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CCP - Did you miss the fanfest round table for FW?

First post
Author
Damassys Kadesh
Strix Ridens
Lock Range Enjoyers
#141 - 2011-10-07 06:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Damassys Kadesh
This is a hell of a discussion. I was just linked to it and I don't think I'll be able to catch up on the entire thing, but I thought I'd share something with all you FW fans. Since the announcement that FW changes are (hopefully) going to make it into the winter expansion, I checked to see if there has been a new thread created for suggestions to the Devs. There are many threads like this one floating around, but it would be nice to have one specifically for submitting your thoughts to the Devs, it be a fresh one based on the recent announcement, and located in the appropriate section.

There is such a thread located in the "Features and Ideas" section, where it won't be buried intensely like things are in "General Discussion".

So far it looks like people are sticking to submitting write-ups of their vision of FW, which is nice because although back-and-forth discussion is great, it can result in an extremely cluttered thread. So, do as you please, but consider that it may be more effective to copy this write-up format when posting.

Hope this is helpful, here it be:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18059

Sourem Itharen > Congratulations Lady Kadesh, you have been selected by trial of fire and blood, under the watchful eyes of God, to represent Lord Khanid as his champion in the Imperial Succession trials -YC117

Amun Khonsu
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#142 - 2011-10-07 09:17:57 UTC
Cearain wrote:


I think we agree on this.

If they fixed fw plexing then there would be allot more small scale combat. The plexes do not allow ships of various sizes in. So it tends to make it so there are not large blobs.

The reason you tend to see only see fw pilots in large blobs is because the plexing mechanic is broken. So with nothing to do people tend to just form a large blob and roam around. Of course there will still be blobbed after the plexing is fixed. But you will also have allot more small scale pvp too. Right now you get very little of that in fw or really anywhere in eve.


Agreed Big smile

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net

Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#143 - 2011-10-07 09:24:26 UTC
I honestly hate the idea of plexes, unless they are generated by players who decide to attack a certain system and thus setup a plex/forward command bases to start the invasion/start to take the system.

Having random plexes spawn about to orbit while they are capturing the flag with an npc or two present is of 0 interest to me. Purpose, focus and player management is.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

Amun Khonsu
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#144 - 2011-10-07 09:24:50 UTC
Damassys Kadesh wrote:


There is such a thread located in the "Features and Ideas" section, where it won't be buried intensely like things are in "General Discussion".

So far it looks like people are sticking to submitting write-ups of their vision of FW, which is nice because although back-and-forth discussion is great, it can result in an extremely cluttered thread. So, do as you please, but consider that it may be more effective to copy this write-up format when posting.

Hope this is helpful, here it be:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18059


Thanks for the link m8.

I know the devs have been reading this thread also. Shocked

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#145 - 2011-10-07 10:23:50 UTC
Ciar Meara wrote:
I honestly hate the idea of plexes, unless they are generated by players who decide to attack a certain system and thus setup a plex/forward command bases to start the invasion/start to take the system.

Having random plexes spawn about to orbit while they are capturing the flag with an npc or two present is of 0 interest to me. Purpose, focus and player management is.



So it should be possible to do something that triggers an incursion-type event in system X?

I am intrigued by your idea, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Amun Khonsu
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#146 - 2011-10-07 10:43:30 UTC
I've been reviewing this entire thread and there are a few thoughts that came to mind.

1) Drawing and keeping interest of new FW players
2) Making the plexing mechanic meaningful
3) Encouraging PvP with a purpose

I'll be the first to admit that I am not a heavy RP'r so I dont do much plexing. I think yesterday was the first time in over a year I hit a plex after reading this forum thread. However, I do love FW and the fights that can ensue. I also can see myself involving myself more in the plexing mechanic if it was more PvP oriented.

Bengal Bob wrote:
I still think we need some sort of T1 minor plex for our new pilots to allow them to experience plexing without having a dram or faction frig land on them. Minor plexes were originally great pvp, but thrashers started to take over, and then with the easy mission isk they are now full of expensive ships.

Maybe a scale

T1 frig plexes (additional restrictions so high ranks can't enter i.e sasa etc who will **** any newer players)
T1 Dessies down
Minor plexes - as current
And then the same for med plexes.

Maybe restrict majors to bc up so it takes a group effort rather than speed tanking.



I think Bengal Bob has a very good idea here. New FW pilots are often overwhelmed and discouraged from staying in FW because they simply cannot compete with their experience or skill point level. The enthusiastic t1 frigate pilot meets dram in a minor plex and he is killed, over and over, until he asks himself "what is the point?"

Cearain wrote:


I believe that removing npcs *and* immediately notifying the militias when a plex is entered will make plexes pvp havens.

Of course, I *also* think CCP should not have more plexes spawn right after downtime. It is not "either or." CCP should do both.

The rest I, not surprisingly, agree with you.

Why the attachment to npcs? Let the miltias know when plexes are entered and decide for themselves if they want to fight for occupancy.


Ciar Meara wrote:
I honestly hate the idea of plexes, unless they are generated by players who decide to attack a certain system and thus setup a plex/forward command bases to start the invasion/start to take the system.


Cearain is on to something too. I've yet to completely wrap my head around my thoughts here but NPC's should not be the sole defenders of plexes. Tho Im not sure they should be removed.

Clar Meara is on to something that I think compliments Cearains idea.

Making FW more 'occupancy' focused gives meaning to plexing. Random spawns is a lazy mechanic that lends to no military strategy at all on the part of the player.

Time for out of the box crackpot idea here so bear with me...

FW should be occupancy focused giving benefits 'of some kind' to the occupying militia (as I mentioned before perhaps restrictions on docking at the occupying racial stations and those stations firing on enemies camping it).

Capturing plexes should be strategically thought out, sought after and fought for by the players. What could happen here is that corps can choose which systems to assault up to a certain number (Im thinking 1) per corp. When said system is chosen, it shows up on the player map (similar to number of ships killed in system, etc options) or faction warfar window, commonly brought up in station. It can show as being under assault (even perhaps which corp has chosen to assault it to let people prioritise the threat of the enemy by known reputation and activity) giving players an idea of what systems they should be focusing on for defense or attack. Type of plexes turn up in order and a certain number allowed per day in chosen system until the system is turned.

Plexing can still have NPC's for defense and ranked as Bob suggested to allow new players to have a chance. NPC drops, LP, faction standings and rank awards remaining the same, except of turning a system. Shooting a bunker and turning a system should also carry with it greater benefits (owing towards faction standing, LP and rank) than plexing as it is the fulfillment of a militia members ultimate duty that builds on everyday plexing.

Third party involvement should be nerfed, ie make supers more vulnerable in low sec. Restrict non-milita members from entering militia plexes. Keep pirates pirating and militia members carrying out militia oriented duties. Allow alliances to join or be formed in militia under the banner of the government they choose to serve to balance out pirate alliances that are active in the FW areas camping gates etc. *cough*AMAMAKE** which prevent new players from even getting to a militia fight or plex.

erm.... stepping out on a limb with crackpot idea. maybe more to come, but just some unformed thoughts here. Im sure it will bring some more life to the thread leastways. Enjoy!

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net

Darius Shakor
Second Shakor Clan
#147 - 2011-10-07 11:07:39 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Darius Shakor wrote:
...Of course, I do hope it does hit us in winter, really. And if not then some time close after.Big smile

And how much do you think it will be worth, considering that the current implementation took a full expansion (+cycle) to put together and practically every facet of our little universe needs to be redone?
CCP has not made any strides to even discuss possible FW changes internally according to a Dev a few months back, since it was barely a louse on a hair on the ass-end of their priority list. Do you really believe that FW will be better off with whatever they can cook up in less than a week, which is probably what is left when they are done fulfilling all their other Winter promises ..


You assume that CCP has only just put pen to paper on this now after that blog?

If they have I will be surprised. Theory-crafting is the essence of CCP's development cycles. We have seen before how many ideas and changes have been presented to us all then never seen full light or changed radically by release. And it ends the same way, with tears from the community about the change or loss and rage about 'broken promises'.

CCP now seem to take a cautious approach to future development plans that are not on their main agenda. Yes, FW has been one of them for the last three years. Now they are telling us that they are on the agenda again. It does not mean no work has been done on anything at all. There are multiple teams in CCP working on multiple things, some of which most likely never gets released for a multitude of reasons. I don't accept that none of these have been focused on FW at any point in the past or even present. The blog looks to me (between the lines) like a presentation of reordering of priorities in CCP's eve development. Now I think about it, it is not as much 'between the lines' when a complete view is taken.

Anyway when I said what you quoted I did not mean 'just give us any old half-baked crap' so don't assume so much. I mean that I hope something substantial and working is ready for Winter 2011. Why would any self respecting eve player want anything less?Blink

Darius Shakor - Kacha

Vandeamon Writing Project - EVE Works

Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#148 - 2011-10-07 11:12:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciar Meara
Rodj Blake wrote:
So it should be possible to do something that triggers an incursion-type event in system X?

I am intrigued by your idea, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


Yes an incursion like event that escaltes in time, if it is stopped soon enough it fizzles out, if capsuleers are able to defeat enemy fleets and thus prevent the incursions to build up the invastion (for the moment) is stopped.

If it isn't the ticker start to tick. What these incursion attack where they are located and how they are spawned is a matter for discussion but I like that idea + there is allready a mechanic in game for it regarding the sansha's.

Amun Khonsu wrote:

Making FW more 'occupancy' focused gives meaning to plexing. Random spawns is a lazy mechanic that lends to no military strategy at all on the part of the player.

Time for out of the box crackpot idea here so bear with me...

FW should be occupancy focused giving benefits 'of some kind' to the occupying militia (as I mentioned before perhaps restrictions on docking at the occupying racial stations and those stations firing on enemies camping it).

Capturing plexes should be strategically thought out, sought after and fought for by the players. What could happen here is that corps can choose which systems to assault up to a certain number (Im thinking 1) per corp. When said system is chosen, it shows up on the player map (similar to number of ships killed in system, etc options) or faction warfar window, commonly brought up in station. It can show as being under assault (even perhaps which corp has chosen to assault it to let people prioritise the threat of the enemy by known reputation and activity) giving players an idea of what systems they should be focusing on for defense or attack. Type of plexes turn up in order and a certain number allowed per day in chosen system until the system is turned.

Plexing can still have NPC's for defense and ranked as Bob suggested to allow new players to have a chance. NPC drops, LP, faction standings and rank awards remaining the same, except of turning a system. Shooting a bunker and turning a system should also carry with it greater benefits (owing towards faction standing, LP and rank) than plexing as it is the fulfillment of a militia members ultimate duty that builds on everyday plexing.

Third party involvement should be nerfed, ie make supers more vulnerable in low sec. Restrict non-milita members from entering militia plexes. Keep pirates pirating and militia members carrying out militia oriented duties. Allow alliances to join or be formed in militia under the banner of the government they choose to serve to balance out pirate alliances that are active in the FW areas camping gates etc. *cough*AMAMAKE** which prevent new players from even getting to a militia fight or plex.

erm.... stepping out on a limb with crackpot idea. maybe more to come, but just some unformed thoughts here. Im sure it will bring some more life to the thread leastways. Enjoy!


I can pretty much agree with everything you wrote, in light of the fact that attacks should be one by corps/militias. In order to make it pure EVE the defending militias would not know who attack what system just that there are attacks, what corp is exactly attack and with how many players should be done with good old fashioned spies and recon ships. Misdirection is part of warfare.

All players who participated in the attack would be rewarded but those that staked a claim early on could get bigger rewards, who in term could be shared with others (to reward subterfuge).

With the occupancy based and denying of docking rights the fact that logistics would begin to matter is important to. Basicly we need more tools to reward those who support attacks and organise themselves. And the empires must seem to be involved also. Hence the incursions above.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#149 - 2011-10-07 19:42:33 UTC
I don't mind if the plexes spawn randomly or by some player action. The thing is though they have to have many of these available spread out throughout the 8 fw regions. Otherwise it will just be a matter of blob warfare.

I like the idea that I can open up plexes pretty much anywhere I want now. The only problem is 99% of the militia doesn't even know I'm there.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2011-10-11 03:00:17 UTC
Woot - FW has gotten a boost (kind of...) - aggro log off mechanics + SC changes mean people will have to be more careful hot dropping FW members in low sec!!!!

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#151 - 2011-10-11 03:43:23 UTC
Damassys Kadesh wrote:


There is such a thread located in the "Features and Ideas" section, where it won't be buried intensely like things are in "General Discussion".

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18059


I also started this thread in General Discussion, right before Bloodpetal started theirs. Both contain great dialogue regarding the subject, I encourage all FW enthusiasts or hopefuls to post in both, but I'm not trying to compete with threads, I only started mine in GD because the Dev's are far more active there than anywhere else.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Bengal Bob
Slymsloot Enterprises
#152 - 2011-10-12 10:12:43 UTC
Still waiting for patch notes - dev blog would be nice even though it is just words not action.
Amun Khonsu
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#153 - 2011-10-16 12:46:08 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Woot - FW has gotten a boost (kind of...) - aggro log off mechanics + SC changes mean people will have to be more careful hot dropping FW members in low sec!!!!


+1 to that!

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2011-10-18 02:15:29 UTC
Bengal Bob wrote:
Still waiting for patch notes - dev blog would be nice even though it is just words not action.
Winter is coming - need a dev blog CCP!!!

Bengal Bob
Slymsloot Enterprises
#155 - 2011-10-20 15:19:56 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Bengal Bob wrote:
Still waiting for patch notes - dev blog would be nice even though it is just words not action.
Winter is coming - need a dev blog CCP!!!

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2011-10-24 02:45:42 UTC
Bengal Bob wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Bengal Bob wrote:
Still waiting for patch notes - dev blog would be nice even though it is just words not action.
Winter is coming - need a dev blog CCP!!!


This needs a BUMP - any word on the FW improvements CCP???

CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#157 - 2011-10-24 06:56:42 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Bengal Bob wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Bengal Bob wrote:
Still waiting for patch notes - dev blog would be nice even though it is just words not action.
Winter is coming - need a dev blog CCP!!!


This needs a BUMP - any word on the FW improvements CCP???


Just wanted to pop in quickly and say that we haven't forgotten about this thread. Smile Can't give any ETA on the solid news right now but we'll keep you up to date with any developments.

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#158 - 2011-10-24 14:57:25 UTC
CCP Spitfire wrote:

Just wanted to pop in quickly and say that we haven't forgotten about this thread. Smile Can't give any ETA on the solid news right now but we'll keep you up to date with any developments.


Thanks Spitfire - by now I'm sure you understand that the FW crowd is a prickly one - years of not being responded to has hardened everyone a bit. Hence, the eggheads who immediately cry foul when a Dev posts a comment and doesnt immediately release a full dev blog and answer to every question within whatever they decide is a reasonable timeframe, which is apparently a matter of hours, not days.

I think what would calm everyone down is simply letting us know whether there is going to be fixes at all this winter expansion - "we're reading this thread" is very different to us than "we're taking into account your feedback from multiple threads and actively working on several fixes, please allow us time to set up a proper dev blog". This is just one of those communication improvement things. I get that you can't release details, but at this point I'm assuming you at least know whether there's going to be fixes at all...

If there isn't going to be time to get to faction warfare for this expansion, I'd just go ahead and rip the band-aid off now, and brace for the flame attack. No point in drawing it out and souring everyone further. If you could just let us know there's actual developments in progress instead of just "we're reading this", hopefully we can silence some of the naysayers and doomsdayers.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Bengal Bob
Slymsloot Enterprises
#159 - 2011-10-24 15:42:02 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
CCP Spitfire wrote:

Just wanted to pop in quickly and say that we haven't forgotten about this thread. Smile Can't give any ETA on the solid news right now but we'll keep you up to date with any developments.


Thanks Spitfire - by now I'm sure you understand that the FW crowd is a prickly one - years of not being responded to has hardened everyone a bit. Hence, the eggheads who immediately cry foul when a Dev posts a comment and doesnt immediately release a full dev blog and answer to every question within whatever they decide is a reasonable timeframe, which is apparently a matter of hours, not days.


Last CCP communication in that thread was: 2011.10.20 13:38

Guess time really blurs with all that missioning?

And I think the general consensus is that 2 years is not a reasonable timeframe. Most of us are far more interested in FW pvp and making plexes interesting than in missions.

The only reason that CCP is even considering working on FW again is due to pressure being put on them by the community, why should we ease up now? Appeasement is unlikely to bring rewards to us, we are just the golden geese and will only be thrown scraps to shut us up.

The very least that CCP could do is collate the many suggested improvements, decide what they can do quickly and then post them up for discussion/voting.

No one is expecting FW to be completely overhauled, but we would at least like some information as to what is being considered by CCP. The current suggestion of removing Navies from high sec is clearly not great, and got very little support.

Apart from that we have been told AGAIN we haven't been forgotten. Well, **** me I don't find that reassuring because I have been hearing it for two years. We haven't been forgotten, just ignored - after all, this thread started because they couldn't be bothered to turn up to discuss FW at the Fanfest.

So forgive me and the other FW pvpers if we want to keep this evidence of customer dissatisfaction and poor service from CCP right on the front page for all potential new customers to see, as well as all the guys that have moved on to other games.

CCP has shown us that they will not engage with the community, or continue to develop EVE unless put under massive pressure. I for one will continue to do so until I see some action.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#160 - 2011-10-24 16:13:55 UTC
Bengal Bob wrote:


Guess time really blurs with all that missioning?

And I think the general consensus is that 2 years is not a reasonable timeframe. Most of us are far more interested in FW pvp and making plexes interesting than in missions.

The only reason that CCP is even considering working on FW again is due to pressure being put on them by the community, why should we ease up now? Appeasement is unlikely to bring rewards to us, we are just the golden geese and will only be thrown scraps to shut us up.

The very least that CCP could do is collate the many suggested improvements, decide what they can do quickly and then post them up for discussion/voting.

No one is expecting FW to be completely overhauled, but we would at least like some information as to what is being considered by CCP. The current suggestion of removing Navies from high sec is clearly not great, and got very little support.

Apart from that we have been told AGAIN we haven't been forgotten. Well, **** me I don't find that reassuring because I have been hearing it for two years. We haven't been forgotten, just ignored - after all, this thread started because they couldn't be bothered to turn up to discuss FW at the Fanfest.

So forgive me and the other FW pvpers if we want to keep this evidence of customer dissatisfaction and poor service from CCP right on the front page for all potential new customers to see, as well as all the guys that have moved on to other games.

CCP has shown us that they will not engage with the community, or continue to develop EVE unless put under massive pressure. I for one will continue to do so until I see some action.


Where did all this talk about missioning come from? I must have missed something....

Anyways, I agree, there needs to be more communication with the FW community, that's exactly why I said what I said above, and why I started the other thread, so we could focus on the immediately fixable items.

My only point is that until they confirm or deny whether there will be any changes to FW this expansion, its to early to "call it". 4 days have elapsed - and if they're as busy with actually working on improvements as they say they are than a few days between posts doesn't give off alarm bells for me personally. I'll keep on holding out hope for change until they day they post that "Sorry, nothing's happening this winter".

I empathize though, with your sense of hopelessness - its been a long time, and everyone's emotions are a little raw. Even though the FW community has polarized between the optimists and the pessimists, we're all on the same team, and we all want the same thing.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary