These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Crime & Punishment

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Some dumb miners just don't learn

Author
Tiamet Cordova
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-07-25 08:31:20 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Tiamet Cordova wrote:
So this thread turned out to be a typical rollercoaster of fail.... It started with someone patting himself on the back over a silly suicide gank or 2 or 4 and quickly turned into a freshman retreat pissing match.


Relatively new to Eve I've learned one thing that the ganked seemed to know and the proud ganker hasn't figured out
(any ship you fly will get popped eventually) if you mine... you will lose ships much more often.

The hulk pilot returned to the spot he was ganked for a reason. The %'s game. Mining with 2 hulks will net some serious $$ over a large stretch of hours. Believe it or not... he more than likely has paid for those hulks 10 times over from doing just what he did. Return to the belt and start his operation back up. At some point the obnoxious grief hungry belt roaming parasites will get bored and find something else to do....


As long as anyone who is mining is smart enough to not let a scuicide gank scare them away from asteroid belts you will nearly ALWAYS come out positive on the $$ side of the equation (lose a ship or two or not)

Maybe ill get popped tomorrow... chances are however probably not... The reason the system works is there will be many more days where you mine freely and rake in ore to vastly outrank your losses in random isolated gank/shiplosses....


an isolated hulk gank being celebrated by a few t1 alts or bored griefers is like a losing team scoring a touchdown at the end of a Blow out football game... then rushing the field and tearing down the goalpost to celebrate their "score"

You may want to go check your math again. Hulks are incredibly expensive. And ore (especialy highsec ore) isn't that great in terms of income.


Actually my math is pretty spot on.... right now even high sec ore for instance pyro is about 4 million or so per can even if the hulk pilot is unskilled and only filling up a can every 10 minutes you'd need somewhere between 85-95 cans of raw ore (less if refined) to cover a lost hulk...


Anyone getting ganked may lose a hulk..losing 2 in a week is rare...3 in even more rare... I don't know many people who can say "I lose a hulk once a week"

While losing hulks is costly(roughly 15 hours of mining the cheapest ore for unrefined raw sale) You will still come out ahead...any serious miner is clocking up 2-3 hours a day 4-5 days a week with low skills,not refining the ore and no bonuses you will still net about 300 mill or so a week.... basically a hulk lost can be recouped in a death free week. How do i know? Because I've lost a ship or two and I know exactly what it sets me back.....

keep in mind I've completely ignored the fact that

enhanced skills
crystals
Foreman Bonuses
Refining
Mining other more lucrative ores

All skyrocket the isk income of a hulk miner.

losing a hulk is certainly not the end or the world. No tears to drink here I appoligize :(

Now I'm sure someone will be eager to pick apart my opinion and go "super ultra forum rebuttal" combo on my rough math and that's ok... I'm perfectly fine with agreeing to disagree.... most hulk pilots understand their isk income and how long it would take to replace the lost isk in losing a hulk... (usualy just a day or two)

fly safe :)
Dan Carter Murray
#182 - 2012-07-25 10:25:19 UTC
Daemon Ceed wrote:
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
Infidel 1 & 2 in the "Chapter 1" are the same kill. Might want to edit for full bragging.


Fixed!


Help rid he's of miners.

Please bring cynabals and dramiels for orca.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com

Daemon Ceed
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#183 - 2012-07-25 10:44:33 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
Daemon Ceed wrote:
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
Infidel 1 & 2 in the "Chapter 1" are the same kill. Might want to edit for full bragging.


Fixed!


Help rid he's of miners.

Please bring cynabals and dramiels for orca.



I'm not really sure how to respond to that, so I'm just going to leave this....here: http://farm1.staticflickr.com/97/252849242_373d779ccd.jpg
Elias Greyhand
#184 - 2012-07-25 12:49:46 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:

Why not?

Suicide is painless, after allBlink


One question asked on Yahoo Questions: "Safest Way To Commit Suicide" - you just reminded me of that Big smile

"That which is done cannot be undone. But it can be avenged."

Dan Carter Murray
#185 - 2012-07-25 20:19:14 UTC
Daemon Ceed wrote:
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
Daemon Ceed wrote:
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
Infidel 1 & 2 in the "Chapter 1" are the same kill. Might want to edit for full bragging.


Fixed!


Help rid he's of miners.

Please bring cynabals and dramiels for orca.



I'm not really sure how to respond to that, so I'm just going to leave this....here: http://farm1.staticflickr.com/97/252849242_373d779ccd.jpg


Stupid auto correct.... EHA....COME TO EHA... MINERS ARE HERE IN EHA....BRING CYNABALS AND DRAMIELS TOFIGHT THE MINERS IN EHA

Interesting. Nothing gets auto corrected when using caps lock

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com

Daemon Ceed
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#186 - 2012-07-25 21:50:26 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:


Stupid auto correct.... EHA....COME TO EHA... MINERS ARE HERE IN EHA....BRING CYNABALS AND DRAMIELS TOFIGHT THE MINERS IN EHA

Interesting. Nothing gets auto corrected when using caps lock


Riiiight, because we all use pirate faction frigs and cruisers to kill miners. I see through your plan ;)
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-07-26 03:35:24 UTC
Daemon Ceed wrote:
Dan Carter Murray wrote:


Stupid auto correct.... EHA....COME TO EHA... MINERS ARE HERE IN EHA....BRING CYNABALS AND DRAMIELS TOFIGHT THE MINERS IN EHA

Interesting. Nothing gets auto corrected when using caps lock


Riiiight, because we all use pirate faction frigs and cruisers to kill miners. I see through your plan ;)

Real men gank with alpha vargurs.
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#188 - 2012-07-27 07:28:36 UTC
Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
[Sorceror Majiir] What's getting blown up are miners, often new player miners.. you know, those guys that are supplying the raw materials to your manufacturers to meet demand. So it is supply that is affected, the only increase in demand will be on mining ships... maybe, assuming they don't say - C ya. So now's there's a decrease in supply hence an increase in raw material prices..hence an increase in prices for manufactured goods.

Look on Battleclinic, bru:

Most kills are still of war-ships, not mining ships.

The supply of the resource itself is not affected, it's always there, and always will be. And there will always be someone to mine it



Ok, you failed to read what I said. I said the only increase in demand will be on mining ships... keyword increase. Demand right now already has built in all the other ships getting destroyed and needing replacement. If perps focus on miners due to new and improved cats then there is a surge in hulks (and other mining ships) lost.. all the other kills stay the same. Hence you have focused on killing a supplier of raw minerals. The notion of supply being unaffected is like saying there's not a drought in the US because there's plenty of water in the ocean. Minerals have to be extracted from rocks, they don't just land on the market.

Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:

[Sorceror Majiir] Ummm no, if miners are not blown up and demand stayed roughly the same, then supply would tend to meet demand and the price would trend to equilibrium. Since we're only talking about a change in demand of mining ships, the real impact isn't this small demand increase but rather the loss of supply of raw minerals with a near steady demand, hence you have a price increase in HS. Which we've seen.

The price-increase comes as almost fully a result of CCP's removing Rogue Drone- and meta-0 drops from rats, and before by runaway ISK-faucet generation courtesy of Incursion ISK-farming. These faucets have now been plugged, and the market has self-corrected. It may be that a slight NPC bounty-buff is needed, but only with further loot-nerfs to fully balance it out. Time will tell.


I haven't seen data on this.

Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:
What makes you think mining-ships are the only thing in demand?


That's not what I said.. read above.

Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:

[Sorceror Majiir] Ummm no, blowing up mining ships isn't significantly changing your overall demand, it's impacting your supply, creating a scarcity in raw minerals.

Again, there is no scarcity of supply in EVE.



Again, read above, I answered this.

Tarryn Nightstorm wrote:

[Sorceror Majiir] No kidding, yeah I bet those miners can't wait to get out there and get splashed into atoms again.

Adapt, or GTFO.


You don't sound that stupid. You don't think a lot of these people will LEAVE THE GAME. I'm having a hard time seeing how that's a good thing, usually businesses want to retain customers.

Actually, I think they have barely managed to keep it afloat, mostly through what, 16 free major content rollouts to try to keep customers interested? Game design is no walk in the park, granted. Keeping a game alive for 9 years is not easy either. Think for a moment, how many new gamers do you think Eve has lost in 9 years due to this gank crap in HS. I'd guess 1/2 a million as a bare minimum. And if they made it possible for a younger crowd to play, maybe several million new players might come in. Personally I love this game, always have, but people have left this game in droves. Just sayin

Well now I remember why I hate quotes and message boards.. a great time waster.


Charlie Crocodile
Sorfus Morfus
#189 - 2012-07-27 10:08:51 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:


Think for a moment, how many new gamers do you think Eve has lost in 9 years due to this gank crap in HS. I'd guess 1/2 a million as a bare minimum.Shocked And if they made it possible for a younger crowd to play, maybe several million new players might come in.


Just to clarify, you think there have been five hundred thousand people around the world that have emoragequit internet spaceships after being surprise butsecsed in hi-sec while they were mining?

Any evidence to support that?

Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#190 - 2012-07-27 11:19:33 UTC
Charlie Crocodile wrote:
Sorceror Majiir wrote:


Think for a moment, how many new gamers do you think Eve has lost in 9 years due to this gank crap in HS. I'd guess 1/2 a million as a bare minimum.Shocked And if they made it possible for a younger crowd to play, maybe several million new players might come in.


Just to clarify, you think there have been five hundred thousand people around the world that have emoragequit internet spaceships after being surprise butsecsed in hi-sec while they were mining?

Any evidence to support that?



He won't have evidence, that guy is a troll who posts 'facts' to get a reaction. Ignore him.
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#191 - 2012-07-27 22:08:18 UTC
Charlie Crocodile wrote:
Sorceror Majiir wrote:


Think for a moment, how many new gamers do you think Eve has lost in 9 years due to this gank crap in HS. I'd guess 1/2 a million as a bare minimum.Shocked And if they made it possible for a younger crowd to play, maybe several million new players might come in.


Just to clarify, you think there have been five hundred thousand people around the world that have emoragequit internet spaceships after being surprise butsecsed in hi-sec while they were mining?

Any evidence to support that?




I said I'd guess. The guess is based on my family, friends, corps mates, and peers who have left the game over the years. Actually, If I used those numbers as a reference the loss would be 2x to 3x what I quoted. A reasonable benchmark would be industry growth versus captured market share by Eve.. now there's a real eyeopener if you know how to interpret such things.
Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#192 - 2012-07-27 22:11:39 UTC

Danks:

Clearly your upset that my unsupported facts, ie from memory, are just as good as your unsupported facts, from your memory.
Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#193 - 2012-07-27 23:27:46 UTC
Sorceror Majiir wrote:

Danks:

Clearly your upset that my unsupported facts, ie from memory, are just as good as your unsupported facts, from your memory.



When your facts are 1) that ganking used not to be possible in high sec and 2) half a million people have given eve a try and quit then I'm going to laugh and call you a troll.
Xylorn Hasher
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#194 - 2012-07-28 00:45:05 UTC
"Some dumb miners just don't learn"

I confirm.

All my posts are made shortly after Marihuana consumption.

Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-07-28 02:20:33 UTC
Danks wrote:
Sorceror Majiir wrote:

Danks:

Clearly your upset that my unsupported facts, ie from memory, are just as good as your unsupported facts, from your memory.



When your facts are 1) that ganking used not to be possible in high sec and 2) half a million people have given eve a try and quit then I'm going to laugh and call you a troll.

Checked through ALL of the patch notes since eve launched (I have no life) and not one of them makes a mention of anything remotely resembling "CONCORD no longer instapops you for agressing in highsec" or "ganking is now possible in highsec".
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#196 - 2012-07-28 05:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
OK, all you whining whiny little whine-guys:

You can stop now. (/Facedesk)

Get on SiSi and take a look at the new--massively EHP-buffed, except for the Covetor/Hulk--barges, and even they got a little.

I've spent the last two days testing extensively on my max-skill "co-main," and handsome Tarryn, here.

(My manu/Indi alt doesn't have the skills to fly the T II versions, so no comment there--Mining Barge 5 only as per-requisite for the Orca, because those are just so incredibly versatile and usefulTwisted)

The Covi/Hulk is still solo-gankable in 0.5/0.6 with decent-ish skills in an AlphaToro, but the others? **** no.

The Retriever can be solo-ganked in a 0.5 with the AlphaToro with max'ed skills, T II guns, and hope he doesn't shore up his Kinetic hole (with 2 EM/1 Thermic resist rig), as you need Quake ammo, as well as a power-grid rig to fit the T II Arty that can use it. That's the only Minmatar proj-gun ammo that has a large enough Kinetic damage component, that I can see. So, very expensive, with guaranteed loss of the ship.

If he does use a Kinetic shield-hardener, then Explosive or Thermic/EM will be the right damage type, so Quake still works there--assuming he's shield-tanked of course, no reason he wouldn't be that I can see. The Procurer, however, is the only one that has the slots for this (Just one mid on the other two, and not enough grid for an MSE II).

Testing on SiSi with Tarryns' lower skills -- even with just an SSE II in the mid, DCU II in a low, and the ususal resist-rigs -- I couldn't quite finish the Retriever in a 0.5, even with expensive-on-TQ meta-4 guns, and what on TQ would be some extremely expensive Hardwiring implants.

About that Procurer -- cannot be solo-ganked at all if even lightly tanked, with any real tank, forget it (typical shield-buff Drake-level EHP with 45% less signature-radius).

There you go:

You got what you wanted, you refused to adapt -- a properly tanked Hulk whose pilot is even halfway awake cannot profitably be ganked if you use brain -- but just spent years bleating like sheep being led to the fleecing, and it's worked.

CCP has now all but admitted that they want to protect idiots from themselves, because they, by now, probably are not sure that people are willing to do it themselves anymore.

So, my dear gankers:

Bring mates.

And bring Kinetics and/or Explosive. Lots of it!

I should hope that the "less-savoury" demographic of EVE will get a corresponding massive buff in balance to this.

They could start by:

1) Un-nerfing ninja-salvaging in general, it's on life-support at present--One of the only decent ways for a newbie to make money in a way that involves player interaction with potential un-predictable PvP*, and gives the newbie probing, d-scanning, and ship-fitting skills and experience that will be of huge merit for the life of the character.

2) Reverting the hard patch-out of the Orca hot-swap under aggro -- which is only applied in hisec to Orcas, not, you will note, to Orcas and carriers in losec/nullsec playing the exact same idiotic lamer's game.

3) Allow covert cynos to be lit, and bridging-to same in hisec, as well as allowing Stealth Bomber bombs in 0.1+ rated space (yes, hisec too).

4) Institute a legal way to have a chance of escaping CONCORD -- vanishingly small possibility of course, but should still be at least theoretically possible, and 100% legit if successful.

I was going to multi-snip and multi-quote the carebear troll above me, but sorry, just can't be arsed at the moment, too much like work. You'll keep for now though, troll, not to worry.

Well, except for one thing:

If the "younger" generation of players are all as horrid, over-entitled, brainless whiners as seems apparent, then no--CCP doesn't need them. Because EVE will ceasse to be what's made it so successful over 10 years, and has only grown, for the most part.

*Hisec is arguably the potential biggest "sandbox," PvP-wise because you never know quite what form it's going to take, or who's going to be bringing it.

Don't even mention nullsec -- that is a semi-consensual battleground for 1337-epeen strokers and drama-lama no-lifers--half of whom are probably botting and/or RMT'ing, and most of whom definitely are complete douchebags who take a freaking video-game far, far more seriously than any reasonably-adjusted adult should--which most of us want absolutely nothing to do with.

Look, bru:

This game has always been intended for mature people. We get it. Those who don't, don't matter, and are neither wanted nor welcome here.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#197 - 2012-07-28 06:55:05 UTC
The above post does not really sound as much "mature" as it self proclaims to be.
The e-raging and battle standard swinging for a crusade too is something to leave to the 16 olds.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#198 - 2012-07-28 06:59:22 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The above post does not really sound as much "mature" as it self proclaims to be.
The e-raging and battle standard swinging for a crusade too is something to leave to the 16 olds.


Where am I e-raging, exactly?

I simply state facts.

Everyone who knows and gets EVE, knows this.

1/10, come on, I know you can do better than that Roll

Next!

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#199 - 2012-07-28 08:19:16 UTC
Danks wrote:
Sorceror Majiir wrote:

Danks:

Clearly your upset that my unsupported facts, ie from memory, are just as good as your unsupported facts, from your memory.



When your facts are 1) that ganking used not to be possible in high sec and 2) half a million people have given eve a try and quit then I'm going to laugh and call you a troll.


Yeah Danks, I'll stick to both those statements.

On the bright side, I just signed up for the Dust beta, made it through the general part, perhaps due to the fact I've played the game since week 2 :) .. and heh, it's looks purty cool. Kudo's to Eve for getting a planetside game.


Sorceror Majiir
Doomheim
#200 - 2012-07-28 08:31:55 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Danks wrote:
Sorceror Majiir wrote:

Danks:

Clearly your upset that my unsupported facts, ie from memory, are just as good as your unsupported facts, from your memory.



When your facts are 1) that ganking used not to be possible in high sec and 2) half a million people have given eve a try and quit then I'm going to laugh and call you a troll.

Checked through ALL of the patch notes since eve launched (I have no life) and not one of them makes a mention of anything remotely resembling "CONCORD no longer instapops you for agressing in highsec" or "ganking is now possible in highsec".



lol, geesus Astro, get some sleep dude. As I told Danks, I was there, we tried, didn't work, end of story. This was early in the game, seems like before MOO made their push into Core systems, before the KK, etc. though that's a long time ago to try to piece together a lot of details and I don't recall other game events around this time. I guess the reason it stuck in my mind is I didn't even see the shot hit the target and it was kinda disappointing at the time. We weren't doing anything fancy, just 1 vs 1. There was no measurable time between me firing and taking massive damage and popping. Just sayin, that's how it happened.. you don't like.. too bad.