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CCP - Rookie System Rules Clarification

First post First post First post
Author
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#541 - 2012-06-18 10:10:55 UTC
A lot of older players come to the starter systems because they take advantage of the mining missions. Mucho Pyro to be had. I constantly see groups of hulks/orca running these missions.

Any older player dropping a can in starter systems can be banned. No matter if you fight an older player or a rookie, it's not allowed - so it doesn't really matter how old someone is in the starter systems. No 'can' pvp is allowed.

Also can baiting/flip a rookie on the SOE epic arc mission is a bannable offence. How do we know they are on the epic arc? We don't. But there are players that specifically target rookies on the SOE arc.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#542 - 2012-06-18 16:06:08 UTC
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
I think banning is a little stiff. I totally support bouncing the criminal straight to low sec, with a -10. Then simply not allowing the gates to even let them back in, till they recover there security status. The gates simply don't work for them. Return the rookies ship and what ever he or she may have lost.

Additionally no docking in high sec till, said security status is fixed.


1) Wrong thread, this isn't a suicide gank whine thread.

2) The idea is bad and you should feel bad.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Mrr Woodcock
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#543 - 2012-06-18 17:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrr Woodcock
So you would prefer the person is banned, Ruby?

I agree wrong thread. I'll shut up.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#544 - 2012-06-18 19:35:38 UTC
Mrr Woodcock wrote:
So you would prefer the person is banned, Ruby?

I agree wrong thread. I'll shut up.


For messing with newbies? I think the current policy of warning and banning those people is fine. However, we all need to be clear on precisely who is protected.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#545 - 2012-06-19 00:28:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Hammer Crendraven
I did not know Arnon was on the protected list. So if I complain to a GM about the 2 can flipers that got me last month in Arnon when I was only weeks old then I can get them baned. Hmm and it so happens they both have posted in threads like this one recently as well. I can see the fear they have in their posts. They are guilty of this and it is not just me, they have done this repeatedly to many rookies in Arnon. It is what they do daily. The people that do this do it as a way of life. Grief on the newbies.
I think the GM's know this as well. That is why they come down on them so hard. It is never just one mistake like some of these posters want you to believe. They prey upon the rookies as a way of life and are most upset that the GM's are making their playstyle off limits.

P.S. The GM said in red outlined text can flippers are griefing new players in starter systems (and that is not allowed) and then went on to name the starter systems which includes Arnon. As of right now this very moment in time there are at least 30 can flippers working Arnon. The GM's can target 30 some players already for violation to this rule.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#546 - 2012-06-19 00:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Hammer Crendraven wrote:
I did not know Arnon was on the protected list. So if I complain to a GM about the 2 can flipers that got me last month in Arnon when I was only weeks old then I can get them baned. Hmm and it so happens they both have posted in threads like this one recently as well. I can see the fear they have in their posts. They are guilty of this and it is not just me, they have done this repeatedly to many rookies in Arnon. It is what they do daily. The people that do this do it as a way of life. Grief on the newbies.
I think the GM's know this as well. That is why they come down on them so hard. It is never just one mistake like some of these posters want you to believe. They prey upon the rookies as a way of life and are most upset that the GM's are making their playstyle off limits.

P.S. The GM said in red outlined text can flippers are griefing new players in starter systems (and that is not allowed) and then went on to name the starter systems which includes Arnon. As of right now this very moment in time there are at least 30 can flippers working Arnon. The GM's can target 30 some players already for violation to this rule.


Report 'em. I don't think anyone in this thread wants to see rookies messed with in rookie systems. We're just split on the best way to achieve the goal of "No rookies were harmed in the making of this rookie system."

Oh, and if they're ITT, Name 'n shame.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#547 - 2012-06-19 03:56:09 UTC
Figured it out yet?

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.

Grinder2210
ArrowStar Forces
#548 - 2012-06-19 08:24:19 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Alright, instead of arguing this any further. Here one for you guys. I am sure that most of you understand our goals, now assuming you had ZERO development time, how would YOU word a policy that achieves these goals?


I would give the players anything thay could use
1month 2 months 1 year

Dosnt matter the number what matters is have a clear line we shouldnt cross

Of corse gms would still need to work case to case
Some people killed under said number may have more than one accout more than one toon on there account and while thay may be playing on a young toon there still not bye any means a rookie

That part would be for the gms to decide
But at least with this number a player would be able to know without any dought if i attack this person i may have bad things happen to my account

Also ide like to ask about corp agro for instance ive gain corp aggrestion to a person in a player owned corp this person isnt a rookie but is doing a mission with or for a rookie
there both fireing on me Not killing the rookie may keep me form being able to blow up the none rookie should i worry about a ban here ?


Iskawa Zebrut
Smoke to Train - Train to Smoke
#549 - 2012-06-21 12:49:07 UTC
Jesus, you people...

Rookie: A player 14 days old or less, flying entry-level ships (frigates, low end cruisers/mining vessels). If said player has any other character or account older than 14 days they do not count as a rookie. Any protection void if the rookie started a conflict via smack talk (inviting you to shoot them, specifically) or aggression (do not engage unless they signal they wish to fight - for example, they take from your container and target lock you, or they say as such via smack).

Still some loopholes, but I have faith that the GMs will apply their own judgement in loophole cases. After all, enforcement of this would get a lot of special attention since it's an oppertunity for CCP to dip their fingers into peoples' wallets.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#550 - 2012-06-21 13:12:46 UTC
lots of pages, didnt read, but here:

a) properly inform newbies of the mechanics that allow others to shoot them
b) base it on something other than system alone, as there can be valid targets for ganking, baiting, stealing from, etc in newbie systems (and newbie systems aren't clearly marked to begin with - I certainly don't know them ALL - and to top it off it was recently extended to a few other systems, with further talk of extending it to lustrevik and hek, which is so ridiculously stupid I don't know where to start...)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#551 - 2012-06-21 15:19:07 UTC
Iskawa Zebrut wrote:
Jesus, you people...

Rookie: A player 14 days old or less, flying entry-level ships (frigates, low end cruisers/mining vessels). If said player has any other character or account older than 14 days they do not count as a rookie. Any protection void if the rookie started a conflict via smack talk (inviting you to shoot them, specifically) or aggression (do not engage unless they signal they wish to fight - for example, they take from your container and target lock you, or they say as such via smack).

Still some loopholes, but I have faith that the GMs will apply their own judgement in loophole cases. After all, enforcement of this would get a lot of special attention since it's an oppertunity for CCP to dip their fingers into peoples' wallets.


How do you, as a player, pick targets when part of the definition of the protected class is hidden from you? If you want to be able to allow combat (or other activities that would fall under "messing with") in rookie systems between non-"rookies," then the term "rookie" must be defined in a way that players can use. The alternative is much simpler and what I've been suggesting for a while. Until such a time as the Devs can stick a rookie-"don't shoot" tag on actual "rookies," ban combat of all kinds in rookie systems. You do have to enforce this strictly (as in warn people who shoot hulks there), or people will probe around to try to figure out the hidden definition of "rookie" and "mess with" a large number of rookies in the process.

Gamers figure out the rules of their game. EvE has a long history with hidden rules and mechanics, most all of which are now well understood.



Also, that can thing is can-baiting and is specifically banned in rookie systems, on top of the general ban on "messing with" "rookies."

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Yoshite McLulzypants
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#552 - 2012-06-21 15:49:51 UTC
This is a very easy question. You cannot fly anything but a tech 1 frigate or destroyer on a trial account (maybe a cruiser too?). If you see someone in any other ship then they have paid for an account, ccp has their money, fire away.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#553 - 2012-06-21 15:51:20 UTC
Yoshite McLulzypants wrote:
This is a very easy question. You cannot fly anything but a tech 1 frigate or destroyer on a trial account (maybe a cruiser too?). If you see someone in any other ship then they have paid for an account, ccp has their money, fire away.

Some people buy the account without a trial first.
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#554 - 2012-06-21 16:24:33 UTC

Quote:
I shall make this real simple: Do not mess with rookies in rookie systems in any way.


There is a coding solution to this issue. Vague rules pushed upon the community via non-in-game medium is not the way to approach this. My ability to gank rookies within the mechanics of your game is your problem, own it. Stop pushing the moderation of that activity back on your end user.

If the game allows it, it will be done. New people try new things every day in this game, which will routinely end in some rookie in some rookie system getting ganked. This is not the problem of either pilot, it is a CCP problem that CCP needs to address via the game and not moderation.

Quote:
They are still trying to figure out how to read the overview and how to right click; messing with them at that point in their career is something for bullies who have something to compensate for and only dare to pick on the smallest, weakest boy in kindergarten.



  • Sandbox
  • Bullies exist in all avenues of EVE, it is foundational for a PvP enviornment. The weak are prey. When they grow strong they will in turn become predators. Why interfere outside of nurturing your own financial interests? If the sole reason is to retain subscriptions, why risk these outcomes on behavioral altering? Simply code a solution and be done with it.
  • Rookies can be scammed for all they possess without consequence in Jita (4 jumps from a rookie system) but not have their Free Rookie Ships blown up without someone getting warned/banned. Which is worse? Which is more detrimental? Which behavior is more taboo when compared to all other MMOs on the planet? Recognize this flaw in logic.
  • The draw to this game for many (certainly not all) people is PvP with consequence. As you coddle your new player base, the PvP hungry subsect gets a watered down experience. Is this intended?
  • Sandbox
Spurty
#555 - 2012-06-21 16:29:19 UTC
Sentinel Smith wrote:
But I think.....


You are attempting to live above your station in life aren't you?

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP

Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#556 - 2012-06-21 16:34:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Fractal Muse
The problem for CCP's GM is this: If they define the rules specifically then the smart players of EVE will figure out ways to make use of any newbie immunity rules.

For example, if the definition for a 'rookie' is under 10 days played. What is to stop an experienced player from picking up a new account and making a new character on that new account and running high value cargo? Or going into the middle of 0.0 to cause some mischief?

Looking at the situation, there is something there that would indicate the new player as not a rookie. But, within the game's rule system they would be considered one.

So if time on the account doesn't work, how about skill points? We have the same problem. Veterans making new characters to make use of the rookie benefits.

To me this leaves two alternatives for EVE:

The first is to do what CCP is doing and leaving the definition of rookie open-ended and subject to interpretation in any given event. Unfortunately, this causes confusion for the players and creates "special" circumstances that are subject to calls of favoritism or unfairness.

The second, which I would prefer since it gets rid of the interpretation, is to create newbie starting zones. A small system that is not accessible from the EVE Universe as a whole. When a rookie feels ready to enter the game proper they go through a wormhole and can never go back. This start system would only be available to brand new accounts and only for a limited period. Alts would start in the existing corporation systems.

This way there are no questions about who is a newbie and who isn't. There is no confusion. And, rookies are 'protected' (in that they would only be up against other new characters with similar skills and resources - although nothing would stop veterans from creating brand new accounts to access the system) within the rookie system. The rookie system should have limited resources within it and it could force players out of it when they reach a certain skill point level.

There would need to be 'safe guards' to keep larger ships out of the rookie system. Perhaps the manufacturing could be restricted solely to what the initial manufacturing missions suggest. This would prevent players from creating manufacturing characters and building 'advanced' ships / stuff in the system.

I dunno, it seems to me that if CCP is serious about protecting new players and providing them with a positive new player experience they need to revamp their new game experience. To me, this has always been where EVE Online is weak. I would love to see retention numbers of new player accounts.

There is a lot more that could be done to make EVE Online more appealing / attention grabbing for new players. The revamp to the initial missions was a great step but it isn't enough. More can and should be done.
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#557 - 2012-06-21 16:41:04 UTC
Fractal,

I like your idea of segregated rookie space. It could be approached in a very cool way. Something like 'you have to escape rookie space' via skill and intro events.

Veteran player on alts would be able to navigate that very quickly and it would let every new player ramp up to a base level of skill and knowledge before exposing them to the like of... me.

I'm all for a change like that. But as it sits, I can go to rookie space, bait and kill them and that is exactly what I intend to keep doing.
Blastcaps Madullier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#558 - 2012-06-21 17:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Blastcaps Madullier
Trappist Monk wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

b) continue short list of Exceptions, like initiating a suicide gank, or whatever. Take these from the publicly viewable information used in your in house Newbie definition


That right there is the problem. We can probably write a list the size of a dictionary. So we will stick to case by case basis. The only issue left is the wording of the evelopedia page. I will see if I can raise the discussion on that internally, but a new wording may take a while.

what happened to considering my idea, since your long list (with the capitalized PLAYER and CHARACTER) seem to be responding to my argument.

Quote:
How about:

a straight rule for the vets, using an offical announcement:
* No PvP with, stealing from, can baiting, griefing, spamming, or scamming of new characters who are 14 days or less old in rookie systems.

for the "real" rookies, using a last page after character creation but before entering game (or, if that needs development time, using one of those warning message boxes for system events):
* EVE is based on non-consensual PvP. You will have limited protection from combat and piracy inside your starting system for 14 days. If you leave the starting system or your 14 days expire, you are a valid target and a willing participant.

No need for exceptions. You leave the system, you're a target. Feel free to change the # of days, but thats the same as a trial period.


one problem with that is one of the starter tutorial agents sends you out of system (basicly teaching you how to navigate from a-b in eve) one possibility is to give newbie accounts a flag that allows them to jump in and out of the starter systems, and gates set so if your a older char, you just simply CAN NOT jump into said system due to not having said flag and peronaly would say 30 days not 14, buddy invites are 21 days iirc and occasionaly ccp gives out 30 day trial keys, other option is ships trial accounts can NOT fly cant jump into system ie mining barges/exhumers which means you dont have older players sat in relative safety in a rookie system stripping out all the roids and leaving nothing for the newbie players (some of the tutorial agents require trit to complete, either directly as trit or indirectly as made items)
another option is players older than 30 days, if they jump into a rookie system or undocks in a rookie system (ie make older players leave and stay out of the rookie systems) is to have it so concord automaticaly shoots them, after that no older players are going to go near the rookie systems with a bargepole lol, problem solved with regards to older players, with regards to newbie chars doing it (ie older players) when they try to lock up people in the newbie systems have a large warning box coming up citing some examples of what is not allowed within the boundrys of a rookie system and that the actions their trying to initiate WILL result in a temp ban including other accounds that player may hold on eve, usualy peoples multiple accounts are linked in numerous ways so wont be hard in some cases for ccp to reach and temp ban most if not all of someones other accounts
and CCP could clarify the rules 7 ways to sunday and someone would STILL find a loophole in said clarified rules and exploit it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#559 - 2012-06-21 17:48:13 UTC
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
one problem with that is one of the starter tutorial agents sends you out of system (basicly teaching you how to navigate from a-b in eve)
That sounds like an excellent opportunity to teach them about the rules of the game, including things like not carrying everything they own in one ship…
Blastcaps Madullier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#560 - 2012-06-21 18:01:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:
one problem with that is one of the starter tutorial agents sends you out of system (basicly teaching you how to navigate from a-b in eve)
That sounds like an excellent opportunity to teach them about the rules of the game, including things like not carrying everything they own in one ship…



think back to your first time playing eve being a day or 2 old and the things you used to do back then that now you look back on and go "wtf was i thinking?" generaly newbies have NO clue on a lot of things including how agression etc works, concord intervention etc. basicly complete newbies are just that, newbies with no idea.
too harsh from the get go and newbies aren't going to stick round and learn this game and long term lack of new subscribers WILL hurt eve as a whole.
PS if you REALLY want to gank newbies that badly, why not just goto the lowsec system right next door to where the epic soe story arc npc - is based (Arnon)