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New dev blog: The FW Exploit 2012 (or: How I learned about FOREX)

First post
Author
Abulurd Boniface
Serene Vendetta
#161 - 2012-06-28 19:50:17 UTC
The graph does not show the value of the Y-axis, which makes it as useful as the given word of the CEO of Landsbanki.

I still tip my hat at the ingenuity of the people who found this particular caper. Deep respect to you.

I feel that the player should not be the one making the distinction between what is functionality and what is an exploit. Basically they used designer-produced content to their best advantage. They -only- used the interface as it was presented to everyone else in the game. Everybody who did their homework could have done the same thing. For me that means they are walking on the extreme razor's edge of the point where they start doing illegal stuff. But they're not quite there yet.

On the other hand, I can understand CCP's point of view, because this puppy was drawing blood, to the point of breaking the game. From the perspective of good stewardship of the environment, they just can't let that slide by.

I'm very happy that it all ended in amiable fashion, with the reset, so that the parties can take a bow, congratulate one party on their superb mastery of the environment, while the other is absolutely doing the right thing in taking the lesson in stride.

And because we are all adults here, we get to appreciate what a grandiose place this is and enjoy each other's company even more.

It is a privilege to share this experience with you fine people.
Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#162 - 2012-06-28 19:56:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dealth Striker
This is very funny to hear how CCP handled this.
CCP admits that it was an exploit but the justice handed out is a joke.
If this was 5 people from a corporation other than the Goons, they would have had a ban handed out.
I guess having that many subscriptions can bend the mighty CCP.

Giving the one goon who snitched (after being part of the 2 week exploit) an award - while that is one giant cherry on top of the sundae that has been thrown in CCP's face.

CCP doing stuff like this shows they have not changed much.

The time and resources spent to roll-back these 5 players is absurd - these are 5 really important players to CCP.
Striker Out!!
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#163 - 2012-06-28 20:00:05 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:
From my perspective as a player this was in no way an exploit. The system seems to have worked exactly as it was designed to work, it just contained a loophole big enough to drive 5 trillion through.

Given that the FW design is too fragile to allow for the staggering amount of LP it generated I would consider the removal of LP from the relevant accounts to be a fair solution after the loophole was closed.

But exploit? Nah.

I'm actually kind of curious why this has been something CCP Sreegs have dealt with. I would have thought this was a game design issue from start to finish.


Presumably because he knows how to follow the ISK. That is what he does to catch RMT. He probably also wanted to cavity search us too. You don't pop up on a forum and shout 5T without bending over for a good probing.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Abulurd Boniface
Serene Vendetta
#164 - 2012-06-28 20:03:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Abulurd Boniface
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
Dalilus wrote:
i am beginning to understand why expansions in eve are free.......maybe ccp will learn from this......Roll
Nothing in EVE is free.

We pay for our expansions in installments, whether they are monthly or one of the other payment frequencies chosen.

Furthermore, some of CCP's customers opt to provide stress / load, design and functionality testing services via the Mass testing sessions and feedback periods on Sisi. That is an enormous cost savings to CCP and could also be looked at yet another way in which CCP's clients pay into their services and enable these "free" expansions.

TBH, EVE is a fairly expensive MMO, so don't kid yourself about all of the stuff that CCP is just throwing away for "free."


I suspect someone is suffering from an ailment at the extreme end of the digestive tract here.

EVE is extremely affordable. The environment you get is a piece of engineering that boggles the mind and that is at the bleeding edge of technology. -And- you get to do crazy stuff like this which, when it is not deemed an exploit, a position that I can support in this case, stands if it doesn't break the ephemeral balance between 'sure, we'll accept this' and 'sorry guys, we can't let you do that.'

If the 5 guys who did this tried that in any other MMOG, their account would have been permabanned without any ifs, buts or maybes. CCP has acknowledged the genius of finding this weakness and provided a measured response. This is elite leadership. Show me any other place where it would have been handled like that.

We get to play in a superb environment, we are spoiled rotten by continuous, detailed and measured communication from the designers and the tapestry of third-party applications built and maintained by players is a refined quilt of beauty and enthusiasm.

It kills me to see people whining incessantly over the pittance they are charged for the privilege of joining this magnificent universe, when they know full well that you can't even get a decent buzz at the bar going for that price on a single evening.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#165 - 2012-06-28 20:03:34 UTC
Abulurd Boniface wrote:
The graph does not show the value of the Y-axis, which makes it as useful as the given word of the CEO of Landsbanki.

I still tip my hat at the ingenuity of the people who found this particular caper. Deep respect to you.

I feel that the player should not be the one making the distinction between what is functionality and what is an exploit. Basically they used designer-produced content to their best advantage. They -only- used the interface as it was presented to everyone else in the game. Everybody who did their homework could have done the same thing. For me that means they are walking on the extreme razor's edge of the point where they start doing illegal stuff. But they're not quite there yet.

On the other hand, I can understand CCP's point of view, because this puppy was drawing blood, to the point of breaking the game. From the perspective of good stewardship of the environment, they just can't let that slide by.

I'm very happy that it all ended in amiable fashion, with the reset, so that the parties can take a bow, congratulate one party on their superb mastery of the environment, while the other is absolutely doing the right thing in taking the lesson in stride.

And because we are all adults here, we get to appreciate what a grandiose place this is and enjoy each other's company even more.

It is a privilege to share this experience with you fine people.


This is for the most part how I see it too.

CCP decided that this one was so close to the line, it was the line. At the line you don't get banned, or punished, you get made whole, but you get chest bumped back.

Over the line you get insta banned. So in effect they are saying, the line is right about here. It's a grey area, I obviously don't agree the line is right here, but it's their game. I will just keep helping to shape the limits of it.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Kern Hotha
#166 - 2012-06-28 20:05:06 UTC
Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.

Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.

"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes

We distinguish the excellent man from the common man by saying that the former is the one who makes great demands upon himself, and the latter who makes no demands on himself.

Jose Ortega y Gasset (1883 - 1955)

Mechael
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2012-06-28 20:08:06 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.


Huh. Sounds like PvE.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.

Pipa Porto
#168 - 2012-06-28 20:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Aryth wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.


Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated.

It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics.


I pitched a possible solution. We spent days theorycrafting a fix that preserves the system without making it gameable to a degree you are profiting on the conversion. You might still profit on the market manip, but not the conversion itself. This might be an acceptable solution to CCP, who knows. I hope they don't gut it though.


This sounds really interesting. Implemented or not, I hope that you publish your fix.

And I think limiting the profit to the market manip is the best CCP can hope for with Forex.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#169 - 2012-06-28 20:24:23 UTC
Kern Hotha wrote:
Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.

Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.

"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes


Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#170 - 2012-06-28 20:28:01 UTC
Dealth Striker wrote:
This is very funny to hear how CCP handled this.
CCP admits that it was an exploit but the justice handed out is a joke.
If this was 5 people from a corporation other than the Goons, they would have had a ban handed out.
I guess having that many subscriptions can bend the mighty CCP.

Giving the one goon who snitched (after being part of the 2 week exploit) an award - while that is one giant cherry on top of the sundae that has been thrown in CCP's face.

CCP doing stuff like this shows they have not changed much.

The time and resources spent to roll-back these 5 players is absurd - these are 5 really important players to CCP.

I'm glad you aren't in charge of anything. Nothing is ever black and white. A good leader understands the difference between someone being deliberately malicious (pro RMTers, game hackers, account thieves, etc...) and someone being creative and indirectly malicious with more or less benign intent, and that these actions and motivators carry with them a kaleidoscope of possible appropriate punitive actions. This game is supposed to be "fun" and with that a certain degree of levity and forgiveness serves the mighty overlords at CCP well. If you just dish out harsh black and white "justice" and bring the hammer down every time, your people not only won't work well for you, but will actively sabotage you. This apply to any business or war. There's a time for executions and a time for 24 hours in a detox cell, is what I'm trying to say.

That said, I still say the way CCP handled the guys who blew up the Cockroach and looted an Enigma was bunk. If I looted a unique ship like that and CCP took it away I'd cry like a 5yo girl who got man-punched in the face.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#171 - 2012-06-28 20:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Kern Hotha wrote:
Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.

Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.

"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes

Believe me when I say that there are more than few goons who have known Sreegs' tender touch (along with many other pilots from many other corps and alliances, nullsec & otherwise, of course), and they definitely would not say that they got off lightly.

Different scenarios, but deciding that sreegs goes lightly on goons because of this one case is really quite laughable.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#172 - 2012-06-28 20:30:08 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.


Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated.

It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics.


I pitched a possible solution. We spent days theorycrafting a fix that preserves the system without making it gameable to a degree you are profiting on the conversion. You might still profit on the market manip, but not the conversion itself. This might be an acceptable solution to CCP, who knows. I hope they don't gut it though.


This sounds really interesting. Implemented or not, I hope that you publish your fix.

And I think limiting the profit to the market manip is the best CCP can hope for with Forex.


I think it's something we should all hope for. Introducing an entirely new game mechanic that would let you combine manip+forex is quite interesting. I hope they don't completely kill it off.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Zastrow
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#173 - 2012-06-28 20:32:32 UTC
WHO'S READY FOR SOME EMERGENT GAMEPLAY???

http://i.imgur.com/vCVlM.jpg
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#174 - 2012-06-28 20:33:19 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

I think I explained in terms of exploitation where the issue was (BLOWING UP SHIPS TO MAKE MAGIC STUFF APPEAR) and I'm not really going to get involved in a philosophical debate about what "value" means. I'm a security guy not the philosophy or economics guy. I'm sure they'd love to have such a discourse. :)

Make them come have this discussion tia

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Pipa Porto
#175 - 2012-06-28 20:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kern Hotha wrote:
Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.

Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.

"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes


Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality.


It's really too bad that this event came to light in the middle of Reynolds having a big coupon drive. But sometimes the timing of these things can't be helped. [sigh]

Anyway, I think that it's clear that we all love conspiracy theories, and the less grounded they are in reality, the better. In this case we have two wonderful ones; the Sreegs is a Goon protecting the Goons, and the Sreegs is a meanie who hates sandboxes.

TBH, I was halfway into the second camp before the devblog came out, and now your actions place you right in the middle. If you were protecting the Goons, you'd have let it stand and simply had the problem fixed. Were you being a big meanie, you would have banned them or at leas not refunded the initial investment.

I think a case could be (and has been, ad nauseam) made for any of these actions, and I think that the decision you (the team you represent) reached is, on reflection, probably the healthiest for the game*.

It's like the old saying about striking a deal. The best deals are struck where nobody's happy.

*Even though it's not totally consistent with previous decisions in similar cases. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

(Oh, and Aryth and friends, next time keep these types of proceeds as separate from your other stuff as possible. It's probably polite to make investigations as easy as possible on Sreegs. Blink)

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#176 - 2012-06-28 20:38:55 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kern Hotha wrote:
Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.

Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.

"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes


Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality.



Giving them the "kids' glove' treatment is really fair?
Do what usually happens to exploits - lock their accts and make them file a petition. That way they can go thru the normal channel of the petition like others have too. I bet having to wait for the petition to be looked at, the back and forth msgs, decision making, well that would be a fairier way of handling this.

Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers.

Is doing this for them really fair to other subscribers CCP Sreegs?
Striker Out!!
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#177 - 2012-06-28 20:43:02 UTC
Dealth Striker wrote:
Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers.


fyi

this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job

they literally hire him to deal with this sort of ****

he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire

this is his job

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#178 - 2012-06-28 20:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dealth Striker
Querns wrote:
Dealth Striker wrote:
Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers.


fyi

this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job

they literally hire him to deal with this sort of ****

he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire

this is his job


In regards to dealing with the 5 exploiters

"group decision"

Plus I do not think he will personally be doing everything to do the so-called fix.

Does he also just sit around waiting for something like this to happen - I do not think so.
Striker Out!!
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#179 - 2012-06-28 20:47:39 UTC
Dealth Striker wrote:
"group decision"

deciding what to do != doing it

EFFORT HUNGRY VAMPIRE

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#180 - 2012-06-28 20:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Dealth Striker wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dealth Striker wrote:
Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers.


fyi

this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job

they literally hire him to deal with this sort of ****

he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire

this is his job



"group decision"

Plus I do not think he will personally be doing everything to do the so-called fix.

Does he also just sit around waiting for something like to happen - I do not think so.


CCP is a professional organization, meetings are a normal thing.

And as to "other developers" getting pulled in on the fix - that's such a fallacious argument. Those developers would get pulled into the fix whether we'd reported it without using it, used it as we did, or simply quietly released it to other players and let dozens of people run rampant (believe me, the markets would look much worse if we'd done the latter.) CCP effort expended to fix this is the same regardless.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo