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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Grow some extremely durable genitalia.

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#841 - 2012-06-12 22:20:17 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
You still mine, rat, or grind missions, but you no longer have that reassuring 'don't worry window". Now you wonder, so you hit d-scan, or possibly they add in a means to automate it.
Every time it pulses or updates, it becomes your security assurance. You need to see it clear, or you know you have a problem.

Which gives you a maximum of 4-6 seconds before that intel is obsolete, which means that's almost all you do, scan and stare, scan and stare, scan and stare. And miss for those 4-6 seconds at exactly the wrong time, and you're caught.

So, would you rather be in high sec with a laundry list of worthless intel, persistently present and pointless to watch unless you have somehow been war decced?

Or taking a chance, knowing you did have to ping every few seconds, (if not automated, they could do this if they wanted to).
But if you did see something, it would be worth reacting to, because the chances of it being a false alarm are greatly reduced now.

Quality over quantity. I tend to lean towards the quality side more myself.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#842 - 2012-06-12 22:56:16 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
So, would you rather be in high sec with a laundry list of worthless intel, persistently present and pointless to watch unless you have somehow been war decced?

If I had the option of making, say, 50-70 mill/hour in nullsec where I had to glare holes in the directional scanner lest I get ganked if I look away for 6 seconds, or I can make 40 mill/hour doing L4s in a place where I can downright ignore everyone and everything other than the agent, the travelroute to/from the mission and the red crosses I need to shoot, then uh ... yeah. I'd do L4s.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#843 - 2012-06-13 14:21:24 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
So, would you rather be in high sec with a laundry list of worthless intel, persistently present and pointless to watch unless you have somehow been war decced?

If I had the option of making, say, 50-70 mill/hour in nullsec where I had to glare holes in the directional scanner lest I get ganked if I look away for 6 seconds, or I can make 40 mill/hour doing L4s in a place where I can downright ignore everyone and everything other than the agent, the travelroute to/from the mission and the red crosses I need to shoot, then uh ... yeah. I'd do L4s.

I appreciate the idea that in some specific cases high sec is a carebear haven, as you described it.

If your ship is impractical to suicide gank, then it becomes equally unlikely you will hit a situation where you need to worry about it.

Now, a lot of people are flying questionable fit exhumers, in high sec, and encountering a bizarre phenomenon... Hulkageddon Infinitus.

This means for those who can fly ganking fits under 10 million isk in value, it doesn't matter if you get ANY loot or reward from the pilot you killed. Ole man Mittani is gonna pay you that bounty. Anything that drops is pure bonus.

That being said, local for these pilots alone is a broken crutch. They are better using their d-scan and ignoring local as the garbage it is to them. Sadly for them, however, the suicide crew see's it as a fast food menu, and they know a hulk can be at any one of the belts. They see enough in the list, they know it's harvest time!

The D-scan might warn if someone is checking nearby belts. Local will list every pilot in system, including those docked up in stations.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#844 - 2012-06-13 14:32:02 UTC
Tell me more about how you'll convince people in hisec to expend the energy to run a dscan, when they can't even look at the local window.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#845 - 2012-06-13 16:14:33 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Tell me more about how you'll convince people in hisec to expend the energy to run a dscan, when they can't even look at the local window.

The hi sec dilemma....
Some of them won't, and I do not pretend otherwise.

Some of them would definitely do this, if they understood how they could make an effort to survive that could make a difference.

The presence of local is a false hope, giving the second group an illusion that they already have all the intel they can use, and nothing they do could make a difference.

It is worse than no intel, it is BAD intel.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Frying Doom
#846 - 2012-07-10 08:33:57 UTC
Ideas that terrorize Nullbears also should not be hidden, it has 85 likes and even more nullbear tears.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#847 - 2012-07-10 08:36:09 UTC
I see it's the bi-weekly "I suck at PVP so I must whine about local" event again.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#848 - 2012-07-10 08:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Lord Zim wrote:
I see it's the bi-weekly "I suck at PVP so I must whine about local" event again.

Edit: While Goon tears may be nice, I would like to point out that there are very few threads in this section with as many likes as this.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#849 - 2012-07-10 13:48:52 UTC
Local being used for intel is the poster child for unintended use by players.

In what space epic worthy of recognition did the hero rely on a chat channel to warn him of the incoming waves of bad guys?

Local Chat is not your sensors. It is a magical short wave radio that not only lets you hear those near you, but be totally aware of everyone regardless of whether they are broadcasting at all.

If we are going to play this way, bring in the space orcs already....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Ned Black
Driders
#850 - 2012-07-11 07:05:16 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
So, would you rather be in high sec with a laundry list of worthless intel, persistently present and pointless to watch unless you have somehow been war decced?

If I had the option of making, say, 50-70 mill/hour in nullsec where I had to glare holes in the directional scanner lest I get ganked if I look away for 6 seconds, or I can make 40 mill/hour doing L4s in a place where I can downright ignore everyone and everything other than the agent, the travelroute to/from the mission and the red crosses I need to shoot, then uh ... yeah. I'd do L4s.


Well, if you dont have the balls to be out in nullsec unless you have local holding your hands then it sounds to me as if highsec is the right place for you...

Lord Zim wrote:
I see it's the bi-weekly "I suck at PVP so I must whine about local" event again.


And yet the one whining in just about every remove local thread I have seen is you... if wanting to make things harder makes us suck at PvP then what does whining about making things harder make you?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#851 - 2012-07-11 08:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Ned Black wrote:
Well, if you dont have the balls to be out in nullsec unless you have local holding your hands then it sounds to me as if highsec is the right place for you...

Missing the point, I see.

I've plenty balls, what I don't have is a tolerance for effort. Ratting or running anoms in nullsec takes effort, running L4s do not require effort and pay out almost just as well. I, and a fucktonne of other nullsec people, have already set about running L4s instead of running anoms in nullsec for this exact reason, which means that L4s are too lucrative and doing dumb things like removing local (without replacing it with something like, say, a module which can be incapped/hacked for x minutes and it stops registering people in that solar system) will just exacerbate this problem.

Which means we'd be back less than a week after this change had been implemented, with the same pvpbears whining about how there's nobody at all to shoot, and going "what'chu talkin' 'bout willis?" when we point out that a vast majority of those who cared enough about isk efficiency to deal with the extra work of keeping safe without local, have either moved back to hisec to farm L4s or promoted themselves to full-on WH residency.

Ned Black wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
I see it's the bi-weekly "I suck at PVP so I must whine about local" event again.


And yet the one whining in just about every remove local thread I have seen is you... if wanting to make things harder makes us suck at PvP then what does whining about making things harder make you?

I'm not "whining about local", I'm telling people who are "whining about local" (because they want more PVP kills, since they can't get it the honest way) that they're promoting a bad idea which'll make their life worse in the long run.

Not that you, or they, will acknowledge this. Oh well.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#852 - 2012-07-12 02:26:35 UTC
The risk vs reward in Null is broken individually and is broken the other way for some alliances. See tech moons.
What we really need is a balance of all things Null so individuals can get more and frankly tech moons just gone.

As to the PvP argument, yes Null does include and must include PvP but PvP isn't all that null is. You speak of having to use D-scan and having no warning. The loss of Local would mean adaptation, if you ran radar sites instead for instance you would have massive warning as you need to have probes to find these.

Null is at the moment both too easy and too hard, for those alliances in along time life is easier for new alliances trying to start out, it is a ***** and honestly not really worth the effort.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#853 - 2012-07-12 07:31:08 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
The loss of Local would mean adaptation, if you ran radar sites instead for instance you would have massive warning as you need to have probes to find these.

How do radar sites in null compare in effort/risk/reward vs L4s?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#854 - 2012-07-12 09:24:42 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:

Local is holding EVE back. Period. Get rid of it and let EVE become great.


I'm slightly envious Caliph, your remove Local thread is well over 40 pages, none of mine made it past a dozen, and most less than that. I should have known to mention balls somewhere in the title I suppose.


I fully support removing Local Chat's Intel functions, even in the event of no improved intel gathering tools it would be a marked improvement. However, Nullsec advocates like Zim do have a point about Highsec, and that most of their PvEers that aren't already there will be after such a change.

That isn't to say because of this Local shouldn't be rightly wiped from the game forever, but rather the biggest stink of all in EVE is Highsec itself. High Level PvE (Incursions, lvl 4, even level 3 missions, DED 4/10 exploration sites etc all need to be removed from space which has CONCORD. And NPC corps need stop being a sanctuary from Wardecs.

I guess what I'm saying there should be room for agreement between those of us that embrace the Sandbox PvP nature of EVE, but that agreement comes not from single issues, but with a comprehensive list of changes to get EVE back to what CCP sold it to us as.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#855 - 2012-07-12 13:21:03 UTC
Xorv wrote:
I fully support removing Local Chat's Intel functions, even in the event of no improved intel gathering tools it would be a marked improvement. However, Nullsec advocates like Zim do have a point about Highsec, and that most of their PvEers that aren't already there will be after such a change.

I made some points about high sec in the last couple of pages, and while Lord Zim was ready to debate them, I feel I defended my view quite well.

That being, high sec's quality of intel is rubbish.
Players have grown complacent and numb about minding their personal security in high sec, under the mistaken belief they cannot be harmed due to Concord.

Let's be honest on this: Unless they recognize a name, or have been wardecced and see the warning icon, local intel has no value in high sec. At no point will some unfamiliar unflagged name in that list inspire a sudden urge to prepare for possible PvP, or otherwise defend themselves.
Total garbage as far as intel value is rated.

At least if they were to even just use D-Scan, they could limit it to their region, so it ignored gate travel and people camped in stations. Just tell them the traffic that was coming into their area of the system.

Effort? Yes, of course. Nothing of value in EVE is given for free, especially intel.
The delusion of local having intel value in high sec should be ended.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#856 - 2012-07-12 13:37:55 UTC
All I'll say is that if hisec lost L3 and above (or even just L4 and above), I would have no problems at all with getting on board with no local, since nullsec would then be substantially more profitable than hisec, which means that people who live in nullsec would have to choose between either grinding a LOT, or trying their luck in nullsec and actually take a chance to make isk.

But as long as the reward disparaty between hisec and low/nullsec is as low as it is, removing local anywhere is just a buff to ****** PVPers (until everyone moves back to hisec, which shouldn't take long), and a clear message to carebears that hisec is the place to make money, not nullsec.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#857 - 2012-07-12 23:59:13 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
All I'll say is that if hisec lost L3 and above (or even just L4 and above), I would have no problems at all with getting on board with no local, since nullsec would then be substantially more profitable than hisec, which means that people who live in nullsec would have to choose between either grinding a LOT, or trying their luck in nullsec and actually take a chance to make isk.

But as long as the reward disparaty between hisec and low/nullsec is as low as it is, removing local anywhere is just a buff to ****** PVPers (until everyone moves back to hisec, which shouldn't take long), and a clear message to carebears that hisec is the place to make money, not nullsec.

The biggest problem is how to fix Null without damaging the CCP cash cow of hi-sec. They will never remove L4's from high as too many subs come from that.
At the moment the risk vs reward for a smaller alliance and especially a non-tech moon mining alliance is really in the why bother area. With blobs running around and morons who like to drop super caps on single ships floating about there is just no reward great enough.
I'm not sure if it is just me but eve feels like it has lost its way compared to 3-4 years ago when everything seemed so much better. Not the game code but the atmosphere.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Ned Black
Driders
#858 - 2012-07-13 06:33:35 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Ned Black wrote:
Well, if you dont have the balls to be out in nullsec unless you have local holding your hands then it sounds to me as if highsec is the right place for you...

Missing the point, I see.

I've plenty balls, what I don't have is a tolerance for effort. Ratting or running anoms in nullsec takes effort, running L4s do not require effort and pay out almost just as well. I, and a fucktonne of other nullsec people, have already set about running L4s instead of running anoms in nullsec for this exact reason, which means that L4s are too lucrative and doing dumb things like removing local (without replacing it with something like, say, a module which can be incapped/hacked for x minutes and it stops registering people in that solar system) will just exacerbate this problem.

Which means we'd be back less than a week after this change had been implemented, with the same pvpbears whining about how there's nobody at all to shoot, and going "what'chu talkin' 'bout willis?" when we point out that a vast majority of those who cared enough about isk efficiency to deal with the extra work of keeping safe without local, have either moved back to hisec to farm L4s or promoted themselves to full-on WH residency.

Ned Black wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
I see it's the bi-weekly "I suck at PVP so I must whine about local" event again.


And yet the one whining in just about every remove local thread I have seen is you... if wanting to make things harder makes us suck at PvP then what does whining about making things harder make you?

I'm not "whining about local", I'm telling people who are "whining about local" (because they want more PVP kills, since they can't get it the honest way) that they're promoting a bad idea which'll make their life worse in the long run.

Not that you, or they, will acknowledge this. Oh well.


Dude... if you think running anoms and ratting in nullsec in effort... then no offence intended, but in that case you are completely clueless as to what effort means. Come back and talk about effort when you require a 5-10 man RR fleet just to do the anoms... Right now nullsec PvE is about as effortless as you can get.

Get just enough tank to survive the crap for DPS battleships and smack in as much damage enhancing mods as you can on top of that to maximize your efficency... affter that its all a walk down easy street straight to the bank. The only risk you have is PvP... but if you keep an eye on local not even that will bother you. Lucky Luke may be able to outdraw his own shadow... but local will ALWAYS outdraw anyone jumping in as long as the one in the system is keeping it in check.

I would love it if CCP to change nullsec rats and anoms to be more akin to incursion/sleepers and actually make them dangerous. Suddenly people in nullsec would have to work as teams in order to make money... but even if CCP increased bountys to match I can just assume people in nullsec would put their heels down about such a change too... why? Because then it WOULD be actual effort and risk involved to do PvE. And where is the fun in that right? Actually its a blast, thats why I love high end sleeper blasting so much. Even experienced fleets takes losses in sleeper plexes beacuse of small mistakes... and that only adds to the thrill. The first time I watched my shields with 75+ resists go down to half in one blast I was screaming like a girl over coms. In nullsec the rats are so easy that the only "thrill" is to see if your current payout is bigger than the last one.

So... effort... nah... try out a highend wormhole for a while to get some perspective as to how much "effort" nullsec is compared to the sleeper site... and who knows... you may even start liking a lack of local if you do... when you start thinking about it, the ones vouching for no local is mostly people that live or have lived without it... the thought of no local does not scare us in the slightest, it only adds spices and flavour... and the people fighting with everything they have to keep local are mostly the ones that have never experienced a lack of local except as bugs... and bugs does not count.

Besides... If local is the only thing keeping people in nullsec then its really really bad... there will always be people who remain. They are the hard core, the ones that love the danger and thrill of living in space that is actually dangerous... the ones that actually belong in nullsec... the rest... the soft outer shell... well, if they can't live with the danger then they dont belong in dangerous space to begin with.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#859 - 2012-07-13 07:42:25 UTC
Running anoms and ratting in nullsec is more than just shooting red crosses, but sure, go ahead, remove local without doing **** to hisec income and watch my prediction come true.

Also watch the gankers whine even more about an empty nullsec. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#860 - 2012-07-13 09:55:20 UTC
I'm totally in favor of removing local. Well make it delayed like in w-space to have some ways of broadcasting to everyone in the system. Who is using local in low/nullsec for communication purposes and who uses it for free intel?

I think that the subs won't go down, scouting is still valid. Maybe even more then.

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.