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Crime & Punishment

 
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Hulkageddon made me quit

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Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#581 - 2012-07-22 04:07:36 UTC
Tarryn: The OP started this thread with he was quitting due to getting ganked in HighSec, losing an expensive ship he worked hard for, and most of his justification for subscribing.

My point is, he's just the tip of the iceberg. High Sec violence needs to be reduced if Eve wants to attract and retain subscribers. Eve began around 15k-20k subscribers in 2003 if memory serves.. maybe a few thousand less. Today they boast 40k and change. That's a 2x increase in 9 years. Not all that stellar in the business world. It's unknown how many of those accounts are multiples from the same subscriber.. and I would bet at least 10%, maybe as high as 50%. So your really talking about 20-35k real people playing. Let newcomers get used to the game before getting vaporized/stolen from/ etc. My own wife refuses to play this game, and she loves games, simply because she got killed in High Sec while trying to learn the mechanics---multiple times, that experience convinced my sons and brother in law not to play - yeah we're a gaming family what can I say... so in just my family, 4 additional accounts lost, and that doesn't even count all the multiples I had... that's no way to introduce people to a game.

Also, these aren't kids we're talking about.. a LOT of adults are gamers.. my "kids" are 20 and 30 yo, my bro in law is in his 40's. heh, so I'll say it again.. all ganking violence in High Sec should be stopped... insta pops on any aggressor - pods too, account ban for a month, hard nose policy. Tough Love works. No question about reimbursements to new players is a good idea too. Make the game new player friendly. Anyway trying not to get too off topic, just sayin.. I enjoyed the game years back when I could sit out in null sec and never see anyone.. mine the tasty ores.. kick back with a beverage, kill the occasional rat.. good stuff.

Cheers,
- Majiir
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#582 - 2012-07-22 04:51:27 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Tarryn: The OP started this thread with he was quitting due to getting ganked in HighSec, losing an expensive ship he worked hard for, and most of his justification for subscribing.

My point is, he's just the tip of the iceberg. High Sec violence needs to be reduced if Eve wants to attract and retain subscribers. Eve began around 15k-20k subscribers in 2003 if memory serves.. maybe a few thousand less. Today they boast 40k and change. That's a 2x increase in 9 years. Not all that stellar in the business world. It's unknown how many of those accounts are multiples from the same subscriber.. and I would bet at least 10%, maybe as high as 50%. So your really talking about 20-35k real people playing. Let newcomers get used to the game before getting vaporized/stolen from/ etc. My own wife refuses to play this game, and she loves games, simply because she got killed in High Sec while trying to learn the mechanics---multiple times, that experience convinced my sons and brother in law not to play - yeah we're a gaming family what can I say... so in just my family, 4 additional accounts lost, and that doesn't even count all the multiples I had... that's no way to introduce people to a game.

Also, these aren't kids we're talking about.. a LOT of adults are gamers.. my "kids" are 20 and 30 yo, my bro in law is in his 40's. heh, so I'll say it again.. all ganking violence in High Sec should be stopped... insta pops on any aggressor - pods too, account ban for a month, hard nose policy. Tough Love works. No question about reimbursements to new players is a good idea too. Make the game new player friendly. Anyway trying not to get too off topic, just sayin.. I enjoyed the game years back when I could sit out in null sec and never see anyone.. mine the tasty ores.. kick back with a beverage, kill the occasional rat.. good stuff.

Cheers,
- Majiir

If what you want was initiated, EVE would die within a few weeks (ok months because CCP would try to apologize). There are thousands of players who think the HS mechanic needs more, not less risk.

This game is for a specific set of players. CCP knew this when they started. They shouldn't cater to another type of player, and risk losing the ones that kept them afloat (and thrived, for as few as they have).
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#583 - 2012-07-22 05:33:26 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Tarryn: The OP started this thread with he was quitting due to getting ganked in HighSec, losing an expensive ship he worked hard for, and most of his justification for subscribing.

My point is, he's just the tip of the iceberg. High Sec violence needs to be reduced if Eve wants to attract and retain subscribers. Eve began around 15k-20k subscribers in 2003 if memory serves.. maybe a few thousand less. Today they boast 40k and change. That's a 2x increase in 9 years. Not all that stellar in the business world. It's unknown how many of those accounts are multiples from the same subscriber.. and I would bet at least 10%, maybe as high as 50%. So your really talking about 20-35k real people playing. Let newcomers get used to the game before getting vaporized/stolen from/ etc. My own wife refuses to play this game, and she loves games, simply because she got killed in High Sec while trying to learn the mechanics---multiple times, that experience convinced my sons and brother in law not to play - yeah we're a gaming family what can I say... so in just my family, 4 additional accounts lost, and that doesn't even count all the multiples I had... that's no way to introduce people to a game.

Also, these aren't kids we're talking about.. a LOT of adults are gamers.. my "kids" are 20 and 30 yo, my bro in law is in his 40's. heh, so I'll say it again.. all ganking violence in High Sec should be stopped... insta pops on any aggressor - pods too, account ban for a month, hard nose policy. Tough Love works. No question about reimbursements to new players is a good idea too. Make the game new player friendly. Anyway trying not to get too off topic, just sayin.. I enjoyed the game years back when I could sit out in null sec and never see anyone.. mine the tasty ores.. kick back with a beverage, kill the occasional rat.. good stuff.

Cheers,
- Majiir

If what you want was initiated, EVE would die within a few weeks (ok months because CCP would try to apologize). There are thousands of players who think the HS mechanic needs more, not less risk.

This game is for a specific set of players. CCP knew this when they started. They shouldn't cater to another type of player, and risk losing the ones that kept them afloat (and thrived, for as few as they have).
Last time I checked, eve had a few hundred thousand subscribers, not 40. (there are over 25k people online right now).
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#584 - 2012-07-22 06:04:52 UTC
Corina: "If what you want was initiated, EVE would die within a few weeks"

I really don't buy that. I have never understood why people think there is a need to kill people in HS. I cannot think of one good reason to do that. You have LS, WH, NS .. all these places where experienced players and folks wanting to step out into more dangerous areas, can go.. why in HS.. makes no sense, you kill your new player market. The only reason to do that is because people want to gank players who are underpowered or unfitted for a pvp fight. It's bullying, pure and simple. If you have the guts, test yourself against those who can fight back, not just so you can stroke your ego at the expense of others.


Astro: Fair enough, I don't know the subscriber base numbers for Eve, nor how many they have lost over the years, nor how many are multiples from the same people. Personally I love the game, have from day one. But I don't necessarily want to PvP all the time. I enjoy Pve, mining, manufacturing, trading, all that. But I think Eve has chosen a path that has crippled their growth and There are few voices that support less violence in HS. but you never stop hearing from players who have had enough, and leave... I'd like to stop that trend. I want to see more people, new players, enjoy this game not so they can get popped by some perps, but for all the other rich features Eve has coded in over the years. This game has more to offer than pvp, more pvp, endless pvp.....
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#585 - 2012-07-22 06:12:33 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Corina: "If what you want was initiated, EVE would die within a few weeks"

I really don't buy that. I have never understood why people think there is a need to kill people in HS. I cannot think of one good reason to do that. You have LS, WH, NS .. all these places where experienced players and folks wanting to step out into more dangerous areas, can go.. why in HS.. makes no sense, you kill your new player market. The only reason to do that is because people want to gank players who are underpowered or unfitted for a pvp fight. It's bullying, pure and simple. If you have the guts, test yourself against those who can fight back, not just so you can stroke your ego at the expense of others.


Astro: Fair enough, I don't know the subscriber base numbers for Eve, nor how many they have lost over the years, nor how many are multiples from the same people. Personally I love the game, have from day one. But I don't necessarily want to PvP all the time. I enjoy Pve, mining, manufacturing, trading, all that. But I think Eve has chosen a path that has crippled their growth and There are few voices that support less violence in HS. but you never stop hearing from players who have had enough, and leave... I'd like to stop that trend. I want to see more people, new players, enjoy this game not so they can get popped by some perps, but for all the other rich features Eve has coded in over the years. This game has more to offer than pvp, more pvp, endless pvp.....

Thing is, ganking is a way to use pvp to pay for more pvp. (you can make more money buy blowing hulks in highsec than you can by flying the damn thing)

As for "you have lowsec ect. to go find people to pvp. That's only partialy true. Most of the people out there are just as afraid of pvp as people in highsec. And of the few that aren't flat out afraid of it, only a VERY small fraction are willing to undock with anything other than overwhelming odds in their favor.

EX: most of my attempts at soloing end like this.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#586 - 2012-07-22 07:41:05 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:

This game is for a specific set of players. CCP knew this when they started. They shouldn't cater to another type of player, and risk losing the ones that kept them afloat (and thrived, for as few as they have).


Actually I see the words 'sand box', and something for everyone, thrown around a lot. (not picking a particular side, but I must have missed the post where CCP said they only cater to a tiny market and arent interested in growth).

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#587 - 2012-07-22 07:51:52 UTC
Biggest problem I have seen so far is that, for all the talk about pvp, not a lot seems to go on at any one time in general in low sec / 0.0. There is a ton of boring time while looking for a fight or a gank. So they tend to jump into high sec where they can find targets, usually ones that dont or don't know how to fight back effectively.

On top of that, there is the rather steep learning curve, and the odd jumps going from high sec to low sec to 0.0, and you get a lot of players that are new to EVE's style of play that get frustrated, with a large % of them leaving.

(Just my opinion of course) They need to make Low Sec more desireable, both in minerals, and reasons to pvp there (losing faction is not a great reason to want to jump in). This would give more high sec players reasons to 'jump into the pool' as it were, and start enjoying the deeper waters.
0.0 is a whole different thing, and my experience in there is very limited, but the biggest problem I have seen as a passenger (son and few friends all live out there) is that any areas owned by corps are fairly simple to defend... just look for the non-blue that showed up on local and everyone starts hunting them down. Makes it difficult for smaller scale fun roams, hunting, etc, and in general does not make it feel as unsafe as low sec or (oddly enough) high sec.

What are good answers or solutions? I have a few ideas, but weather they are good are not I guess is up for interpretation. ;)

I would definitely love to see 80k+ people logged in at any one point, preferably accounts, and not just players with 4-6 alts logged in. lol

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#588 - 2012-07-22 09:37:51 UTC
Zyella: Right on.. great suggestions. 0.0 you spend a lot of time defending, but yeah makes better cash. Though I used to get plenty of ores from reprocessing drops from agent jobs. Seems like they must have changed that because reprocs are nowhere near what they used to be, seems like. Used to be better than mining - get ores while blowing stuff up.
Daemon Ceed
Ice Fire Warriors
#589 - 2012-07-22 11:21:42 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Biggest problem I have seen so far is that, for all the talk about pvp, not a lot seems to go on at any one time in general in low sec / 0.0. There is a ton of boring time while looking for a fight or a gank. So they tend to jump into high sec where they can find targets, usually ones that dont or don't know how to fight back effectively.


And who's fault is that? If the majority of people hide in highsec and are unwilling to at least learn to live in a bit more hostile prone environment, we are gonna come to highsec with blackened hearts and murder on our minds. I believe the point we are trying to make is that highsec is not a place you can come to hide from random acts of violence.

Zyella Stormborn wrote:

On top of that, there is the rather steep learning curve, and the odd jumps going from high sec to low sec to 0.0, and you get a lot of players that are new to EVE's style of play that get frustrated, with a large % of them leaving.


Agreed on the learning curve, but stats or gtfo on the "leaving" part. I believe you just chose to arbitrarily pull that one out of your deep 6. Most people I know who have started this game past a month or two have stayed despite incredible losses. I think it's due to the time investment. You spend a lot of time learning, skilling, grinding, etc. A typical person usually isn't willing to throw that away just because they got ganked a few times. It's my hope they learn and become better players, regardless if they are industrialists or purist pvp'ers.

Zyella Stormborn wrote:

(Just my opinion of course) They need to make Low Sec more desireable, both in minerals, and reasons to pvp there (losing faction is not a great reason to want to jump in). This would give more high sec players reasons to 'jump into the pool' as it were, and start enjoying the deeper waters.


Call me silly, but I doubt many miners would jump into lowsec even if they put Arkonor in every belt. Most miners I've talked to are totally risk averse, and in my line of work I end up speaking to many of them. Granted, the conversation usually begins with several choice profanities on their behalf, but on occasion it's possible to engage in a useful dialogue with them.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#590 - 2012-07-22 16:29:12 UTC
Daemon Ceed wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Biggest problem I have seen so far is that, for all the talk about pvp, not a lot seems to go on at any one time in general in low sec / 0.0. There is a ton of boring time while looking for a fight or a gank. So they tend to jump into high sec where they can find targets, usually ones that dont or don't know how to fight back effectively.


And who's fault is that? If the majority of people hide in highsec and are unwilling to at least learn to live in a bit more hostile prone environment, we are gonna come to highsec with blackened hearts and murder on our minds. I believe the point we are trying to make is that highsec is not a place you can come to hide from random acts of violence.

Zyella Stormborn wrote:

On top of that, there is the rather steep learning curve, and the odd jumps going from high sec to low sec to 0.0, and you get a lot of players that are new to EVE's style of play that get frustrated, with a large % of them leaving.


Agreed on the learning curve, but stats or gtfo on the "leaving" part. I believe you just chose to arbitrarily pull that one out of your deep 6. Most people I know who have started this game past a month or two have stayed despite incredible losses. I think it's due to the time investment. You spend a lot of time learning, skilling, grinding, etc. A typical person usually isn't willing to throw that away just because they got ganked a few times. It's my hope they learn and become better players, regardless if they are industrialists or purist pvp'ers.

Zyella Stormborn wrote:

(Just my opinion of course) They need to make Low Sec more desireable, both in minerals, and reasons to pvp there (losing faction is not a great reason to want to jump in). This would give more high sec players reasons to 'jump into the pool' as it were, and start enjoying the deeper waters.


Call me silly, but I doubt many miners would jump into lowsec even if they put Arkonor in every belt. Most miners I've talked to are totally risk averse, and in my line of work I end up speaking to many of them. Granted, the conversation usually begins with several choice profanities on their behalf, but on occasion it's possible to engage in a useful dialogue with them.



Lol you are a poor example Demon, in that you are one of the extremes on the other side. I think a lot of the rage and tears on the forums comes from conflict with people from the 2 extremes of the spectrum (PVP-only-screw-who-you-can types that want the non stop adrenaline, and the PVE-only-carebears that want to never have to interact with other players across the barrel of a gun). I myself am a bit more of a middle-of-the-road (getting older and a bit more mellow) type that enjoys both but leans towards mining / missioning.

Would upgrading the ores in low sec be an ultimate fix? I seriously doubt it. But would it start putting more high sec players out there, and in particular corporations? I believe it would. As for other fixes and / or incentives, I truly don't know, and I am sure there are a lot of pple out there who have great ideas. The point was there really is not much of a slope, only a cliff.
As for the percentage of leaving remark. I have been playing this game off and on since 2004. Due to that, a lot of friends, family, and even some other co workers have tried the game out. Five of them total are still playing. Three out of those five are CoD and TF2 junkies that don't give two damns about anything in the game other than what the best pvp ships are and how to fit em. The rest had repeated bad experiences early on, or (against my advice at the time) tried to get a better feel for the game in bad locations (too close to Jita).

I am not laying fault at the feet of players, I think a large part of it is simply the way the game is laid out. And CCP has been making inroads over the years (adding in the newbie section and training missions, etc) which is slowly helping out the new pple. Making the slope a little easier on them would help more, and coming up with some form of fixes to help out spicing things up in 0.0 and low sec i think would be an even better step.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Genna Illiad
Bird-in-Hand
#591 - 2012-07-22 16:41:26 UTC
Making High Sec totally safe would just result in another form of inflation.

Perhaps the only compromise one could make would be to make a slight adjustment at the upper end. Make 1.0 space safer, in that if you gank, there are much more serious consequences. Like maybe your Sec status drops by -5.0. And if your sec status is -5.0 or worse, you get insta-killed by Concord if you try to enter a 1.0 system, perhaps even podded.

Then ganks could still happen in 1.0, but they would be rare. And there isn't much 1.0 space out there, so it wouldn't change the rest of the universe all that much.

Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#592 - 2012-07-22 17:13:58 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:

This game is for a specific set of players. CCP knew this when they started. They shouldn't cater to another type of player, and risk losing the ones that kept them afloat (and thrived, for as few as they have).


Actually I see the words 'sand box', and something for everyone, thrown around a lot. (not picking a particular side, but I must have missed the post where CCP said they only cater to a tiny market and arent interested in growth).

Sorry, I wasn't clear...

The "specific set of players" is hopefully a rather large set, that being ones who know they will get shot at and make changes to lessen the chance or effect of it. IE, adapters.

The players they should not cater to are the ones who want CCP to make the changes that are already available to the players, so that they can do whatever in peace.


And EVE is not a sandbox... there are some rules.
As much as people like to claim it, a true sandbox cannot exist as a multiplayer game (well, maybe minecraft...). Its self destructive.
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#593 - 2012-07-22 18:16:07 UTC
Daemon:

"And who's fault is that? If the majority of people hide in highsec and are unwilling to at least learn to live in a bit more hostile prone environment"
Pure speculation, people enjoy different forms of game play, not everyone wants to play the same way you do. As a business I suspect Eve would like to retain as many of all types of players as possible. It's not all about you and your wants.

"and you get a lot of players that are new to EVE's style of play that get frustrated, with a large % of them leaving."

Absolutely

"Agreed on the learning curve, but stats or gtfo on the "leaving" part. "

Here's a stat, in my gaming family, 5 of us play games online. All of us tried Eve. Only I have stayed in Eve, the rest quit due to excessive perps using exploits and ganks in game. So that's an 80% revenue loss from our family. Factor in I had 9 accounts and now play 1, there's a lot more revenue loss for ya.


"(Just my opinion of course) They need to make Low Sec more desireable, both in minerals, and reasons to pvp there (losing faction is not a great reason to want to jump in). This would give more high sec players reasons to 'jump into the pool' as it were, and start enjoying the deeper waters."

Absolutely


"Call me silly, but I doubt many miners would jump into lowsec even if they put Arkonor in every belt."

Lol that's because you kill newbie miners mostly, prolly never even seen an ark roid. I can guarantee you if Ark was in every belt.. It wouldn't be lone miners in LS, it would be corps with combat support and massive mining ops. By the way, I mine LS all the time.. no probs at all, just need to use a little common sense. Several guides online can give you the best methods to do that.


- Majiir
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#594 - 2012-07-22 18:17:59 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
...
"Agreed on the learning curve, but stats or gtfo on the "leaving" part. "

Here's a stat, in my gaming family, 5 of us play games online. All of us tried Eve. Only I have stayed in Eve, the rest quit due to excessive perps using exploits and ganks in game. So that's an 80% revenue loss from our family. Factor in I had 9 accounts and now play 1, there's a lot more revenue loss for ya....

Using Exploits is breach of the EULA and is bannable.


Unless you mean, they just didn't like what was being done, in which case, tough.
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#595 - 2012-07-22 18:28:58 UTC
Corina:

The use of exploits is common, case in point, the ole drop crap loads of cans around a gate is an exploit when you reach a certain # of cans. YET, the only way the gankers gets caught is if, WHILE THE CANS ARE DEPLOYED, a GM sees them. Screens don't count.. CCP refuses to accept player screenshots.. So while there are a lot of bannable things, the reality is, some are unenforceable due to the need of GM's to be present to see them.


- Majiir
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#596 - 2012-07-22 18:33:05 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
Corina:

The use of exploits is common, case in point, the ole drop crap loads of cans around a gate is an exploit when you reach a certain # of cans. YET, the only way the gankers gets caught is if, WHILE THE CANS ARE DEPLOYED, a GM sees them. Screens don't count.. CCP refuses to accept player screenshots.. So while there are a lot of bannable things, the reality is, some are unenforceable due to the need of GM's to be present to see them.


- Majiir

Wrong. It is only an exploit if it causes lag.

You can have 2 billion cans if it doesn't cause lag (can cloud of doom). Not going to happen, but if it did, there would be no problem.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#597 - 2012-07-22 18:49:54 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:

This game is for a specific set of players. CCP knew this when they started. They shouldn't cater to another type of player, and risk losing the ones that kept them afloat (and thrived, for as few as they have).


Actually I see the words 'sand box', and something for everyone, thrown around a lot. (not picking a particular side, but I must have missed the post where CCP said they only cater to a tiny market and arent interested in growth).

Sorry, I wasn't clear...

The "specific set of players" is hopefully a rather large set, that being ones who know they will get shot at and make changes to lessen the chance or effect of it. IE, adapters.

The players they should not cater to are the ones who want CCP to make the changes that are already available to the players, so that they can do whatever in peace.


And EVE is not a sandbox... there are some rules.
As much as people like to claim it, a true sandbox cannot exist as a multiplayer game (well, maybe minecraft...). Its self destructive.


You are correct, I misread what your meaning was. I understand (and agree) now.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#598 - 2012-07-22 18:50:28 UTC

"This game is for a specific set of players. CCP knew this when they started. They shouldn't cater to another type of player, and risk losing the ones that kept them afloat (and thrived, for as few as they have)."

hahaha, complete hogwash. having played Eve from the beginning, I assure you it's been the constant "whine" of gankers wanting a free lunch that has driven much of what you see today in HS. There was a time when you simply insta popped due to massive fire, trying to attack someone in HS. Couldn't be done. But oh no, poor gankers simply had to have something easy to kill, can't afford the loses because they wont spend time generating income, and have little interest in trying to promote the game to new players.


"The "specific set of players" is hopefully a rather large set, that being ones who know they will get shot at and make changes to lessen the chance or effect of it. IE, adapters."

Say what?? Please tell me your not involved in business anywhere, if so tell me the company so i can short their stock.


"The players they should not cater to are the ones who want CCP to make the changes that are already available to the players, so that they can do whatever in peace."

Uhh, CCP has done nothing but change the game from the beginning, both for the peacenics and the perps. Case in point - Used to be you had to fly to gates from 15km out.. mucho ganking occurred, players BM'd insta warps 15km behind the gates so they could land on them, and CCP changed to warp 0, introduced the warp bubble, etc etc.



- Majiir
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#599 - 2012-07-22 20:14:07 UTC
Corina: "Wrong. It is only an exploit if it causes lag.

You can have 2 billion cans if it doesn't cause lag (can cloud of doom). Not going to happen, but if it did, there would be no problem."


Well not true. A lot of folks think its just a lag issue since that's clear in the EULA. But, it's not just that. There are a lot of posts on this topic, but from the current open ticket I have on this issue, the GM response has been, to paraphrase "we know it's an exploit, but cannot do anything unless we see it". Can't show you the log sorry. However, if you would like to verify for yourself; Drop about 100 cans or so in a spherical pattern around a low sec gate, kick back, blast guys who decloak or bounce, and chat with the GM when he arrives.


- Majiir
Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#600 - 2012-07-22 20:50:00 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:
hahaha, complete hogwash. having played Eve from the beginning, I assure you it's been the constant "whine" of gankers wanting a free lunch that has driven much of what you see today in HS. There was a time when you simply insta popped due to massive fire, trying to attack someone in HS. Couldn't be done. But oh no, poor gankers simply had to have something easy to kill, can't afford the loses because they wont spend time generating income, and have little interest in trying to promote the game to new players.- Majiir


Are you saying that you used to not be able to kill someone in high security space? That you'd be killed before you could kill them?

Forgive me asking for you to clarify this specific point, but your inability to properly quote is a bit confusing.