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New dev blog: The FW Exploit 2012 (or: How I learned about FOREX)

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Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending
#201 - 2012-06-28 22:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Madner Kami
CCP Sreegs wrote:
:Fancygraph: All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI!


So, not wanting to rain on your :Exploit-fixed-parade: but how comes nobody noticed that, until those 5 players spilled the beans to you?

P.S.: Page 11 already? Damn, I was afk for too long.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2012-06-28 22:31:24 UTC
Madner Kami wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
:Fancygraph: All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI!


So, not wanting to rain on your :Exploit-fixed-parade: but how comes nobody noticed that, until those 5 players spilled the beans to you?

P.S.: Page 11 already? Damn, I was afk for too long.


They did see it elsewhere I guess. The connection just hadn't been made yet.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Pipa Porto
#203 - 2012-06-28 22:31:41 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Rented wrote:
It pains me to see the degree of stupidity displayed by those apparently unable to see how this was an obvious exploit, or perhaps they just can't understand what was happening.

However, this appears to have been handled perfectly to me and even the 5 people directly involved are content with it. Though it would've been more amusing (for everyone else anyways) if even more assets than were profited through this exploitation remained seized... but that's just because they're goons.

Nor do I really understand people calling for bans when CCP is clearly capable of reversing the gains obtained through this fairly benign exploit.


At least you're honest and frank that your motivating desire to see us get ****ed is because we're goons. More than many other posters in this thread can say Lol

To draw a comparison (at least for any American players), many posters in this thread want to see "justice done" in the same way that Darrell Issa wants to see "justice done" for Fast & Furious Lol


I really, really want to continue this line of discussion. Really, really do. It's a fun discussion to have, and I had something witty all typed up. But I remembered that CCP has eaten some crow to make improvements, and we should do the same.

Sad So this isn't the place.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#204 - 2012-06-28 22:33:27 UTC
Madner Kami wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
:Fancygraph: All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI!


So, not wanting to rain on your :Exploit-fixed-parade: but how comes nobody noticed that, until those 5 players spilled the beans to you?

P.S.: Page 11 already? Damn, I was afk for too long.

CCP GingerDude wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit?


This did also show up as a statistical anomaly in our player event metrics although it took a while for it to properly register. I.e. we noticed and would've taken action regardless of snitching.



So yeah. They'd noticed, they just didn't quite get all of the implications of it right off the bat. Or something.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Pipa Porto
#205 - 2012-06-28 22:33:41 UTC
Xaarous wrote:
To me it's pretty easy to test whether something you want to try would be an exploit or not: Ask yourself, who has to "fall for" my plan in order for it to work? (By "work", I mean "generate income with essentially zero risk")

1. If it's other players, congrats you're doing market manipulation or a scam. These are both allowed and the former in particular is a cornerstone of sandbox gameplay.
2. If it's CCP, you're cheating.
3. If it's somehow "no-one", it might be cheating but might be something new.

Examples:
1. Hulkageddon and isotope supply interdiction
2. LP spiral due to item 'value' formula manipulation
3. Jet can mining (allowed mining yield per player per unit time to go higher than originally anticipated, but ultimately deemed allowed and also 'neat')

The insurance payout scheme IMHO is #2, even though it was never deemed as such.

Is there an example of #2 that's currently deemed legal? I'd love to shoot some holes in my own theory. Are there other examples that fit #3?


When it's profitable, Insurance fraud is still #2, and has never been deemed cheating or illegal. It's just been made so that it's much harder to come to situations where it's profitable.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#206 - 2012-06-28 22:38:41 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Hi. I'm sorry if "Blowing your ship up over and over again with various items in the hold to manufacture a particular currency from thin air" isn't clear enough for you but I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to be more clear or direct.

It's funny that there exists a game mechanic that causes a certain currency to be manufactured from thin air whenever a ship is blown up over with various items in its hold, but if you actually blow up a ship over and over again with various items in its hold in order to create a certain currency from thin air you get all your assets seized.
Better Than You
Doomheim
#207 - 2012-06-28 22:41:25 UTC
Goons exploiting non-shocker.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#208 - 2012-06-28 22:43:42 UTC
I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Spaja Saist
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2012-06-28 22:47:08 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Atomic Option wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool.


PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one.


This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.

CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#210 - 2012-06-28 22:53:15 UTC
Spaja Saist wrote:

This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.

CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.

did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation

because that was a thing that did and is still happening

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#211 - 2012-06-28 22:54:40 UTC
But but querns one of us will get two or three plexes out of the deal!

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#212 - 2012-06-28 22:57:25 UTC
corestwo wrote:
But but querns one of us will get two or three plexes out of the deal!

I guess 2b isk is a lot to some people? :iiam:

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#213 - 2012-06-28 22:58:15 UTC
Querns wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:

This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.

CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.

did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation

because that was a thing that did and is still happening


Clearly CCP hires exclusively from Goons and there's some extremely vague grand conspiracy which may involve aliens, butterscotch, a toaster, at least 17 deimos', and masking tape.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#214 - 2012-06-28 22:59:11 UTC
While I see the rationale in simply banning LP farming - it is too difficult to ram a solution through quickly and not really your problem - it offends my EVE sensibilities to have a system that I am forbidden from using for something other than its intended purpose. I would hope that once the team has had a chance to look at this again and actually fix it, the ban on farming will be removed.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Pipa Porto
#215 - 2012-06-28 23:00:02 UTC
Rented wrote:
Querns wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:

This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.

CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.

did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation

because that was a thing that did and is still happening


Clearly CCP hires exclusively from Goons and there's some extremely vague grand conspiracy which may involve aliens, butterscotch, a toaster, at least 17 deimos', and masking tape.


Don't forget the 4 cords of prime Oak.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#216 - 2012-06-28 23:11:28 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem.


By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks".

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#217 - 2012-06-28 23:12:35 UTC
Spaja Saist wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Atomic Option wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool.


PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one.


This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.

CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.


We're rewarding the person who brought us the problem. Just like any other time someone brings us problems of this nature as per the program linked in the dev blog.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#218 - 2012-06-28 23:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Sreegs
Weaselior wrote:
While I see the rationale in simply banning LP farming - it is too difficult to ram a solution through quickly and not really your problem - it offends my EVE sensibilities to have a system that I am forbidden from using for something other than its intended purpose. I would hope that once the team has had a chance to look at this again and actually fix it, the ban on farming will be removed.


We would hope so too.

:edit: to clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#219 - 2012-06-28 23:15:35 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem.


By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks".

wait really

is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#220 - 2012-06-28 23:19:54 UTC
Querns wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem.


By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks".

wait really

is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something


That graph was generated as part of the investigation.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012