate, kick back, blast guys who decloak or bounce, and chat with the GM when he arrives.


- Majiir

There has been plenty of GM discussions on this, even on the forums. It is ONLY an exploit if it causes lag.

Otherwise it is a legitimate decloaking tactic.


Can't comment on the bumping, because I've never seen it, nor know exactly what you are referring to.
Pipa Porto
#602 - 2012-07-23 13:31:44 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Astro: Fair enough, I don't know the subscriber base numbers for Eve, nor how many they have lost over the years, nor how many are multiples from the same people.


http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

Here you go. EVE's the Blue Line.

It's currently the Third Largest Paid Western MMO by Subscriptions (no MMO tries to publicly track the number of players). 5th Largest including Runescape and SL, which are FTP. They're also pretty much the only MMO around that doesn't have the massive spike followed by a crash trend line (I'd say that means their growth is anything but crippled).

Anyway, there is no aspect in EVE that does not put you in competition with other players. That's PVP. If you don't like spaceships shooting each other, that's fine, you can mitigate the direct effects it has on you.

If you like manufacturing, the only reason there's a significant market for whatever you're making is that people are blowing ships up. If you like running missions, the only reason there's a significant market for whatever you're cashing your LP for is that people are blowing shiny ships up. And so on.

EVE's not moving towards a violent funhouse, it started out as one. If anything, it is getting safer and safer for people in HS all the time (Right now, CCP's considering a measure that will cause a 5-8fold increase in the cost to gank Freighters and that was originally going to allow Logis to rep without being shootable in certain situations).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#603 - 2012-07-23 13:35:20 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
There was a time when you simply insta popped due to massive fire, trying to attack someone in HS. Couldn't be done. But oh no, poor gankers simply had to have something easy to kill, can't afford the loses because they wont spend time generating income, and have little interest in trying to promote the game to new players.


No, there wasn't. You're confusing EVE with some other game.

There was, on the other hand, a time when you could Tank CONCORD (look up the Yulai incident with Zombies).

HS has never been safe. It's just got its own mechanics for combat that you have to deal with and plan for.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#604 - 2012-07-23 14:47:37 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Astro: Fair enough, I don't know the subscriber base numbers for Eve, nor how many they have lost over the years, nor how many are multiples from the same people.


http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
....

SWG has finally died?Sad
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#605 - 2012-07-23 15:21:19 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Astro: Fair enough, I don't know the subscriber base numbers for Eve, nor how many they have lost over the years, nor how many are multiples from the same people.


http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
....

SWG has finally died?Sad


Didn't it shut down 15 Dec 2011?
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#606 - 2012-07-23 18:17:43 UTC
Ah, Dark Age of Camelot. That was my favorite game for the longest time. I miss my Nightshade and Cabalist. ;P

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Pipa Porto
#607 - 2012-07-23 21:25:45 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Astro: Fair enough, I don't know the subscriber base numbers for Eve, nor how many they have lost over the years, nor how many are multiples from the same people.


http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png
....

SWG has finally died?Sad


Yep. From what I hear, people complained about the risk of losing their stuff to unexpected PVP, so they removed that. Then people complained about losing their stuff in expected PVP, so they removed that. You could ram your ship into other ships over and over and your ship would just respawn. Then it died.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#608 - 2012-07-23 22:12:26 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Corina: "Wrong. It is only an exploit if it causes lag.

You can have 2 billion cans if it doesn't cause lag (can cloud of doom). Not going to happen, but if it did, there would be no problem."


Well not true. A lot of folks think its just a lag issue since that's clear in the EULA. But, it's not just that. There are a lot of posts on this topic, but from the current open ticket I have on this issue, the GM response has been, to paraphrase "we know it's an exploit, but cannot do anything unless we see it".


Well, they want to see the gate to check if it's lagging or not. Isn't that obvious? And only then is it handled as an exploit.
And stop telling that "bumping" tale. That's getting ridiculous.
Amy Tian
KITAY Syndicate
#609 - 2012-07-24 06:10:22 UTC
Jeremy Firewind wrote:
Hey,

I find it totally untolarable, that 3 1 mill Isk ships can easily gank my tanked 300mill hull. Sorry, but this makes me really sad. It put me out of business for good, that was my last money. Your cool event just cost CCP a subscriber.


Yes tears are delightful, yadda, yadda, no stuff is to be had, because it all exploded.


MAKE FRIENDS GO TO NULLSEC!!!

Seriously though, nullsec/whs have the ability of being much safer. You just need to pick the right space with the right people, there are plenty of indy corps part of Sov alliances that would probably take you in, and possibly even reimburse you for losses. Lose less ships and mine better roids?
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#610 - 2012-07-24 07:11:05 UTC
Pipa: The graph your showing comes from MMOdata.net. What your not showing is the next graph up.. the 1m-12m subscriber graph. Eve would be below the first semi axis mark around 361k subscribers on this graph.

1m-12m subs

What I mentioned earlier somewhere is that Eve has not grown instep with the overall market. What I'm suggesting is that one of the reasons is linked to loss of subscribers, with a one cause of that being ganking.


To all the wanna be economists: I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has actually modelled the Eve economy. I'm willing to bet their own staff economist is scratching his/her head most of the time. Personally, I really don't see a problem with low materials cost, lower ships cost, etc.. it just means bigger ships will be flown because the material are cheap and readily available to manufacturers.
What I DO see as a problem is ganks in HS - and by gank I mean a non consensual pvp. Forgetting about all the dogma about how good it is for the game, what I'm suggesting is your running people off. Many of you argue this is a good thing... which is complete nonsense imo.

For any aspiring economist / psychologist working on affects of emotional utility and aggression in a gaming environment.. there's a great thesis here.


Astro: get over yourself


Danks: yeah that's what I said.

- Majiir
Pipa Porto
#611 - 2012-07-24 07:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Pipa: The graph your showing comes from MMOdata.net. What your not showing is the next graph up.. the 1m-12m subscriber graph. Eve would be below the first semi axis mark around 361k subscribers on this graph.

1m-12m subs

What I mentioned earlier somewhere is that Eve has not grown instep with the overall market. What I'm suggesting is that one of the reasons is linked to loss of subscribers, with a one cause of that being ganking.


You're not great at reading graphs, are you?

Count the number of MMOs who are still alive on that 1-12m graph.

There's WOW, Aion (a Korean MMO, so not Western), SWOTOR, and Runescape (a FTP).

Above EVE on the 100k -1m graph is Second Life (a FTP).

WOW and SWOTOR have enormous companies backing them. Blizzard's the Jesus of Game companies, and the worlds largest multimedia franchise is behind SWOTOR. Aion's the top Korean MMO. They're all outliers (the clue is that they're an order of magnitude bigger than most other MMOs).

That puts EVE at 3rd largest Paid Western, 4th Largest Paid Worldwide, and 6th Largest MMO Worldwide including FTP.

EVE's also unique in that it doesn't have the spike and fall graph that so many other MMOs have, including SWOTOR, Aion, and WOW.


Saying EVE has not grown in step with the overall market when you're only comparing it to the top two MMOs in the world is like saying Oracle's in trouble because it's not as big as Microsoft and Apple.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Ra Jackson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#612 - 2012-07-24 07:59:31 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:

What I mentioned earlier somewhere is that Eve has not grown instep with the overall market. What I'm suggesting is that one of the reasons is linked to loss of subscribers, with a one cause of that being ganking.


Eve is the only MMO still growing subscriber numbers (after over 9 years) so wtf are you talking about?
Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#613 - 2012-07-24 16:35:47 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:



Danks: yeah that's what I said.

- Majiir



If you are referring to this:

Danks wrote:

Are you saying that you used to not be able to kill someone in high security space? That you'd be killed before you could kill them?

Forgive me asking for you to clarify this specific point, but your inability to properly quote is a bit confusing.


You are incorrect. You've always been able to kill someone in High Sec, it's actually harder today than it used to be. Buffing of gate guns and making Concord untankable are two examples of this.
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#614 - 2012-07-24 19:11:37 UTC
Danks: No actually I'm right. I know for a fact because we tried. We (the corp) we're experimenting with ganks in high sec, mostly to see if you could run from Concord at the time. Insta pop.. no damage to target, every single time. So we moved off to more lucrative targets, this was way before bubbles, back when you had to fly to gate etc - yeah I was on the dark side for many years early in the game. Seems I even recall Celestial Horizon, though at the time we warred with Celestial Apoc. in Vale and Geminate. Now I'm a born again evangelist for new players and anti ganking.

- Majiir
Pipa Porto
#615 - 2012-07-24 19:16:26 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Danks: No actually I'm right. I know for a fact because we tried. We (the corp) we're experimenting with ganks in high sec, mostly to see if you could run from Concord at the time. Insta pop.. no damage to target, every single time. So we moved off to more lucrative targets, this was way before bubbles, back when you had to fly to gate etc - yeah I was on the dark side for many years early in the game. Seems I even recall Celestial Horizon, though at the time we warred with Celestial Apoc. in Vale and Geminate. Now I'm a born again evangelist for new players and anti ganking.

- Majiir


Then you were Hilariously bad at the game. Ganking people in HS has always been possible. Before CONCORD became untankable, it just wasn't a suicide gank, because there wasn't a Suicide.

Look up the Yulai incident.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#616 - 2012-07-24 19:21:02 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Danks: No actually I'm right. I know for a fact because we tried. We (the corp) we're experimenting with ganks in high sec, mostly to see if you could run from Concord at the time. Insta pop.. no damage to target, every single time. So we moved off to more lucrative targets, this was way before bubbles, back when you had to fly to gate etc - yeah I was on the dark side for many years early in the game. Seems I even recall Celestial Horizon, though at the time we warred with Celestial Apoc. in Vale and Geminate. Now I'm a born again evangelist for new players and anti ganking.

- Majiir


Wow, not sure what game you've been playing. Suicide ganks have always been a part of high sec. When I started back in 2004 it was Kestrels loaded with cruise missles killing badgers.

I would suggest learning how to play the game as well as the history if you want to be taken seriously.
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#617 - 2012-07-24 19:25:27 UTC
Danks: My game start was 2003.5.10


- Majiir
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#618 - 2012-07-24 19:53:12 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Danks: My game start was 2003.5.10


- Majiir

Post with your main. Until that time, you are lying through your teeth. (or keyboard in this case)
Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#619 - 2012-07-24 20:26:48 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Danks: My game start was 2003.5.10


- Majiir


Back when you could tank Concord. You're either and idiot or a Troll. I'm guessing Troll, and I bit hard. Good job dude.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#620 - 2012-07-24 21:21:18 UTC
Hate to get in the middle of a pissing contest, but I also have been off and on the game since 2004. I do not remember all the details, but I do remember distinctly ganking us carebears being MUCH easier back then. It was almost abusive, lol. Now at least they have a chance to get away.
I also remember when a corp held of Concord for a few hours while they killed just about every thing that came through one of the gates (myself included at the time, in my Badger MkII). Not sure, but that may be the "Yulai incident" mentioned above. Its been too long to remember details.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly