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Summer OTA changes

First post
Author
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#61 - 2012-07-15 14:02:52 UTC
Jakerien Pahaydan wrote:
Hi,
"we didn't want to make you wait for the OTA changes". The recent rollback was insignificant IMO, too little and already too late. Does CCP think the end of summer is not waiting? Your patient is beyond critical condition. Go ahead and wait to start CPR in late summer. Vanguards will be long dead and buried by then. Sad

i hereby predict that incursion traffic will be at least 50% of what it was before the nerf on the same day the ota changes are patched onto tranquillity.

I should buy an Ishtar.

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#62 - 2012-07-16 07:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Daniel Plain wrote:
Jakerien Pahaydan wrote:
Hi,
"we didn't want to make you wait for the OTA changes". The recent rollback was insignificant IMO, too little and already too late. Does CCP think the end of summer is not waiting? Your patient is beyond critical condition. Go ahead and wait to start CPR in late summer. Vanguards will be long dead and buried by then. Sad

i hereby predict that incursion traffic will be at least 50% of what it was before the nerf on the same day the ota changes are patched onto tranquillity.


I doubt your prediction will be provable anytime soon. Dr E seems to be the only one at CPP that would give out the stats if anything is going wrong and he rarely speaks. The last fanfest he proclaimed that Incursions were an unprecented success.
He was even owning up to the Incarna release being unsuccessful at fanfest. I'm curious what he'll say about the stats post Escalation and Inferno.
Usually CCP Diagoras can be counted on to give some game stats but he has been silent ( silenced? ) ever since his return from vacation.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-07-16 12:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Ronin
Meow :Edited:


Ok dude, We get the point, It happened in May, CCP are only Humans, Regarding how Incursions have lost interest is due to the fact that CCP brought them into the game to bring People and community's to play as one, They were not aware of the amount of ISK that could be made by someone who is dual-boxing.

Give CCP some credit, They got to look at your pathetic posts which are just a grind to read, They are aware of the error and are currently fixing it, So please stop being a scrub.

You are so focused on "Predictions" and statistics, How about the Facts, Are you aware you can still earn 80 mill per hour, If you are crying then GTFO out of BTL and TVP and join a community like ISN.


What i find hilarious is ISN - Incursion Shiny Network are the only community which are not crying, Yes its a bit **** but 100 mill a hour, is still good. I think you need to take a step back and learn how to Adapt, For you have failed and resorted to posting complete bollocks on the forums.

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#64 - 2012-07-16 20:41:52 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Herr Ronin wrote:
Meow :Edited:


Ok dude, We get the point, It happened in May, CCP are only Humans,
(snip)


You are so focused on "Predictions" and statistics, How about the Facts, Are you aware you can still earn 80 mill per hour, If you are crying then GTFO out of BTL and TVP and join a community like ISN.
(snip)

What i find hilarious is ISN - Incursion Shiny Network are the only community which are not crying,


-Happened last April not May
-By definition statistics are numeric facts
-HQ's were less touched by the change then the other systems. I bet if CCP touched your part of the doll in the same manner you'd be crying too.

In other news:
Damn looks like the Ewoks NULL sec Incursion died without them doing the MOM site:
2012.07.16 13:14:26 Incursion expired 0 0 LP pool lost

I think they got the influence all the way down to ~20% closest since April 22 I've seen a Null/lo constellation get to spotting the mother ship. Last night before DT it was a Wall of OTAs

FYI Ronin you forgot to bump page 13 of your ISN thread with its wall of text ad to grind through while reading P
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-07-17 00:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Ronin
DarthNefarius wrote:
Herr Ronin wrote:
Meow :Edited:


Ok dude, We get the point, It happened in May, CCP are only Humans,
(snip)


You are so focused on "Predictions" and statistics, How about the Facts, Are you aware you can still earn 80 mill per hour, If you are crying then GTFO out of BTL and TVP and join a community like ISN.
(snip)

What i find hilarious is ISN - Incursion Shiny Network are the only community which are not crying,


-Happened last April not May
-By definition statistics are numeric facts
-HQ's were less touched by the change then the other systems. I bet if CCP touched your part of the doll in the same manner you'd be crying too.

In other news:
Damn looks like the Ewoks NULL sec Incursion died without them doing the MOM site:
2012.07.16 13:14:26 Incursion expired 0 0 LP pool lost

I think they got the influence all the way down to ~20% closest since April 22 I've seen a Null/lo constellation get to spotting the mother ship. Last night before DT it was a Wall of OTAs

FYI Ronin you forgot to bump page 13 of your ISN thread with its wall of text ad to grind through while reading P



Thank you for taking the time in reading our Thread.

Regards

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear

Jena Jamson
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-07-19 18:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jena Jamson
vgs were fine before the whole nerf thing. sure you make lots of isk, but only if you have a good fleet composition with good skills. and if there were more than 1 good fleet in a system, they will compete and only the best fleet will get the isk. pub fleets dont stand a chance, they dont make as much. i suggest ccp stop listening to jealous null sec players. btl pub is like a ghost town now, thanks to the nerf. community destroyed, well done well done ccp...
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2012-07-19 21:20:00 UTC
Jena Jamson wrote:
vgs were fine before the whole nerf thing. sure you make lots of isk, but only if you have a good fleet composition with good skills. and if there were more than 1 good fleet in a system, they will compete and only the best fleet will get the isk. pub fleets dont stand a chance, they dont make as much. i suggest ccp stop listening to jealous null sec players. btl pub is like a ghost town now, thanks to the nerf. community destroyed, well done well done ccp...



Yes a lot of community's have died, For they lack the ability to Adapt to the patch, It isn't CCP's fault they lack the brain power to work out how to do sites faster or get a better fleet comp.

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#68 - 2012-07-20 05:23:50 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Herr Ronin wrote:
Jena Jamson wrote:
vgs were fine before the whole nerf thing. sure you make lots of isk, but only if you have a good fleet composition with good skills. and if there were more than 1 good fleet in a system, they will compete and only the best fleet will get the isk. pub fleets dont stand a chance, they dont make as much. i suggest ccp stop listening to jealous null sec players. btl pub is like a ghost town now, thanks to the nerf. community destroyed, well done well done ccp...



Yes a lot of community's have died, For they lack the ability to Adapt to the patch, It isn't CCP's fault they lack the brain power to work out how to do sites faster or get a better fleet comp.


I'm sorry but the UTTER collapse of the null/lo sec incursions being run ( not a single null/lo sec MOM site has been run/finished since the Escalation NERF last April 24th) is an indicator that CCP fell asleep at the wheel with the monitoring/QA of Incursions Ronin and should have been addressed ALOT sooner.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#69 - 2012-07-20 08:10:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Forum ate my post!

@Herr Ronin

Tailoring the content for both pirate BS with T2 guns and low skill T1 BS and BC is impossible. If the ISK for bad fleet is decent, ISK for great one will be probably to high, and if the site is safe for bad fleet, really good one will have it on ez-mode. OTAs are completely safe in a good fleet even now, but its the lesser fleets that can have a hard time.

In WoW we have that as player can be inspected for gear and spec so we can really know what a player is bringing to the raid. Also, there is raid tier system, entry level raids arent the same as the top raids available. There are hard modes of raids too, which give much better rewards.

Much of this can be implemented in Eve (if permission is given FC could have access to your ship fitting window, skills, and relevant weapon and defense stats), hard modes could exist as separate systems in incursion with hard mode raids and even raid tier system could be implemented (by having different active incursions in different tiers), but I digress from the topic.
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#70 - 2012-07-20 08:48:16 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Forum ate my post!

@Herr Ronin

Tailoring the content for both pirate BS with T2 guns and low skill T1 BS and BC is impossible. If the ISK for bad fleet is decent, ISK for great one will be probably to high, and if the site is safe for bad fleet, really good one will have it on ez-mode. OTAs are completely safe in a good fleet even now, but its the lesser fleets that can have a hard time.

In WoW we have that as player can be inspected for gear and spec so we can really know what a player is bringing to the raid. Also, there is raid tier system, entry level raids arent the same as the top raids available. There are hard modes of raids too, which give much better rewards.

Much of this can be implemented in Eve (if permission is given FC could have access to your ship fitting window, skills, and relevant weapon and defense stats), hard modes could exist as separate systems in incursion with hard mode raids and even raid tier system could be implemented (by having different active incursions in different tiers), but I digress from the topic.



No .
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#71 - 2012-07-20 09:10:30 UTC
Kodavor wrote:

No .


What exactly do you mean? You realize its impossible to balance the content fro both 1b ships and those T1 BS and BC, and that newbies that cant buy a Machariel/NM/Vindi rightfully expect to be able to raid too? And that is essentially problem with OTAs and that was the problem with old VGs too (in the beginning before blitzing Drakes Canes and Harbies were used, and ISK/hr wasnt so imbalanced).
Felicity Barrington
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2012-07-20 09:52:12 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Kodavor wrote:

No .


What exactly do you mean? You realize its impossible to balance the content fro both 1b ships and those T1 BS and BC, and that newbies that cant buy a Machariel/NM/Vindi rightfully expect to be able to raid too? And that is essentially problem with OTAs and that was the problem with old VGs too (in the beginning before blitzing Drakes Canes and Harbies were used, and ISK/hr wasnt so imbalanced).


Maelstrom, T2 guns (Meta if not) will get you into good fleets.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#73 - 2012-07-20 10:00:05 UTC
Felicity Barrington wrote:
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Kodavor wrote:

No .


What exactly do you mean? You realize its impossible to balance the content fro both 1b ships and those T1 BS and BC, and that newbies that cant buy a Machariel/NM/Vindi rightfully expect to be able to raid too? And that is essentially problem with OTAs and that was the problem with old VGs too (in the beginning before blitzing Drakes Canes and Harbies were used, and ISK/hr wasnt so imbalanced).


Maelstrom, T2 guns (Meta if not) will get you into good fleets.


Well not good enough by my standards. Its a difference betwen 100M ISK/hr in VGs (6 minutes OTA with warp-in warp out, so its 6m between wallet blinks in journal, NMC/NCO take less) and running HQs for 1 site each 40-45m because ppl need to afk/bio/fit AB/whatever.
Felicity Barrington
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2012-07-20 10:20:05 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Felicity Barrington wrote:
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Kodavor wrote:

No .


What exactly do you mean? You realize its impossible to balance the content fro both 1b ships and those T1 BS and BC, and that newbies that cant buy a Machariel/NM/Vindi rightfully expect to be able to raid too? And that is essentially problem with OTAs and that was the problem with old VGs too (in the beginning before blitzing Drakes Canes and Harbies were used, and ISK/hr wasnt so imbalanced).


Maelstrom, T2 guns (Meta if not) will get you into good fleets.


Well not good enough by my standards. Its a difference betwen 100M ISK/hr in VGs (6 minutes OTA with warp-in warp out, so its 6m between wallet blinks in journal, NMC/NCO take less) and running HQs for 1 site each 40-45m because ppl need to afk/bio/fit AB/whatever.


I know of a shiney group which will let one Maelstrom in with T2's and it doesn't affect the 6m OTA's.
They have helped many people get isk for pirate and faction goodies.

If CCP really wanted to stop certain ship types, they could do it via the gate, they do in missions, they can do it in incursions.
Aratani
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-07-20 21:27:15 UTC
Herr Ronin wrote:
Yes a lot of community's have died, For they lack the ability to Adapt to the patch, It isn't CCP's fault they lack the brain power to work out how to do sites faster or get a better fleet comp.


If your view of "adapting to the patch" is everyone suddenly receiving 5-10 million more skillpoints to be able to fly with the standards ISN does, you really seem to need a reality check on the game's training times.

Most of your replies make this same moot point of "adapting" which seems to be "Get into pirate faction ships with t2 guns and everything's fine and dandy, you only make 20% less of what you did pre-patch in average ships".

The problem is right now even with the OTA fixes coming in, there's way too much EHP on field in all of the vanguard sites to be completed in realistically profitable timeframes for the low-average skilled pilots to make much more than solo level 4's do, which is simply a ******** situation considering the effort group gameplay requires over solo-content, high-sec or not. Either the EHP, spawn triggers or site rewards need to be changed or tuned up for incursions to become meaningful content instead of the ghost towns the systems are now.
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-07-20 22:32:05 UTC
Hey there, stop a little moment.

I'm fairly a new character (this is an alt) with +/- 30 mil skill points on 1, +/- 25 mil on second char.
Made my way (on both accounts) mining, missioning, Worm Holes, PI, exploring, hauling, trading............ and after this "searching my way" into eve after 1 1/2 YEAR i'm finally getting into Incursions.
Logistic ships ain't so hard to train for and also needed in those fleets. While using those I make ISK and have time to train for the shiny faction BS'ses.
Maybe we better ask CCP for Incursion site's that can be done with 5/7 BC's between Scout and Vanguard site's.
Scout site, can be done with many ships playing alone, reward 50.000isk/50 LP (5 players max)
Next level:
Vanguards, can be done with 6? 7? 8? but sure with 10 - 12 players, reward somewhere 12 á 8 mil isk/ +1000LP.
Assoults as next group, 17? 18? but sure with 19 players, reward 18à20 mil/ LP accordingly.
HQ, only did 1, yes "That One", xx players xxx reward in ISK/LP.

So, I think about it this way:
Scout sites, ok the way it is now.
New kinda sites, restricted to cruiser size ships max 8, reward 3-5 mil isk/ LP accordingly.
Vanguards, restricted to BC sized ships and BS T1 (not faction), al sort of VG site more equal qua difficulty, reward a little lowered.
Assaults as is now, HQ too..................

Just my 2 cents,
All can play Incursion then...............
Learn and adapt..

But most of all: Have fun!
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#77 - 2012-07-20 23:16:18 UTC
Hey you cant run incursions without cruisers to take care of the frigates. By the way balancing in Eve dont work by the ship size at all, and proposing it dont make sense, just look how T2/T3 and some faction ships compare to bigger T1 ships.
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-07-21 23:17:43 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Hey you cant run incursions without cruisers to take care of the frigates. By the way balancing in Eve dont work by the ship size at all, and proposing it dont make sense, just look how T2/T3 and some faction ships compare to bigger T1 ships.

And where is ur proposal that makes sense?What?
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#79 - 2012-07-22 01:28:50 UTC
Ok so does this really make sense to anyone?

I keep hearing the constant complaint that ‘OTA’s are too hard’ and that the communities that do run them are ’Elitists that don’t let anyone in their fleet’ If these two item are true then

How are they running them? And, how did they form a fleet if they don’t let anyone in?

First lets go with how.
It is done with a focused specialized fleet with the proper balance of range, firepower, and logistics. These types of fleets can be found throughout Eve often in Wormholes doing sleeper sites, In low-sec and Nul-sec doing complexes and other sites, even in high sec doing Lvl4 missions. Always with an FC or player that knows exactly what he is going to run into, and how he is going to deal with it. These ideas are not new they are called foresight, and planning. If you can’t bring a ship and Toon with the proper skills and fittings to any of these aforementioned sites you get to warp out in a Pod and try again after you replace your badly fitted ship, or get some more time done in your training.

Where do they get the fleet members for these fleets?
Simple they are all over the place, often times looking for a group they can trust, more importantly an FC they can trust to require all the other members of the fleet be their equal in skills, skills like ‘Battleship -5’, ‘large artillery specialization 5’, and ‘Logistics 5’ pilots with the perseverance to train these skills, not deviate for the ‘Whim of the day skill Que’ many players choose to adopt.

The average lvl4 mission runner knows if he can successfully tank ‘World Collide’ if not he brings friends, or asks for help from someone that can do it. Most just decline it and go back to lvl3 missions till his skills and ship can handle it. This is an example of the foresight and planning we spoke of earlier. Yet for some reason ‘scrub’ Incursion runners think these rules are arbitrary and should not apply to them.

Would I like the ‘OTA’s’ made easier? Yes I would. But ideally I think the primary problem is the idea that if your crap fit ship can’t do it, it must be to hard. This problem is exacerbated by the ‘scrub’ fleets doing HQ sites, this essentially gives the impression that “if I can do this ‘HQ’s’ then I should be able to do those ‘VG’s’.” As any lvl4 mission runner can tell you the lvl4 ‘Cargo Delivery’ can be successfully done in a shuttle but that doesn’t mean a Noob is ready to solo ‘Dread Pirate Scarlet’.

End result is that fixing Incursions is only 10% CCP and 90% the player’s job. Get in the right ship, in the right site, with the right fleet. Stop worrying about the ISK the other player is making with a 40mil sp Toon and a 4 billion ISK faction fit BS. He is probably losing ISK when compared to other things he could invest the same amount of ISK in. IE; a Ninja site runner in Nul can make 500 mil in an hour with 300 mil invested in ship. A ‘shiny’ incursion runner is lucky to make 500 mil in a day with over 2 billion in a modest ship.

I guess the long winded speech was unnecessary. Simply put if you can’t do these sites you are doing the site wrong, NOT that the site is wrong. Or that the other guys are cheating.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Jude Nova
ICU Main Corp
#80 - 2012-07-22 03:36:27 UTC
Wow, Much debate..

Not that i like to agree with ISN people, But i must admit that ISN in this case is spot on.
Im Owner of a small community called "ICU", And we focus on nothing but Vanguards.
Why..?... Because we still belive that these are the most profitable and "LESS" risk in terms of losing a ship.
And i must point out that at "ICU" we "LOVE" OTA's... Why ???....
Because we know how to run them properly.
Belive it or not but like ISN we also hit 100m per hour( even with a mael or 2 P ), And yes we do run shiney, But this is only a bonus. Do we take non-shiney ships ?... Yes.! ..... Do we require our members to fly shiney ships with shiney mods?...No.... Its a bonus if they do, And anyway running with us has made billions for our members and they LIKE to improve there ships.!

If you made x amount of isk in mission's wouldnt you WANT to improve its fitting to make that mission go quicker ?
Same rules apply for Incursions!

Are OTA's easy ??.... Yes.. we run 2 Basi and 8 DPS and still make 100m per hour.! Shocked
There's no secret to it... Wanna know ??? Convo me or join our channel. (Incursion United).

(I dont mean to make above sound like a recruitment add but im just pointing out what Vanguard communitys can do... in this case...us at ICU)

But anyway.... While i agree alot with ISN i understand both sides of the coin and can confirm that BTL and the like have become ghost towns, But will i blame CCP for "nerfing" Vanguards?? No!!!..
I cant belive there is soo much crap going on with people saying i wish they didnt nerf the Vanguards because we loved making 150m per hour running OTA's in under 2 mins... Come on people wake up and understand that the changes i think are actually better and still best for Isk ratio compared to Assault and HQ.... (Assaults and HQ stop and start many times).


Sorry to go on its very late but i hope ther eis a point in everything i was saying Shocked
Fly safe guys and spread the word that there are still many Vanguard Communitys out there, You just need to look for them or Stand up and make one for yourself like i did 6 months ago!.