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CCP - Rookie System Rules Clarification

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Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#581 - 2012-06-22 03:54:24 UTC
Sentinel Smith wrote:
How is it fair


1) Kills rookies in rookie systems

2) Calls Whaaaambulance when this is not allowed

3) Cites this as unfair


WHAT?
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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#582 - 2012-06-22 04:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Corina Jarr wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Jeeze Louise, this topic still active?

Over 5000 star systems as well as 2500 wormhole systems in the Eve Universe and you gotta look for kills in the Rookie systems? Seems some players just don't get it.

If you need to have a definite line drawn so you'll know just exactly how far you can go before crossing it, then you're the reason these rules have been implemented. As such, the ban hammer needs to strike you down really fast as an example to others.


You seem to miss the point.


OTHER people need that line, because they cross it every day. Just go into any rookie system and take a look.

That is what Tippia and Ruby are fighting for. To make it easier on those rookies and so that we as players have a definite (or close to it) rule so we can report folks with an expectation that something will be done and we aren't simply misunderstanding.


Oh, and death to rookie killers. Too bad my PvP skills are terrible, or I would go bait some baiters.

No, I didn't miss the point at all. But it's obvious a lot of older players are missing the point. CCP said = DO NOT MESS WITH ROOKIES.

If people can't understand that, then they need to wake up and drink some coffee. Those who choose to ignore that rule need to have the perma-ban hammer strike them fast and hard. If clarification is needed, Rookie Chat is active for 30 days.

If older players continue to push this issue and continue to grief new players, more and more systems will be added to that list.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#583 - 2012-06-22 04:44:46 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:


Oh my it was not a personal attack. It was to clarify why your behavior is not normal. And now I know. It is not your fault.
I am sorry.

His behavior is perfectly normal for someone who wants to protect rookies. The current setup is inadequate.


Also you seem to not understand Asperger's very well. Aspie's need for rules to be defined comes from their inability to pick up on those rules in social situations.
This issue would not apply here. Rather than being expected to pick up on it, CCP has already provided the rule. For an Aspie like me, that rule is sufficient to form my own conclusions. I tend to take my personal rules a bit farther than I think CCP would, but better safe than sorry as the saying goes.

But there are others who like killing rookies, and so when the rule is vague as it is now, they take advantage of that to get their kicks. This is why the rules need to be more definitive.


Um no they do not need to be more definitive. They work well enough right now. The GM's are in control and enforce it well enough thank you. But you also made my point thank you. You are one that needs the rule clairified because of your need to have rules. In fact you will not find a single person with Asperger's that will say the rule is good enough the way it is right now.
Nope not one. It is the way you are wired.

Those that like killing rookies will get banned. That is good enough for me. Rookies will get there ships back.
Perhaps if anything needs to be done it would be to notify the rookies in the tutorial how to petition a GM should they become a victim of this. End of story.



Ok, seriously, which is the end goal of the policy CCP want to use to protect rookies from harm
a) Prevent Rookies from being messed with OR
b) Ban bad people who are mean to rookies

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#584 - 2012-06-22 04:47:48 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Jeeze Louise, this topic still active?

Over 5000 star systems as well as 2500 wormhole systems in the Eve Universe and you gotta look for kills in the Rookie systems? Seems some players just don't get it.

If you need to have a definite line drawn so you'll know just exactly how far you can go before crossing it, then you're the reason these rules have been implemented. As such, the ban hammer needs to strike you down really fast as an example to others.


You seem to miss the point.


OTHER people need that line, because they cross it every day. Just go into any rookie system and take a look.

That is what Tippia and Ruby are fighting for. To make it easier on those rookies and so that we as players have a definite (or close to it) rule so we can report folks with an expectation that something will be done and we aren't simply misunderstanding.


Oh, and death to rookie killers. Too bad my PvP skills are terrible, or I would go bait some baiters.

No, I didn't miss the point at all. But it's obvious a lot of older players are missing the point. CCP said = DO NOT MESS WITH ROOKIES.

If people can't understand that, then they need to wake up and drink some coffee. Those who choose to ignore that rule need to have the perma-ban hammer strike them fast and hard. If clarification is needed, Rookie Chat is active for 30 days.

If older players continue to push this issue and continue to grief new players, more and more systems will be added to that list.


What we are saying is that a rule which BOTH allows PvP in rookie systems AND fails to define "rookie" causes harm to rookies and everyone else involved. CCP has proposed such a rule.

Fixing either one of those failures will fix the rule. One failure is easy to fix, one is (as we've seen so massively ITT) hard.

Now, Why is it that the idea of banning PvP in rookie systems is so abhorrent to you folks?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#585 - 2012-06-22 05:07:04 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
What we are saying is that a rule which BOTH allows PvP in rookie systems AND fails to define "rookie" causes harm to rookies and everyone else involved. CCP has proposed such a rule.

Fixing either one of those failures will fix the rule. One failure is easy to fix, one is (as we've seen so massively ITT) hard.

Now, Why is it that the idea of banning PvP in rookie systems is so abhorrent to you folks?

Hmm, perhaps Jita should be classified as a rookie system, if pvp is to be banned there. Perhaps we should start moving there to have our trade hubs.

I think the Caldari rookie system is very close to Jita, so ... hm.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#586 - 2012-06-22 05:12:05 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
What we are saying is that a rule which BOTH allows PvP in rookie systems AND fails to define "rookie" causes harm to rookies and everyone else involved. CCP has proposed such a rule.

Fixing either one of those failures will fix the rule. One failure is easy to fix, one is (as we've seen so massively ITT) hard.

Now, Why is it that the idea of banning PvP in rookie systems is so abhorrent to you folks?

Hmm, perhaps Jita should be classified as a rookie system, if pvp is to be banned there. Perhaps we should start moving there to have our trade hubs.

I think the Caldari rookie system is very close to Jita, so ... hm.


They're all dead end systems, and the protection ends at the system just right next door...

Besides, if Serenity taught us anything it's that Jita's now the Place, even though the reasons for it being the Place have long since fled.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#587 - 2012-06-22 05:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrr Woodcock
RubyPorto wrote:
[quote=
What we are saying is that a rule which BOTH allows PvP in rookie systems AND fails to define "rookie" causes harm to rookies and everyone else involved. CCP has proposed such a rule.



They haven't proposed a rule. They have made a new rule, that applies. You just don't like it. Someone should re post what the senior GM said. It is a rule! Additionally, it is an enforced rule, handled on a case by case basis.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#588 - 2012-06-22 05:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
[quote=
What we are saying is that a rule which BOTH allows PvP in rookie systems AND fails to define "rookie" causes harm to rookies and everyone else involved. CCP has proposed such a rule.



They haven't proposed a rule. They have made a new rule, that applies. You just don't like it. Someone should re post what the senior GM said. It is a rule!


Ok, they've made a rule that's terrible (then asked for help in fixing it, implying that the rule is not carved into stone tablets that came from on High). How does the fact that they actually implemented it make it a better rule?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#589 - 2012-06-22 05:28:27 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Alright, instead of arguing this any further. Here one for you guys. I am sure that most of you understand our goals, now assuming you had ZERO development time, how would YOU word a policy that achieves these goals?


They were asking for wording to reflect the goals. To reflect the goals implied or other wise, as stated in previous posts, it's very clear, simply read it. They never ask anyone for help fixing the rule or the goal. FYI
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#590 - 2012-06-22 05:30:37 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
[quote=
What we are saying is that a rule which BOTH allows PvP in rookie systems AND fails to define "rookie" causes harm to rookies and everyone else involved. CCP has proposed such a rule.



They haven't proposed a rule. They have made a new rule, that applies. You just don't like it. Someone should re post what the senior GM said. It is a rule!


Ok, they've made a rule that's terrible (then asked for help in fixing it, implying that the rule is not carved into stone tablets that came from on High). How does the fact that they actually implemented it make it a better rule?


I think you should go back and re read the posts from the Senior GM. It clearly said the rule, and the goal for the rule, was not up for debate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#591 - 2012-06-22 05:30:49 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Alright, instead of arguing this any further. Here one for you guys. I am sure that most of you understand our goals, now assuming you had ZERO development time, how would YOU word a policy that achieves these goals?


They were asking for wording to reflect the goals. To reflect the goals implied or other wise, as stated in previous posts, it's very clear, simply read it. They never ask anyone for help fixing the rule or the goal. FYI


Yes. Their goal is quite clear. "Protect Rookies."

We are all on the same page with the goal. Pointing out the fact that their rule fails to meet their goal in any way while proposing a new rule is the definition of helping achieve said goal.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#592 - 2012-06-22 05:35:58 UTC
GM Zerat wrote:
There is currently a blanket ban on can baiting in rookie systems, I just wanted to bring that up as many players make this mistake.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
Warning: Can Flipping in Rookie Systems is considered Griefing.

So if you are thinking about can baiting only older players in those systems, please do not.


Also in regard to veteran players in beginner system. Just so ya know.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#593 - 2012-06-22 05:40:10 UTC
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
GM Zerat wrote:
There is currently a blanket ban on can baiting in rookie systems, I just wanted to bring that up as many players make this mistake.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
Warning: Can Flipping in Rookie Systems is considered Griefing.

So if you are thinking about can baiting only older players in those systems, please do not.


Also in regard to veteran players in beginner system. Just so ya know.


That covers only can baiting. "Messing with" covereth a multitude of other sins.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#594 - 2012-06-22 05:40:15 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Ok, this seems to be getting out of hand and our rulings are pulled out of context. So let me state this in the most simple terms possible.

1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.
3. None but new PLAYERS are protected by CCP in any way.
4. If new PLAYERS keep getting harassed the list of systems may be expanded.
5. Players cannot see which characters are new PLAYERS and which are old players with new CHARACTERS; game masters CAN see this and we act accordingly.
6. It is impossible to define what a new PLAYER is in a way that is comprehensible, to the point and without loop holes, in addition to our players able to apply these rules to their fellow players around them. This means that we will not provide a hard definition to our player base, however game masters internally can apply these rules consistently and without bias.
7. In general do NOT mess around with new PLAYERS; anyone else is fair game.

The above guidelines are not up for discussion and they will not be further clarified. If you need further clarification you are probably doing something you should not be doing.


Just trying to help.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#595 - 2012-06-22 05:42:55 UTC
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:

The above guidelines are not up for discussion and they will not be further clarified. If you need further clarification you are probably doing something you should not be doing.


Just trying to help.


Later, she discusses it further and asks for help clarifying the guidelines. (In the post you quoted above, in fact)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#596 - 2012-06-22 05:45:24 UTC
So with this said, I completely expect to see an awful lot of very strong PVP players to start hovering around, and following rookie players leaving these protected systems, and letting them have it. Watch what happens next. Can you say expanded rookie systems.
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#597 - 2012-06-22 05:47:41 UTC
now assuming you had ZERO development time, how would YOU word a policy that achieves these goals?

Please read this more clearly, anything there about guidlines? how would YOU word a policy that achieves these goals?
The guidelines are already defined Ruby.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#598 - 2012-06-22 05:48:25 UTC
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
So with this said, I completely expect to see an awful lot of very strong PVP players to start hovering around, and following rookie players leaving these protected systems, and letting them have it. Watch what happens next. Can you say expanded rookie systems.

Oh my, you mean incrementally rolling out increased protection via GM to other areas of highsec?

...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#599 - 2012-06-22 05:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrr Woodcock
Wouldn't you agree the best thing to do, is just leave them alone? Or else. That's how I red this. Probably a good thing not to mess with it. Just saying.

In case your missing the point, I really really don't think we need more Rookie systems. Do you?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#600 - 2012-06-22 05:52:24 UTC
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
now assuming you had ZERO development time, how would YOU word a policy that achieves these goals?

Please read this more clearly, anything there about guidlines? how would YOU word a policy that achieves these goals?
The guidelines are already defined Ruby.


The goal is to protect rookies in rookie systems. The easiest policy to achieve that goal is "Don't mess with anyone in Rookie systems."

"Don't Mess with Rookies in Rookie systems" fails to achieve the goal because it's unworkable and doesn't prevent rookies from being messed with.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon