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New dev blog: The FW Exploit 2012 (or: How I learned about FOREX)

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Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#181 - 2012-06-28 20:52:00 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Dealth Striker wrote:
Querns wrote:
Dealth Striker wrote:
Instead you do the work for them, wasting time and resources that could be spent on other paying subscribers.


fyi

this sort of **** is Darius "CCP 'Jersey' Sreegs" Johnson's job

they literally hire him to deal with this sort of ****

he is not somehow sucking work away from other developers or gms like some kind of effort hungry vampire

this is his job



"group decision"

Plus I do not think he will personally be doing everything to do the so-called fix.

Does he also just sit around waiting for something like to happen - I do not think so.


CCP is a professional organization, meetings are a normal thing.

And as to "other developers" getting pulled in on the fix - it means a hole in the game is fixed. Would you rather it be fixed after being used by five players who, as much as you might like to believe otherwise, went out of their way to minimize damage to the markets? Or would you have preferred CCP only really notice two or three months from now when it had crept into the wild and dozens of players were doing it? Because believe me, other players would have figured this out eventually, and CCP's time
spent fixing it would be spent one way or another.


Sorry did not clarify - my comments are in regards to dealing with the 5 players and not the exploit itself
Striker Out!!
Xutech
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2012-06-28 21:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dosnix
*snip*

Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.

It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic.

There is no reason to insult CCP Sreegs! Due to this I´ve edited your post and deleted the bad part of it.
Kind Regards,
ISD Dosnix
Damion Rayne
Panoptic
#183 - 2012-06-28 21:02:35 UTC
Xutech wrote:
I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.

Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.

It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic.


Says a member of thee biggest threat to Eve Online. Figures you guys would try and state that you did nothing wrong, after all, goons never hacked, never exploit, never meta game and tell people to kill themselves. Oh no, Goons are angels...

Shut up, you people are the scourge of this game and should be eradicated from it.

ROA
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#184 - 2012-06-28 21:05:48 UTC
Xutech wrote:
I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.

Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.

It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic.


Hi. I'm sorry if "Blowing your ship up over and over again with various items in the hold to manufacture a particular currency from thin air" isn't clear enough for you but I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to be more clear or direct.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Protheroe
UMEC
#185 - 2012-06-28 21:07:08 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Atomic Option wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool.
PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one.
Will there be rewards for any of the other people who tried to bring to your attention that the system might be manipulated?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#186 - 2012-06-28 21:09:39 UTC
Protheroe wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Atomic Option wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool.
PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one.
Will there be rewards for any of the other people who tried to bring to your attention that the system might be manipulated?


Not if they didn't report it to me directly as per the mention in the thread linked from the blog.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
TheSpyInCorp
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2012-06-28 21:14:27 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.


Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated.

It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics.


Would it even be eligible for a Nobel Prize? The biggest difference between real world economics and eve economics is that in eve we pay for everything with the present value of ISK whereas the real world economy has a future value of money due to interest, compound interest, depreciating salvage value, etc since companies and individuals all borrow money from banks.
Aemonchichi
Limited Access
#188 - 2012-06-28 21:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Aemonchichi
so if i exploit a game mechanic over and over to amass insane amount of LPs ISKies etc for weeks and then i go : lulz ccp i owned the system then i get plex for snitches ?

you should name that programm more appropriate cause i doubt a person can snitch itself ^^

i am happy you come to the conclusion this was a exploit but i do not see you acting according to it, in fact it feels like you are encouraging players to repeat stuff like that in the future

taking the gain of someone using a exploit deliberatly should be the most basic reaction and cannot be part of a "fine" or "punishment"

in fact they exploited excessively and after correction of the exploited mechanism they get rewarded with plex

that does not even remotely feel right to me and i think CCP let a opportunity slip to make a clear statement of how they do not want stuff like this to happen ever again
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#189 - 2012-06-28 21:24:59 UTC
From Sreegs blog "responsible disclosure - reporting security issues"
Quote:
Simply saying "something is broken" isn't always helpful, but saying "something's broken and here's how I broke it" is what we're looking for.

So, using the exploit to demonstrate it is actually quite ok, right?
Disclosing it in the way it was done, publicly and with a lot of smug, isn't.^^
(And yes, while the document DID leak at first, don't tell me you weren't going to post this either way)
TheSpyInCorp
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2012-06-28 21:28:31 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?

They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare.


I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder.


Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it.

they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them.

Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing.

Peace


We feel we did the right thing and it's unfortunate that we perhaps disagree in the severity of the response but unfortunately that's going to happen every time we make any decision.


plus, not everyone in the world is a white knight. If the result of reporting an exploit after exploting it yourself resulted in a ban, the only people who would ACTUALLY REPORT the exploit would be the white knights. Hopefully you see why that would be a problem
Pipa Porto
#191 - 2012-06-28 21:34:25 UTC
TheSpyInCorp wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo.


Fair enough. I hope you're having a good long conversation about how to fix Forex markets to keep them from being manipulated.

It would be spectacular to see CCP be the first Gaming company win the Nobel Prize for Economics.


Would it even be eligible for a Nobel Prize? The biggest difference between real world economics and eve economics is that in eve we pay for everything with the present value of ISK whereas the real world economy has a future value of money due to interest, compound interest, depreciating salvage value, etc since companies and individuals all borrow money from banks.



It wouldn't be directly applicable, but protecting an almost impossible to regulate market from manipulation would be a first... ever, so I imagine that it wouldn't be an enormous step to get it applied to real markets, especially since Futures markets are kind of understood.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#192 - 2012-06-28 21:39:25 UTC
It pains me to see the degree of stupidity displayed by those apparently unable to see how this was an obvious exploit, or perhaps they just can't understand what was happening.

However, this appears to have been handled perfectly to me and even the 5 people directly involved are content with it. Though it would've been more amusing (for everyone else anyways) if even more assets than were profited through this exploitation remained seized... but that's just because they're goons.

Nor do I really understand people calling for bans when CCP is clearly capable of reversing the gains obtained through this fairly benign exploit.
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#193 - 2012-06-28 21:39:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanessa Vansen
We, the players, already told you that this will happen!

my own remark
there might be many others in that thread as well

So, yes, sometimes it does make sense to listen to us!
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#194 - 2012-06-28 21:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Rented wrote:
It pains me to see the degree of stupidity displayed by those apparently unable to see how this was an obvious exploit, or perhaps they just can't understand what was happening.

However, this appears to have been handled perfectly to me and even the 5 people directly involved are content with it. Though it would've been more amusing (for everyone else anyways) if even more assets than were profited through this exploitation remained seized... but that's just because they're goons.

Nor do I really understand people calling for bans when CCP is clearly capable of reversing the gains obtained through this fairly benign exploit.


At least you're honest and frank that your motivating desire to see us get ****ed is because we're goons. More than many other posters in this thread can say Lol

To draw a comparison (at least for any American players), many posters in this thread want to see "justice done" in the same way that Darrell Issa wants to see "justice done" for Fast & Furious Lol

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-06-28 21:43:06 UTC
CCP admitting it was an exploit - Kudos!
CCP fixing said exploit - Kudos!
CCP saying what is happening to the exploiters - Thumbs Down!


I feel u should have never said what their punishment (if you can call it that) was.
CCP could have just said their accts are locked and they need to petition to get them unlocked. Then the public would not know (from CCP) how they were dealt with. But they would know what is involved in being in the petition queue.

From what I am reading in the blog and feedback, my opinion is:

Eve Community - the minority

Goons - the Majority
Striker Out!!
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#196 - 2012-06-28 21:44:07 UTC
Dealth Striker wrote:

Eve Community - the minority

Goons - the Majority


4000 players are a majority out of a few hundred thousand.

Got it.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Xaarous
Happy Endings.
Good Sax
#197 - 2012-06-28 21:45:11 UTC
To me it's pretty easy to test whether something you want to try would be an exploit or not: Ask yourself, who has to "fall for" my plan in order for it to work? (By "work", I mean "generate income with essentially zero risk")

1. If it's other players, congrats you're doing market manipulation or a scam. These are both allowed and the former in particular is a cornerstone of sandbox gameplay.
2. If it's CCP, you're cheating.
3. If it's somehow "no-one", it might be cheating but might be something new.

Examples:
1. Hulkageddon and isotope supply interdiction
2. LP spiral due to item 'value' formula manipulation
3. Jet can mining (allowed mining yield per player per unit time to go higher than originally anticipated, but ultimately deemed allowed and also 'neat')

The insurance payout scheme IMHO is #2, even though it was never deemed as such.

Is there an example of #2 that's currently deemed legal? I'd love to shoot some holes in my own theory. Are there other examples that fit #3?
Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#198 - 2012-06-28 21:46:46 UTC
apparently not
Striker Out!!
Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#199 - 2012-06-28 21:49:26 UTC
corestwo wrote:

4000 players are a majority out of a few hundred thousand.




See I can do it too Big smile
Striker Out!!
Xutech
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2012-06-28 21:58:48 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Xutech wrote:
I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.

Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.

It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic.


Hi. I'm sorry if "Blowing your ship up over and over again with various items in the hold to manufacture a particular currency from thin air" isn't clear enough for you but I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to be more clear or direct.


I feel better now you've made that humble confession. We have common ground but you can be very difficult to get along with.