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New dev blog: The FW Exploit 2012 (or: How I learned about FOREX)

First post
Author
Pipa Porto
#221 - 2012-06-28 23:21:36 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Querns wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem.


By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks".

wait really

is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something


That graph was generated as part of the investigation.


Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE?

Well, why not? Blink

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending
#222 - 2012-06-28 23:29:06 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE?

Well, why not? Blink


Well one might actually find this snarky comment funny, until you realize that the entire LP-system change which allowed this abuse in the first place, was one of the selling points of the recent expansion. I don't expect CCP to watch each and every little detail with graphs and logs and whatnot, but I kinda expect them to have an eye on the things they just released.
Rhys Thoth
Endland
#223 - 2012-06-28 23:33:53 UTC
This resolution seems pretty fair, though as a trader I am somewhat concerned about the vagueness surrounding the market manipulation. As best as I can tell there were three issues:

1) FW LP gains for kills
2) Market price manipulation
3) Using an 'x day' rolling average to calculate item value

1 needs some tweaking.
2 has been legit gameplay since I first logged in.

3 is where it goes full ******. The algorithm for determining average price needs to be resistant to this type of tampering.

I don't always undock, but when I do... no wait, I acutally never undock.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#224 - 2012-06-28 23:34:27 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Querns wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem.


By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks".

wait really

is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something


That graph was generated as part of the investigation.


Wait, you don't have a matrix style wall of TVs showing Graphs of every possible bit of Economic activity in EvE?

Well, why not? Blink


I can't speak for CCP, but that is what, but that's what the interior of the Goonwaffe Economic Cabal looks like.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Munch Munch
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#225 - 2012-06-28 23:34:52 UTC
So, to sum up the facts again quick:
- They deliberately broke the rules by looking for holes in the mechanics and exploiting whatever they find (they admitted it)
- Their exploits had huge impacts on the market and FW, which caused damage to thousands of other players
- They did not go public with it because of good will, but only to protect themselves, brag about how "awesome" they are, and to make CCP look like fools

And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???

As if they cared about the rollback of the goods they made with those exploits. They had the time of their life, and you probably won't be able to delete all their gains anyway because they are spread all over the universe and to differents accounts and alts by now.
If you permabanned them... perhaps this would have set a sign and they or others would not be trying to exploit in the future anymore. But by REWARDING them for such impudence, you will not prevent anyone from attempting to exploit...
In fact all CCP did (or failed to do) in this case only encourages other players to exploit, and the persons that did it in this case will probably do it again themselves, but the next time they will not go public with it. And you probably will not notice it anyway, seeing how you failed to notice the extreme impacts on the market and FW, despite the fact that you should have been monitoring those things closely after implementing such extreme changes (yay for FW store prices varying between 25% and 400%).

Good to know that "the exploiter" seems to be a new EVE profession that is officially supported now.
If CCP is this dumb, I will make sure to be looking for exploits too from now on.
Spaja Saist
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#226 - 2012-06-28 23:43:22 UTC
Querns wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:

This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.

CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.

did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation

because that was a thing that did and is still happening


And you will get everything back that was not generated using an exploit as Sreegs said. It doesn't change the fact that they are ignoring their own TOS to not ban you. Exploiting a game mechanic is a bannable offense. Then add the fact that Goons gloated about it and gave CCP a black eye.

I personally could give two ***** about Goons. Hell I used to root for you when you were taking down BOB. But lately it seems all you guys care about is doing as much financial damage to CCP and their game as possible.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#227 - 2012-06-28 23:44:39 UTC
Rhys Thoth wrote:
This resolution seems pretty fair, though as a trader I am somewhat concerned about the vagueness surrounding the market manipulation. As best as I can tell there were three issues:

1) FW LP gains for kills
2) Market price manipulation
3) Using an 'x day' rolling average to calculate item value

1 needs some tweaking.
2 has been legit gameplay since I first logged in.

3 is where it goes full ******. The algorithm for determining average price needs to be resistant to this type of tampering.


The tampering only compounded the issue and is not the issue in and of itself. The tampering itself when coupled with the ability to kill and alt over and over again to farm LP is the issue. Without the tampering the farming is significantly less problematic but it's only a part of the puzzle.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#228 - 2012-06-28 23:46:22 UTC
Munch Munch wrote:
So, to sum up the facts again quick:
- They deliberately broke the rules by looking for holes in the mechanics and exploiting whatever they find (they admitted it)
- Their exploits had huge impacts on the market and FW, which caused damage to thousands of other players
- They did not go public with it because of good will, but only to protect themselves, brag about how "awesome" they are, and to make CCP look like fools

And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???

As if they cared about the rollback of the goods they made with those exploits. They had the time of their life, and you probably won't be able to delete all their gains anyway because they are spread all over the universe and to differents accounts and alts by now.
If you permabanned them... perhaps this would have set a sign and they or others would not be trying to exploit in the future anymore. But by REWARDING them for such impudence, you will not prevent anyone from attempting to exploit...
In fact all CCP did (or failed to do) in this case only encourages other players to exploit, and the persons that did it in this case will probably do it again themselves, but the next time they will not go public with it. And you probably will not notice it anyway, seeing how you failed to notice the extreme impacts on the market and FW, despite the fact that you should have been monitoring those things closely after implementing such extreme changes (yay for FW store prices varying between 25% and 400%).

Good to know that "the exploiter" seems to be a new EVE profession that is officially supported now.
If CCP is this dumb, I will make sure to be looking for exploits too from now on.


If we weren't able to fix the problem we wouldn't have said we could.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Rhys Thoth
Endland
#229 - 2012-06-28 23:48:56 UTC
Munch Munch wrote:
And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???


Yeah... It's not like having your assets frozen and several trillion isk in stuff vaporized is any kind of punishment.

I don't always undock, but when I do... no wait, I acutally never undock.

Pipa Porto
#230 - 2012-06-28 23:48:56 UTC
Spaja Saist wrote:
Querns wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:

This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.

CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.

did you miss the part where we had our LP and assets (including a goodly portion of non-involved assets) seized pending investigation

because that was a thing that did and is still happening


And you will get everything back that was not generated using an exploit as Sreegs said. It doesn't change the fact that they are ignoring their own TOS to not ban you. Exploiting a game mechanic is a bannable offense. Then add the fact that Goons gloated about it and gave CCP a black eye.

I personally could give two ***** about Goons. Hell I used to root for you when you were taking down BOB. But lately it seems all you guys care about is doing as much financial damage to CCP and their game as possible.


EULA wrote:
CCP may establish Rules of Conduct (discussed below) for players accessing the System and may, but is not obligated to, monitor and take action regarding inappropriate conduct


The EULA/TOS are written (as most are) specifically to allow CCP unfettered choice in their responses to anything. Thus, they are not ignoring any part of their EULA/TOS regardless of how you may feel about the classification of this event.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto

Spaja Saist
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2012-06-28 23:49:39 UTC
Munch Munch wrote:
So, to sum up the facts again quick:
- They deliberately broke the rules by looking for holes in the mechanics and exploiting whatever they find (they admitted it)
- Their exploits had huge impacts on the market and FW, which caused damage to thousands of other players
- They did not go public with it because of good will, but only to protect themselves, brag about how "awesome" they are, and to make CCP look like fools

And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???

As if they cared about the rollback of the goods they made with those exploits. They had the time of their life, and you probably won't be able to delete all their gains anyway because they are spread all over the universe and to differents accounts and alts by now.
If you permabanned them... perhaps this would have set a sign and they or others would not be trying to exploit in the future anymore. But by REWARDING them for such impudence, you will not prevent anyone from attempting to exploit...
In fact all CCP did (or failed to do) in this case only encourages other players to exploit, and the persons that did it in this case will probably do it again themselves, but the next time they will not go public with it. And you probably will not notice it anyway, seeing how you failed to notice the extreme impacts on the market and FW, despite the fact that you should have been monitoring those things closely after implementing such extreme changes (yay for FW store prices varying between 25% and 400%).

Good to know that "the exploiter" seems to be a new EVE profession that is officially supported now.
If CCP is this dumb, I will make sure to be looking for exploits too from now on.



^What she said. CCP has set a bad precedent with this decision.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2012-06-28 23:51:31 UTC
ROFLMAO

I have always said that people who find exploits like this are:
a) brilliant
b) spend too much time in-game

I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#233 - 2012-06-29 00:04:16 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
ROFLMAO

I have always said that people who find exploits like this are:
a) brilliant
b) spend too much time in-game

I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers.

ccp can't afford me, also I've worked in the video games industry so the novelty is lost on me

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#234 - 2012-06-29 00:16:43 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Urgg Boolean wrote:
ROFLMAO

I have always said that people who find exploits like this are:
a) brilliant
b) spend too much time in-game

I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers.

I'm currently unemployed & looking for work (which is what definitely makes part B true), but even then I'm with querns - CCP can't afford me, not when I'd have to move to iceland. I'm a mechanical engineer anyway, I don't know the first thing about programming...

Besides, being unable to muck around in the markets would be no fun. Same reason I'd never run for CSM...they kinda frown on insider trading by CSM members Big smile

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#235 - 2012-06-29 00:25:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dealth Striker
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Atomic Option wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool.


PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one.


This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.

CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.


We're rewarding the person who brought us the problem. Just like any other time someone brings us problems of this nature as per the program linked in the dev blog.



There you go - CCP can release a summer event entitled - "Exploit for PLEX"

find an exploit, use it to your advantage for awhile, and then turn yourself in -- woola - plex abound.
Striker Out!!
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#236 - 2012-06-29 00:37:43 UTC
Dealth Striker wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Spaja Saist wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Atomic Option wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool.


PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one.


This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned.

CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.


We're rewarding the person who brought us the problem. Just like any other time someone brings us problems of this nature as per the program linked in the dev blog.



There you go - CCP can release a summer event entitled - "Exploit for PLEX"

find an exploit, use it to your advantage for awhile, and then turn yourself in -- woola - plex abound.


I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#237 - 2012-06-29 00:38:26 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
ROFLMAO

I have always said that people who find exploits like this are:
a) brilliant
b) spend too much time in-game

I think CCP should hire those five guys to do testing. I'll bet they'll find all kinds of stuff while simultaneously being more effective than the current testers.

most of the theoretical work for this comes from shooting the **** on jabber, not actually being in-game

eaugh, being in-game

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#238 - 2012-06-29 00:38:58 UTC
thats like what ratters and miners and other peasants do

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#239 - 2012-06-29 00:40:27 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.

sreegs it's 12:40 am over there go to sleep

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#240 - 2012-06-29 00:43:36 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.

sreegs it's 12:40 am over there go to sleep


going now :(

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012