These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP - Rookie System Rules Clarification

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#561 - 2012-06-21 18:13:37 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
think back to your first time playing eve being a day or 2 old and the things you used to do back then that now you look back on and go "wtf was i thinking?" generaly newbies have NO clue on a lot of things including how agression etc works, concord intervention etc. basicly complete newbies are just that, newbies with no idea.
too harsh from the get go and newbies aren't going to stick round and learn this game and long term lack of new subscribers WILL hurt eve as a whole.
…and that's why they need to be taught, not be tricked into playing a game that doesn't work the way the game actually works. It's also the reason why the rules need to be clear: because otherwise they'll be impossible for the newbies to understand (even more so than for the older players).

That is something drastically different from making such wide and imprecise policies that they actually reduce the protection of newbies and increase the protection of older players, who'll know enough to abuse the hell out of those wide margins.

Does EVE's NPE leave something to be desired? Yes. That is not reason to have the GMs operate on fundamentally flawed and counter-productive policies that break more than they solve; it's a reason to fix the NPE.

Quote:
PS if you REALLY want to gank newbies that badly
…why are people going on about with idiocy? Is reading really that hard?
Blastcaps Madullier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#562 - 2012-06-21 18:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Blastcaps Madullier
Tippia wrote:
]…and that's why they need to be taught, not be tricked into playing a game that doesn't work the way the game actually works. It's also the reason why the rules need to be clear: because otherwise they'll be impossible for the newbies to understand (even more so than for the older players).


by that definition your also saying you'd be happy for babies to play with matches not knowing how things work etc ie fire burns and hurts among other things, and by playing with said matches they'd learn. cause in some sense newbies are exactly that, they dont KNOW

basically altering the NPE so it teaches newbies things like that would be better, than them jumping through the gate doing the tutorial mission and someone who's say a 6 year old player/toon blows them up the moment they appear, "just because I can" or "just for s**ts and giggles" at newbies expense.

End of the day newbies impressions of eve from the get go will decide whether they stay or quit and before you say well good riddance consider this, eve NEEDS to keep attracting new players to thrive, too harsh initialy and newbie players will just say f**k it and leave, we all KNOW eve has a high learning curve and is harsh at times and doesn't have cotton wool padding most other mmorpgs has, but there comes a point with regards to new players where it becomes too harsh and ultimately ends up costing eve in terms of new players, new subs etc etc.

Tippia wrote:
]Does EVE's NPE leave something to be desired? Yes. That is not reason to have the GMs operate on fundamentally flawed and counter-productive policies that break more than they solve; it's a reason to fix the NPE.


agreed on the fixing the NPE, like removing duplicate skillbooks awarded from multiple different career agents, however i'd have to disagree somewhat on the part about the GMs, your referring to policy about newbie systems, as i said in a earlier post, the devs/GMs can keep rewording the policy till the cows come home and someone will STILL find a loophole in the wording and a way to exploit it.
Herr Hammer Draken
#563 - 2012-06-21 23:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
SOme people want segregated rookie space. Well we have that already a list of systems that are considered rookie space.
WHy do people find it so hard to avoid those areas of space? As a side note go to some of these starter systems and count the number of can flippers working the system. There are many in everyone. Go one system away where it is totally legal to can flip and you will not see a single can flipper there.

Now I ask why is that the case? Why is everybody interested in can flipping only in rookie systems? Answer because those are the only systems in which can flipping works. Because that is where the rookies are. But it is also illegal there.
Just about every post I see is about what experienced players can do and get away with in rookie systems.
It seems to me that the ONLY place in EVE that players are having fun is griefing newbies in starter systems.
If that is not the case for you then simply avoid those few systems. There is nothing critical in those systems except gulible newbies.
If gulible newbies is your only source of fun in this game...well I do not want to go there.

Basically the GM's have said do not mess with the rookies.
How is it that statement is so hard to understand?
Because you all just want to mess with the rookies so bad it hurts.
I think EVE needs a new occupation, newbie griefer!
So many of you just have to do this to get your daily fix.
It is more than your occupation it is a drug addiction for those that do it.

You all can mess with them as soon as they move one system away.
But nobody does.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#564 - 2012-06-21 23:39:09 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
SOme people want segregated rookie space. Well we have that already a list of systems that are considered rookie space.
WHy do people find it so hard to avoid those areas of space? As a side note go to some of these starter systems and count the number of can flippers working the system. There are many in everyone. Go one system away where it is totally legal to can flip and you will not see a single can flipper there.

Now I ask why is that the case? Why is everybody interested in can flipping only in rookie systems? Answer because those are the only systems in which can flipping works. Because that is where the rookies are. But it is also illegal there.
Just about every post I see is about what experienced players can do and get away with in rookie systems.
It seems to me that the ONLY place in EVE that players are having fun is griefing newbies in starter systems.
If that is not the case for you then simply avoid those few systems. There is nothing critical in those systems except gulible newbies.
If gulible newbies is your only source of fun in this game...well I do not want to go there.

Basically the GM's have said do not mess with the rookies.
How is it that statement is so hard to understand?
Because you all just want to mess with the rookies so bad it hurts.

You all can mess with them as soon as they move one system away.
But nobody does.


Right now, it is perfectly legal to mess with people in rookie systems, so long as they are not a (nebulously defined) rookie. Since there are legal targets in rookie systems, simply telling people to avoid systems with legal targets is ridiculous (also, one rookie system is POSable). The remaining options are to make the line between legal and illegal targets very clear (so that illegal targets aren't targeted by mistake) or make all targets in the system illegal by virtue of being in the system (but you have to enforce it, and probably prevent POSes from going up).

Nobody in this thread wants rookies messed with. Stop accusing us of wanting otherwise.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Herr Hammer Draken
#565 - 2012-06-21 23:50:22 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
SOme people want segregated rookie space. Well we have that already a list of systems that are considered rookie space.
WHy do people find it so hard to avoid those areas of space? As a side note go to some of these starter systems and count the number of can flippers working the system. There are many in everyone. Go one system away where it is totally legal to can flip and you will not see a single can flipper there.

Now I ask why is that the case? Why is everybody interested in can flipping only in rookie systems? Answer because those are the only systems in which can flipping works. Because that is where the rookies are. But it is also illegal there.
Just about every post I see is about what experienced players can do and get away with in rookie systems.
It seems to me that the ONLY place in EVE that players are having fun is griefing newbies in starter systems.
If that is not the case for you then simply avoid those few systems. There is nothing critical in those systems except gulible newbies.
If gulible newbies is your only source of fun in this game...well I do not want to go there.

Basically the GM's have said do not mess with the rookies.
How is it that statement is so hard to understand?
Because you all just want to mess with the rookies so bad it hurts.

You all can mess with them as soon as they move one system away.
But nobody does.


Right now, it is perfectly legal to mess with people in rookie systems, so long as they are not a (nebulously defined) rookie. Since there are legal targets in rookie systems, simply telling people to avoid systems with legal targets is ridiculous (also, one rookie system is POSable). The remaining options are to make the line between legal and illegal targets very clear (so that illegal targets aren't targeted by mistake) or make all targets in the system illegal by virtue of being in the system (but you have to enforce it, and probably prevent POSes from going up).

Nobody in this thread wants rookies messed with. Stop accusing us of wanting otherwise.


You are kidding me right. How many thousands of systems are in EVE?
The GM's listed what 9 I think rookie systems.
You are telling me those 9 systems are critical to your game play?!
Really?

This is what it is about. If the experience players avoided rookie systems then only rookies would be in rookie systems
in the first place thus you have no reason to go there in the first place except to grief rookies.
Ok maybe we want to go back into those to do the other races tutorials.
No biggie. So go do them.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#566 - 2012-06-21 23:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:


You are kidding me right. How many thousands of systems are in EVE?
The GM's listed what 9 I think rookie systems.
You are telling me those 9 systems are critical to your game play?!
Really?

This is what it is about. If the experience players avoided rookie systems then only rookies would be in rookie systems
in the first place thus you have no reason to go there in the first place except to grief rookies.
Ok maybe we want to go back into those to do the other races tutorials.
No biggie. So go do them.



My suggestion is, and has always been, to ban "messing with anyone" in Rookie systems (and only rookie systems). Ideally, CCP would also get rid of the veld belts (and any anoms that could spawn there, but whatever) to prevent useful economic activity from happening. Oh, and if you implement this rule, you have to enforce it as written, or people will probe it to find the hidden, real rule, an activity which will likely involve much rookie-baiting (EvE players figure out hidden rules like junkies chase dragons).

If you want a rule that is less all-encompassing, you must define the protected class precisely, or you open the rule up to terrible abuse and will fail to actually protect rookies.

Unless it is a rule that rookie systems are completely off limits, why should anyone limit their gameplay to avoid a system that has legitimate targets?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Herr Hammer Draken
#567 - 2012-06-22 00:02:41 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:


You are kidding me right. How many thousands of systems are in EVE?
The GM's listed what 9 I think rookie systems.
You are telling me those 9 systems are critical to your game play?!
Really?

This is what it is about. If the experience players avoided rookie systems then only rookies would be in rookie systems
in the first place thus you have no reason to go there in the first place except to grief rookies.
Ok maybe we want to go back into those to do the other races tutorials.
No biggie. So go do them.



My suggestion is, and has always been, to ban "messing with anyone" in Rookie systems (and only rookie systems). Ideally, CCP would also get rid of the veld belts (and any anoms that could spawn there, but whatever) to prevent useful economic activity from happening. Oh, and if you implement this rule, you have to enforce it as written, or people will probe it to find the hidden, real rule, an activity which will likely involve much rookie-baiting (EvE players figure out hidden rules like junkies chase dragons).

If you want a rule that is less all-encompassing, you must define the protected class precisely, or you open the rule up to terrible abuse and will fail to actually protect rookies.

Unless it is a rule that rookie systems are completely off limits, why should anyone limit their gameplay to avoid a system that has legitimate targets?


And in the end this is what it is all about. Easy targets in those rookie systems. Just about every post in this thread is about players trying to figure out how they can get at those easy targets. How far they can bend the rule in their favor before it breaks just to get at those easy targets. Nobody just is willing to leave those systems alone because they simply can't they need their fix.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#568 - 2012-06-22 00:17:34 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:


You are kidding me right. How many thousands of systems are in EVE?
The GM's listed what 9 I think rookie systems.
You are telling me those 9 systems are critical to your game play?!
Really?

This is what it is about. If the experience players avoided rookie systems then only rookies would be in rookie systems
in the first place thus you have no reason to go there in the first place except to grief rookies.
Ok maybe we want to go back into those to do the other races tutorials.
No biggie. So go do them.



My suggestion is, and has always been, to ban "messing with anyone" in Rookie systems (and only rookie systems). Ideally, CCP would also get rid of the veld belts (and any anoms that could spawn there, but whatever) to prevent useful economic activity from happening. Oh, and if you implement this rule, you have to enforce it as written, or people will probe it to find the hidden, real rule, an activity which will likely involve much rookie-baiting (EvE players figure out hidden rules like junkies chase dragons).

If you want a rule that is less all-encompassing, you must define the protected class precisely, or you open the rule up to terrible abuse and will fail to actually protect rookies.

Unless it is a rule that rookie systems are completely off limits, why should anyone limit their gameplay to avoid a system that has legitimate targets?


And in the end this is what it is all about. Easy targets in those rookie systems. Just about every post in this thread is about players trying to figure out how they can get at those easy targets. How far they can bend the rule in their favor before it breaks just to get at those easy targets. Nobody just is willing to leave those systems alone because they simply can't they need their fix.


1) You might want to read the whole post before hitting that reply button.

2) Only the people wanting to make rules based on loose definitions of the protected class are trying to make bendable rules. My proposal is easy to understand, concrete, protects everyone in the protected class, and has no bend in it at all.

3) EvE is a PvP game. It is perfectly legitimate to go after targets because they make themselves easy marks. Refusing to protect rookies effectively just means that it becomes impossible to distinguish between targets that are easy because they make themselves so or because they haven't had the opportunity to learn. The fact that you don't like someone's target selection doesn't make their legitimate in game actions illegitimate.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Herr Hammer Draken
#569 - 2012-06-22 00:29:10 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:


You are kidding me right. How many thousands of systems are in EVE?
The GM's listed what 9 I think rookie systems.
You are telling me those 9 systems are critical to your game play?!
Really?

This is what it is about. If the experience players avoided rookie systems then only rookies would be in rookie systems
in the first place thus you have no reason to go there in the first place except to grief rookies.
Ok maybe we want to go back into those to do the other races tutorials.
No biggie. So go do them.



My suggestion is, and has always been, to ban "messing with anyone" in Rookie systems (and only rookie systems). Ideally, CCP would also get rid of the veld belts (and any anoms that could spawn there, but whatever) to prevent useful economic activity from happening. Oh, and if you implement this rule, you have to enforce it as written, or people will probe it to find the hidden, real rule, an activity which will likely involve much rookie-baiting (EvE players figure out hidden rules like junkies chase dragons).

If you want a rule that is less all-encompassing, you must define the protected class precisely, or you open the rule up to terrible abuse and will fail to actually protect rookies.

Unless it is a rule that rookie systems are completely off limits, why should anyone limit their gameplay to avoid a system that has legitimate targets?


And in the end this is what it is all about. Easy targets in those rookie systems. Just about every post in this thread is about players trying to figure out how they can get at those easy targets. How far they can bend the rule in their favor before it breaks just to get at those easy targets. Nobody just is willing to leave those systems alone because they simply can't they need their fix.


1) You might want to read the whole post before hitting that reply button.

2) Only the people wanting to make rules based on loose definitions of the protected class are trying to make bendable rules. My proposal is easy to understand, concrete, protects everyone in the protected class, and has no bend in it at all.

3) EvE is a PvP game. It is perfectly legitimate to go after targets because they make themselves easy marks. Refusing to protect rookies effectively just means that it becomes impossible to distinguish between targets that are easy because they make themselves so or because they haven't had the opportunity to learn. The fact that you don't like someone's target selection doesn't make their legitimate in game actions illegitimate.


I am not the person you have to convince that your target was legitimate. The GM is when they are about to ban you for your actions, going after easy targets has a cost. A bannable cost if you get the wrong one. And I for one am not about to even propose to make your target selection easier. If you can not figure it out for yourself then you deserve what ever happens.
The game has clear enough boundries for everyone except the griefer by trade. I do not feel any simpathy for their plight.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#570 - 2012-06-22 00:57:26 UTC
Same rules as raising teenagers:
-If you think you've found a loophole, you haven't.
-If you think you're clever, you're not.
-If have to ask if it breaks rules, it does.
-If you like it, it's not allowed.Lol

If you can kill it without risk, it's a rookie. Simple. Go find targets that poses risk.Big smile
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#571 - 2012-06-22 01:33:57 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Same rules as raising teenagers:
-If you think you've found a loophole, you haven't.
-If you think you're clever, you're not.
-If have to ask if it breaks rules, it does.
-If you like it, it's not allowed.Lol

If you can kill it without risk, it's a rookie. Simple. Go find targets that poses risk.Big smile


EvE Players are an average of ~28 years old. We choose to play in a sandbox.

Being underage is equivalent to being in a themepark MMO; you are protected, but you have limited potential.
Being an adult is equivalent to EvE; you are not protected, but you have unlimited potential.

Suggesting that CCP use those rules on EvE is hilariously stupid.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#572 - 2012-06-22 01:37:49 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

1) You might want to read the whole post before hitting that reply button.

2) Only the people wanting to make rules based on loose definitions of the protected class are trying to make bendable rules. My proposal is easy to understand, concrete, protects everyone in the protected class, and has no bend in it at all.

3) EvE is a PvP game. It is perfectly legitimate to go after targets because they make themselves easy marks. Refusing to protect rookies effectively just means that it becomes impossible to distinguish between targets that are easy because they make themselves so or because they haven't had the opportunity to learn. The fact that you don't like someone's target selection doesn't make their legitimate in game actions illegitimate.


I am not the person you have to convince that your target was legitimate. The GM is when they are about to ban you for your actions, going after easy targets has a cost. A bannable cost if you get the wrong one. And I for one am not about to even propose to make your target selection easier. If you can not figure it out for yourself then you deserve what ever happens.
The game has clear enough boundries for everyone except the griefer by trade. I do not feel any simpathy for their plight.


So you want rule landmines. Landmines kill babies. Do you want to kill babies?

Seriously, which is the GOAL of the newbie protections;
a) Ban people who gank newbies
OR
b) Protect Newbies from being ganked

If you answered b), you're right, and the following applies.
If target selection to avoid newbies is impossible, newbies will get ganked. Thus making target selection to avoid newbies easy is a good thing.

If you answered a), you're wrong and should feel bad because you hate newbies.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Herr Hammer Draken
#573 - 2012-06-22 01:51:42 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

1) You might want to read the whole post before hitting that reply button.

2) Only the people wanting to make rules based on loose definitions of the protected class are trying to make bendable rules. My proposal is easy to understand, concrete, protects everyone in the protected class, and has no bend in it at all.

3) EvE is a PvP game. It is perfectly legitimate to go after targets because they make themselves easy marks. Refusing to protect rookies effectively just means that it becomes impossible to distinguish between targets that are easy because they make themselves so or because they haven't had the opportunity to learn. The fact that you don't like someone's target selection doesn't make their legitimate in game actions illegitimate.


I am not the person you have to convince that your target was legitimate. The GM is when they are about to ban you for your actions, going after easy targets has a cost. A bannable cost if you get the wrong one. And I for one am not about to even propose to make your target selection easier. If you can not figure it out for yourself then you deserve what ever happens.
The game has clear enough boundries for everyone except the griefer by trade. I do not feel any simpathy for their plight.


So you want rule landmines. Landmines kill babies. Do you want to kill babies?

Seriously, which is the GOAL of the newbie protections;
a) Ban people who gank newbies
OR
b) Protect Newbies from being ganked

If you answered b), you're right, and the following applies.
If target selection to avoid newbies is impossible, newbies will get ganked. Thus making target selection to avoid newbies easy is a good thing.

If you answered a), you're wrong and should feel bad because you hate newbies.


You sound just like a griefer that needs his fix to me. But you try so hard to mask it, to not be that guy.
Either that or you have Asperger syndrome and your need for rules and guidlines and winning arguments overrides
everything else.

You are so tenacious with this you must have a duck in this fight. Otherwise why would you care?
Or you have Aspergers. And then I understand your need.

And what is this stupid a leads to b bit? You create something which makes no sense at all.
The GM's will take care of all of your problems in your scenario, Rookies get their ships back and some players get banned.
I can live fine with that can you? I know you can not that is why you keep after this thing. Like a dog with its favorite bone.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#574 - 2012-06-22 01:56:51 UTC
Jeeze Louise, this topic still active?

Over 5000 star systems as well as 2500 wormhole systems in the Eve Universe and you gotta look for kills in the Rookie systems? Seems some players just don't get it.

If you need to have a definite line drawn so you'll know just exactly how far you can go before crossing it, then you're the reason these rules have been implemented. As such, the ban hammer needs to strike you down really fast as an example to others.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#575 - 2012-06-22 02:13:03 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

So you want rule landmines. Landmines kill babies. Do you want to kill babies?

Seriously, which is the GOAL of the newbie protections;
a) Ban people who gank newbies
OR
b) Protect Newbies from being ganked

If you answered b), you're right, and the following applies.
If target selection to avoid newbies is impossible, newbies will get ganked. Thus making target selection to avoid newbies easy is a good thing.

If you answered a), you're wrong and should feel bad because you hate newbies.


You sound just like a griefer that needs his fix to me. But you try so hard to mask it, to not be that guy.
Either that or you have Asperger syndrome and your need for rules and guidlines and winning arguments overrides
everything else.

You are so tenacious with this you must have a duck in this fight. Otherwise why would you care?
Or you have Aspergers. And then I understand your need.

And what is this stupid a leads to b bit? You create something which makes no sense at all.
The GM's will take care of all of your problems in your scenario, Rookies get their ships back and some players get banned.
I can live fine with that can you? I know you can not that is why you keep after this thing. Like a dog with its favorite bone.


I do have a duck in the fight. I like newbies staying, thus I want them to be effectively protected in the first stages of their career. My duck is that newbies staying = more people in EvE leading to (maybe) a better EvE.

They get their ships back, but they've had a negative experience (and learned the wrong lesson from it). Griefers get banned and either quit (because it was an honest error brought out from shittacular rules) or roll a new alt because they don't care.

Also, that assumes the newbie knows enough to petition the loss.

I'll go ahead and repeat, since you apparently can't read; if target selection (in places where selecting targets is perfectly legal) to avoid protected newbies is impossible, (supposedly) protected newbies will get hurt. This is a bad thing.

This is why things like the Endangered Species act don't say "all species that are endangered" and let regulators punish activity later, they list the actual species.

As for the personal attacks, Let's avoid those, shall we?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Herr Hammer Draken
#576 - 2012-06-22 02:24:14 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

So you want rule landmines. Landmines kill babies. Do you want to kill babies?

Seriously, which is the GOAL of the newbie protections;
a) Ban people who gank newbies
OR
b) Protect Newbies from being ganked

If you answered b), you're right, and the following applies.
If target selection to avoid newbies is impossible, newbies will get ganked. Thus making target selection to avoid newbies easy is a good thing.

If you answered a), you're wrong and should feel bad because you hate newbies.


You sound just like a griefer that needs his fix to me. But you try so hard to mask it, to not be that guy.
Either that or you have Asperger syndrome and your need for rules and guidlines and winning arguments overrides
everything else.

You are so tenacious with this you must have a duck in this fight. Otherwise why would you care?
Or you have Aspergers. And then I understand your need.

And what is this stupid a leads to b bit? You create something which makes no sense at all.
The GM's will take care of all of your problems in your scenario, Rookies get their ships back and some players get banned.
I can live fine with that can you? I know you can not that is why you keep after this thing. Like a dog with its favorite bone.


I do have a duck in the fight. I like newbies staying, thus I want them to be effectively protected in the first stages of their career. My duck is that newbies staying = more people in EvE leading to (maybe) a better EvE.

They get their ships back, but they've had a negative experience (and learned the wrong lesson from it). Griefers get banned and either quit (because it was an honest error brought out from shittacular rules) or roll a new alt because they don't care.

Also, that assumes the newbie knows enough to petition the loss.

I'll go ahead and repeat, since you apparently can't read; if target selection (in places where selecting targets is perfectly legal) to avoid protected newbies is impossible, (supposedly) protected newbies will get hurt. This is a bad thing.

This is why things like the Endangered Species act don't say "all species that are endangered" and let regulators punish activity later, they list the actual species.

As for the personal attacks, Let's avoid those, shall we?


Oh my it was not a personal attack. It was to clarify why your behavior is not normal. And now I know. It is not your fault.
I am sorry.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#577 - 2012-06-22 02:46:26 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Jeeze Louise, this topic still active?

Over 5000 star systems as well as 2500 wormhole systems in the Eve Universe and you gotta look for kills in the Rookie systems? Seems some players just don't get it.

If you need to have a definite line drawn so you'll know just exactly how far you can go before crossing it, then you're the reason these rules have been implemented. As such, the ban hammer needs to strike you down really fast as an example to others.


You seem to miss the point.


OTHER people need that line, because they cross it every day. Just go into any rookie system and take a look.

That is what Tippia and Ruby are fighting for. To make it easier on those rookies and so that we as players have a definite (or close to it) rule so we can report folks with an expectation that something will be done and we aren't simply misunderstanding.


Oh, and death to rookie killers. Too bad my PvP skills are terrible, or I would go bait some baiters.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#578 - 2012-06-22 02:50:59 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Jeeze Louise, this topic still active?

Over 5000 star systems as well as 2500 wormhole systems in the Eve Universe and you gotta look for kills in the Rookie systems? Seems some players just don't get it.

If you need to have a definite line drawn so you'll know just exactly how far you can go before crossing it, then you're the reason these rules have been implemented. As such, the ban hammer needs to strike you down really fast as an example to others.


You seem to miss the point.


OTHER people need that line, because they cross it every day. Just go into any rookie system and take a look.

That is what Tippia and Ruby are fighting for. To make it easier on those rookies and so that we as players have a definite (or close to it) rule so we can report folks with an expectation that something will be done and we aren't simply misunderstanding.


Oh, and death to rookie killers. Too bad my PvP skills are terrible, or I would go bait some baiters.


Don't get close to that line. When you get that smug feeling... leave. See? Easy.Big smile
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#579 - 2012-06-22 02:52:54 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:


Oh my it was not a personal attack. It was to clarify why your behavior is not normal. And now I know. It is not your fault.
I am sorry.

His behavior is perfectly normal for someone who wants to protect rookies. The current setup is inadequate.


Also you seem to not understand Asperger's very well. Aspie's need for rules to be defined comes from their inability to pick up on those rules in social situations.
This issue would not apply here. Rather than being expected to pick up on it, CCP has already provided the rule. For an Aspie like me, that rule is sufficient to form my own conclusions. I tend to take my personal rules a bit farther than I think CCP would, but better safe than sorry as the saying goes.

But there are others who like killing rookies, and so when the rule is vague as it is now, they take advantage of that to get their kicks. This is why the rules need to be more definitive.
Herr Hammer Draken
#580 - 2012-06-22 03:08:05 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:


Oh my it was not a personal attack. It was to clarify why your behavior is not normal. And now I know. It is not your fault.
I am sorry.

His behavior is perfectly normal for someone who wants to protect rookies. The current setup is inadequate.


Also you seem to not understand Asperger's very well. Aspie's need for rules to be defined comes from their inability to pick up on those rules in social situations.
This issue would not apply here. Rather than being expected to pick up on it, CCP has already provided the rule. For an Aspie like me, that rule is sufficient to form my own conclusions. I tend to take my personal rules a bit farther than I think CCP would, but better safe than sorry as the saying goes.

But there are others who like killing rookies, and so when the rule is vague as it is now, they take advantage of that to get their kicks. This is why the rules need to be more definitive.


Um no they do not need to be more definitive. They work well enough right now. The GM's are in control and enforce it well enough thank you. But you also made my point thank you. You are one that needs the rule clairified because of your need to have rules. In fact you will not find a single person with Asperger's that will say the rule is good enough the way it is right now.
Nope not one. It is the way you are wired.

Those that like killing rookies will get banned. That is good enough for me. Rookies will get there ships back.
Perhaps if anything needs to be done it would be to notify the rookies in the tutorial how to petition a GM should they become a victim of this. End of story.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"