Crime & Punishment

You may want to go check your math again. Hulks are incredibly expensive. And ore (especialy highsec ore) isn't that great in terms of income.

Do you have any idea how much you can make off of t2 slavage?

Corina: I agree, I've never lost a mining boat to a player. I often mine in HS and LS when I have the urge and love grav spawns. Quite lucrative. However, I can't sit on rocks for hours unless it's ark or crok, etc.


Genna: I think it's mostly because perps are lazy. Ganking provides quick returns when it's successful. I just think it should not be allowed in HS in order to give new players a chance to learn the game.

Corina: "The purpose of HS is so that mineral prices can be somewhat reasonable (aside from RP reasons I mean). This is also the purpose of ganking. Remove it, and mineral prices would plummet, along with the price of everything else. It would make EVE stagnant. "

hm. Well haven't read a dev post to that affect. True minerals prices would drop, why is that a bad thing? Make Eve stagnant?? I don't see that at all, there is WH, LS, and NS space to play in, why is safe HS space guaranteed to stagnate Eve?


- Majiir

Corina: "If HS became truly safe, then trading, mining, and manufacturing would become crappy professions.

The only ones who would make a decent amount of money would be Tech moon holders (though this is changing... eventually) and bounty miners (missions, ratting, anoms, etc)."

Well again I'm still not seeing the logic around why trading, mining, and manufacturing would be crappy professions given safe HS space.. Cheaper raw materials means better profits for manufacturers, as a builder I would love to see that :) and would be building like crazy. ROI margins are getting so thin now it's difficult to turn a profit on many ship builds, which of course drives the price of ships up... for everyone. T2 and Capital parts/components are simply stupid expensive and suck a vast portion of profits right out what with all the new crap you have to build with. I'm not an economics expert but still.. I can see my own costs of doing business and they have escalated a lot recently. One of my goals is to build a jump freighter for personal use, still trying to figure out how to get components reasonably priced for that one. But I'm starting to wonder if it's even feasible for a single player to do that.

Now it probably would require better bot policing maybe. I've never used a bot but have read they are quite effective.

Anyway I acknowledge your opinion on it, but so far mine remains the same. o/

- Majiir

The EVE market functions because of two things. It only functions, at all, because of these two things:

Demand is the most obvious, but the other is the velocity of supply through the market.

IOW, things getting urp-sploded must be replaced more often, even if the sheer numbers of things built/sold don't change much, and that's what makes player-crafting for profit possible.

If nothing got blowed-up on a fairly frequent basis, then yes, the price of things would drop.

But it would drop because there was no demand, so who would you sell--or more to the point, who would need to buy from you--all that suddenly cheap-to-build stuff to? How would you get the money/time invested into building same back?

The "supply" side in this game's economy is guaranteed:

100% re-spawning ores, NPC loot-drops, non-depleteable moon and PI resources, etc, which actually makes it fairly difficult to drive prices thereof permanently upward, barring CCP intervention.

That leaves only demand, and only constant demand as the real driver of the EVE-economy.

That demand is a result of destruction and conflict, and the fact that we have guaranteed non-scarce resources is one less driver of conflict. That leaves other drivers needing to step in, of which, as much as you may hate it, sui-ganking is a great one, as it makes expensive/resource-intensive things urp-splode, which drives demand for replacement.

And given how much of the player base is in hisec glutting up it's markets, then if you really want to make money as a crafter, then you wouldn't be against ganking--you'd be for the removal of CONCORD even, because that would guarantee maximum consistent demand, and turn-over of stock--that is, freeing up the money you'd invested in same, with profit, to re-invest, and put it to work for you again more quickly.

That's how you know who the really smart industrialists/crafters in this game are:

They are NOT the WoW-kiddies squealing like little fat piglets at the stockyard for a 100% safe hisec--they are the ones whom, at least tacitly, support the gankers/griefers/etc, and the ethos of non-consensual PvP being able to happen potentially anytime, even in deep 1.0:

Because without the latter, the former knows that they would have little/no profession or income:

There would simply be no reason or need for it.

Look on Battleclinic, bru:

Most kills are still of war-ships, not mining ships. Sui-ganking is actually a fairly small facet of total ship-destruction in EVE, because a lot of people don't want to get locked out of hisec, and go through the grating, /facedesk-inducing NPC (in nullsec, by the way--Onoez, we're skeered!) grind to get it back up. Getting from -8.00 to -1.60 is not fun, believe me. The dedicated "professional" gankers are relatively few, and those typically don't focus on newbies because,

A) A lot--of the ones I know, at least--agree that consistent preying on newbs is pretty lame. (Why, yes. Yes, it is.)

B) There is no profit to be made in ganking the new guy with the mining destroyer or Covetor--both of which are fully insurable, anyway, so no huge loss if not fitted stupidly (that Pithii A-Type SSB is not going to help your Covetor much when those 3 Arty-Thrashers land on grid, just sayin').

The supply of the resource itself is not affected, it's always there, and always will be. And there will always be someone to mine it, the ones that succeed in this are the ones who stick with it, skill up, tank their bloody Hulks (!) and learn to stay aligned between two on-grids whilst webbing each other to keep from drifting out of mining-gun range. There is nothing stopping a newbie mining-op from doing this--as long as they're in a player corporation, NPC "corpies" can't "agress" each other by webbing without CONCORDokken, IIRC--and plenty of knowledge out there to teach them why they should do so.



The price-increase comes as almost fully a result of CCP's removing Rogue Drone- and meta-0 drops from rats, and before by runaway ISK-faucet generation courtesy of Incursion ISK-farming. These faucets have now been plugged, and the market has self-corrected. It may be that a slight NPC bounty-buff is needed, but only with further loot-nerfs to fully balance it out. Time will tell.

What makes you think mining-ships are the only thing in demand? The demand is clearly being met, just at a different equilibrium point than before, because of the removal of said mineral-faucets, along with bot-bans. This is as it should be. You can make actual money mining again, and have minimal risk if you pay attention, tank your ship, and don't fly stupid-expensive PLEX-fund-baby loot-pinatas (Leave the--tanked!--Hulk for the nice grav-sites in 0.5/0.6).

Any newbie can learn this, the intro-tutorial even says straight out that losing ships is inevitable, and that one therefore shouldn't fly what one can't afford to replace. If a "newbie" is crying because he didn't tank his Hulk, got it smashed into junk, and now can't afford a replacement, then it's no-one's fault his corp's/op-group's leaders for not teaching him why he had no business being in the thing, even if he could board it. Oh, and a qualified Hulk/Mack pilot is not young enough to be a newbie, so he has no excuse there, sorry.



Again, there is no scarcity of supply in EVE. The only difference is the will to go and get it, and someone clearly is doing that--if less available supply, then more people see mining as worth doing, then more minerals come in more quickly from more miners, and the price should re-balance regardless. The ones who stay doing it, are the ones who are attentive and smart, and thus avoid getting ganked in almost all realistic cases.

EVE is harsh, and not exactly newb-friendly--no two ways around it--but there are many ways to work with this for newbies. The onus is on you to learn and make use of them, however, that's the main difference to other "softcore" MMOs.



The ones who adapt, who learn from their losses, and whom, most importantly, realise that it's ultimately just pixels in a dBase, these ones will. And they will be smarter about it, and probably not get ganked next time. And with the ISK/mineral-flooring faucets plugged up, will probably make a fortune in the process.

Adapt, or GTFO.

This has always been the core ethos of EVE, and it's worked just fine for 10 years.

Why should the increased overhead screw you as a crafter? You pass this price on to your customers, whom, as long as they need to replace their ships--not least of all their sui-gank ships--the loss of those is guaranteed, successful gank is not--then they will pay it.

the market will take care of itself. It always has. The community who "get" EVE will step up, and mitigate their risks by being smart about it. It always has.

EVE would not have lasted 10 years, subscriptions would not have only grown year-by-year (exception, the Incarna debacle) if this weren't true.

Working as intended.

How about the part where mining ships require materials that could otherwise be used to build other ships? It's called opportunity cost, and once you make it to high school I recomend taking economics. It's a real eye opener.

It's not anyone I disagree with, its just this one guy REALY bothers me.

I refuse to play the Virgins game.. I'd most likely get men

Also, yes M*A*S*H is one of the best; my box-set of it is the only reason I still vaguely think well of an ex-girlfriend.