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CCP - Did you miss the fanfest round table for FW?

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Author
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#101 - 2011-09-20 19:49:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Bengal Bob wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I believe that removing npcs *and* immediately notifying the militias when a plex is entered will make plexes pvp havens.


Trying to balance the npcs and all that, is a waste of time for the devs. NPCs on the whole discourage pvp.


Hmm, I have never been hugely discouraged by the Amarr NPCs. Maybe a matter of balancing them so one faction doesn't have overpowered NPC assistance.


They are definitely a deterrent from my side of the war. The missiles and painters can really cut through a tank.

But the thing is to the extent npcs have power they decrease the prospects of pvp. So the goal should be to make them negligible. But if that’s the goal then just remove them. Save dev time that would otherwise be spent trying to “balance” something that should not have an impact anyway.
Bengal Bob wrote:

I don't like the idea of notifying the militia when a plex has opened. My immediate thoughts are that people will form gank squads to burn to any open plexes and this will make solo pvp/plex hunting even harder.


Just a couple of points I’d like you to consider on this:
1) The gank squads won’t really “form” at any given time. The war will be going on 23/7. So different pilots will be constantly burning to different plexes trying to hold or attack them.

2) If plexes are spawning throughout the day there will be plexes spawning throughout the FW region. So the forces will have to be split up into smaller groups and likely even solo pilots, until faction war grows.

Lets say amarr militia responds to a minmatar cruiser taking a medium plex in sosala. Lets say we amarrians send 4 cruiser over there to attack that single minmatar cruiser. Ok he warps out and opens a plex in TZVI. Now if all 4 amarrians stay and capture the plex he started in sosala then he will cap that one in TZVI.

So the the amarrians might leave one there to cap that plex and send the other 3 over to tzvi. (actually I think the smart thing would be for all 4 amarrians to split up and cap plexes solo until all the systems are darn close to full. But those tactics involving how to allocate pilots will have to evolve.) So let’s say they do that. Now let’s say they kick him out of the plex. From there he can continue opeing plexes until they he can fight them 2 on 1 or even one on one.

Or he would have other options! He could have a frigate in tzvi and undock in that and open a minor plex. The amarrians would need to get in a ship that can fit in the minor. If only one of the 3 amarrians has a ship that will fit in that plex near by he will have a one on one fight for the plex. Or he could get in a battleship that he had in that area and open a major plex.

Ultimately this will shake out that people who have ships fit and ready to go throughout the fw region will be more successful. Those who can only form up a large blob in a single system and then go plodding around systems will fare poorly.

Being able to quickly react with the minimum force necessary to get the job done will be key in this sort of warfare.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Bengal Bob
Slymsloot Enterprises
#102 - 2011-09-20 20:17:38 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Being able to quickly react with the minimum force necessary to get the job done will be key in this sort of warfare.


No disrespect to all three of you amarr that do try for fair fights, but I can't even get a fight in a frigate anymore even against the odds without it turning out to be a trap Sad - not even frigs v frigs, but bc and all sorts waiting for me to aggress.

"I am here" beacons will mean that if someone comes into your plex, it is almost certain they already have someone(many) waiting on the other side of the gate.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#103 - 2011-09-20 21:46:02 UTC
Bengal Bob wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Being able to quickly react with the minimum force necessary to get the job done will be key in this sort of warfare.


No disrespect to all three of you amarr that do try for fair fights, but I can't even get a fight in a frigate anymore even against the odds without it turning out to be a trap Sad - not even frigs v frigs, but bc and all sorts waiting for me to aggress.

"I am here" beacons will mean that if someone comes into your plex, it is almost certain they already have someone(many) waiting on the other side of the gate.



We are after the same goal here.


If plexes are constantly being run throughout the 4 regions each front has, then the militias that refuse to split up their blobs will lose occupancy.

Consider this: Militia A and militia B both have 30 active pilots doing plexing. Militia A insists on keeping all of its pilots together in a large blob all doing one plex. Miltia B spreads their pilots out into 30 different systems each one doing a plex. It’s easy to see that Militia B will have allot more plexes captured.

Even on a smaller scale this is true. If militia A must send 2 pilots to dislodge every single pilot from militia B then they better have at least 2xs as many pilots or they will not win the occupancy war.

If the plexing mechanic was really done right militias would use the minimum number necessary to take each plex.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#104 - 2011-09-20 21:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Bengal Bob wrote:

I think it is much better to make people hunt plexers - pvp should be the reward for active players, not people that wait in station for an alert. It would get more people out and travelling and allow others that don't plex to chase or be chased.


IMO Chasing people around is boring and doesn’t lead to good fights. In any event if you want to chase people there are plenty of ways to do that in eve including FW missions. Eve needs a mechanic to bring about quality pvp that doesn’t take hours to find.

Plus I wouldn’t be in station at all except to reship and jump right back into the fighting. The fighting would be constant as plexes would be taken and defended constantly.

The other thing is we are supposedly joining a huge war. They are supposed to tell us were we are needed! Can you imagine joining up in say world war war I and having your superior say:
“here is your gun now go find the enemy and kill them!”
You might say “well ok where should I go?”
His response is “well in Europe somewhere.”
“Well, is there anywhere in particular where I should go. Like are there any current hot spots or anything?”
To which if reality was like Faction war he would say “You tell me. Just go roaming around Europe with your gun and shoot any enemies you find.”

Bengal Bob wrote:

Plexes used to be havens for pvp, but were killed off for two reasons really.

People realized there were no reasons to do them
Those that continue to do them are all flying expensive faction ships which make it difficult for people to compete.

If people want a big plex fight, they will get it, you can't conceal the build up of people into the area


I think people always realized plexing brought no isk/buff type rewards. So I don’t think people stopped doing them because they had some sort of epiphany about rewards.

Isk is just a means to an end. The end in faction war is to gain territory for your faction. If achieving that end is fun and challenging then people will do what it takes to show they are the best at it. If achieving that end means proving to the world that you can do mind numbingly repetitive actions over and over …..well not many will do it. Eve faction war is no different than any other game.

Moreover faction ships aren’t that expensive nor are there that many of them in plexes. I’m nto saying the plexs shouldn’t be tweaked but I am saying that alone does not even come close to explaining why no one plexes.

I am convinced the main reason people stopped doing plexes is because the current mechanic is such that doing plexes does not take any skills eve players value.

In 2008 Ank reported how she captured over a hundred plexes and made it to the highest Amarr rank in less than a week * without killing a single player*.

That showed that you can plex like the best of them without having any pvp skills at all. In other words when you win occupancy you are really just showing what a great carebear you are. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Caldari medals had a carebear on them. Not many players want that distinction.

If faction war plexing had to do with small scale pvp instead of pve people might actually value those medals and fight for occupancy.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Amun Khonsu
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#105 - 2011-09-21 07:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Amun Khonsu
Cearain wrote:
[quote=Bengal Bob]

If faction war plexing had to do with small scale pvp instead of pve people might actually value those medals and fight for occupancy.


You make some interesting points in your posts, just a side note...

I would be annoyed by the number of mails informing me of people warping into the hordes of plexes throughout the warzone.. some more than once as they get kicked out and return.

On the quote above, I dont think PvP alone is an incentive to take or hold occupancy. We all can get that without plexing, even if against a third party (someone not in any militia).

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#106 - 2011-09-21 13:54:20 UTC
Amun Khonsu wrote:
Cearain wrote:
[quote=Bengal Bob]

If faction war plexing had to do with small scale pvp instead of pve people might actually value those medals and fight for occupancy.


You make some interesting points in your posts, just a side note...

I would be annoyed by the number of mails informing me of people warping into the hordes of plexes throughout the warzone.. some more than once as they get kicked out and return.


Thanks for considering my thoughts on this.

The notification wouldn't be via mail. What I envision would be 2 seperate channels - 1 for the caldari gallente front and one for the minmatar amarr front. That way you could minimize the channel for the front you are not fighting on. These would be like chat channels but no players can chat on them. They would just give notifications like "Cearain entered minor auga frigate" Auga would be linked so that you could immediately set that destination. I think it could also give the message "cearain left minor auga frigate (or capsule depending how I fared)"

You could put this behind local chat and just check it every now and then to see what systems by you are need defense.

If the messages got to be too many or this was unwieldy I suppose ccp could offer a filter to let us see only certain regions.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#107 - 2011-09-21 14:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Amun Khonsu wrote:
Cearain wrote:


If faction war plexing had to do with small scale pvp instead of pve people might actually value those medals and fight for occupancy.


On the quote above, I dont think PvP alone is an incentive to take or hold occupancy. We all can get that without plexing, even if against a third party (someone not in any militia).


I would make 3 points in response:

1) This is relative. I think it’s very very hard to find decent pvp in eve. Now many people who agree with me have likely left the game already so you won’t hear from them. But I love the combat mechanics CCP designed so much that I am sticking around in hopes they will design a mechanic that brings about decent combat opportunities.

I have often signed in and flown around for an hour and a half in a t1 hull looking for a decent fight only to dock my ship unscratched with guns fully loaded. And by decent fight I’m not too picky. I mean if I am in a frigate I will engage against certain navy frigates, or interceptors or even sometimes 2 versus 1. If I am in a cruiser I might engage against say another cruiser or a cruiser and a destroyer type odds.

Yes you can join a large group and camp a gate. This will guarantee you kills but those aren’t fun fights imo. (I’m not faulting people who do that, nor do I want to argue the merits of gate camping, Gatecamping is just not my thing)

2) I agree there should be some other impact on the game. Lp rewards for capturing plexes and having stations possibly switch corps in the system. So if Gallente takes a system and there is a Lai dai station in the system there might be a 5% chance that that system will switch over to a Roden ship yards for every 3 months gallente hold it or something like that. If the locals run missions in that station they may actually join in the war effort, because the outcome would have some effect on them.
But again I don’t think that is the begin all and end all. If they just give rewards for doing plexing but it remains a carebear activity I think they made the game worse not better.

3) I’m not necessarily saying people will see pvp as the only reward. I am thoroughly convinced large numbers of eve players would love to have frequent quality pvp, but the pvp isn’t just for sh.. and giggles like rvb. It’s for a bigger goal. That bigger goal is system occupancy. That is they are striving to win the faction war. I realize right now that sounds stupid. With the current mechanics it is stupid.

If they change the mechanics so that in order to win you have to be good at pvp and strategizing how to use the pvp pilots then that is not so stupid.

It would be much more like winning the alliance tournament. I would think many eve players would like a medal showing they were on the team that won the alliance tournament. It’s not just for the rewards that people compete in the alliance tournament. The reason they would like that medal is because that medal would demonstrates that they have something eve players value – pvp skills. By making occupancy plexing into something that requires pvp skill then it would make those medals more valuable.

With any game – darts, chess, baseball, football, people think it is a fun and challenging to play these games. Hence many people play them just to win. It’s not that they get paid to play or anything like that. But if the game mechanics are not fun or challenging or otherwise seen as stupid then people won’t really care to play them or win at them. That is unless there is some other sort of payment.

Bottom line is that if ccp has to bribe people with lots of isk in order to engage in the game mechanic they create then that is pretty much proof that the mechanic is a failure.

CCP didn’t give isk to do faction war occupancy plexing because winning occupancy was supposed to be why you would earn isk in the first place. It was supposed to be fun to try to win occupancy. But currently with the npcs and very little pvp it’s more like drudgery. So players are saying you want us to endure this drudgery we need to get paid isk.

Make plexxing fun and people will do it. Yes give some rewards but they don’t have to be huge. Give some consequences because this is a sand box that supposedly has the butterfly effect. But they do it right the main reward will be winning at a fun and challenging game.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2011-09-23 01:20:47 UTC
I wonder if the latest dev blog will mean resources for FW???

Quote:
Intrepid pilots of New Eden!

Over the past days and weeks, CCP has been doing extensive and intense introspection and revitalization. The result of this is a refocusing and reprioritization on a scale unheard of within our company.

These are indeed defining times.

Torfi’s most recent dev blog provides some indication of what’s to come. We have decided, to focus our collective efforts on the areas you have asked us to focus on.

We will reveal more over the coming weeks. As certain details are prone to change, we want to make sure we have absolutely concrete information to give you. You’ve often told us that we promise too much and deliver too little, and this time we want to be certain that doesn’t happen. We are listening to you, we have heard you, and plans are already in motion.

Watch this space.

Arnar Hrafn Gylfason
Senior Producer of EVE Online


Bengal Bob
Slymsloot Enterprises
#109 - 2011-09-23 10:04:39 UTC
Hopefully answers before the next fanfest. Will be funny if this thread has stayed on first/second page for a year with no answers.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#110 - 2011-09-23 12:15:34 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
I wonder if the latest dev blog will mean resources for FW???

If we are lucky it might mean that they give a cleaning lady salary for 4 hours to collate the various suggestions made over the past two years into a single bullet-point document that they can use on the dart board.

Result: Complete revamp of FW with horribly disjointed solutions to issues and a truck load of bugs/new issues that ultimately makes it even more atrocious.

In short: You are trying to find hope where none exists, the blog is pointing rather clearly at the null do-over Sad
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#111 - 2011-09-23 12:29:22 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Bengal Bob wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Being able to quickly react with the minimum force necessary to get the job done will be key in this sort of warfare.


No disrespect to all three of you amarr that do try for fair fights, but I can't even get a fight in a frigate anymore even against the odds without it turning out to be a trap Sad - not even frigs v frigs, but bc and all sorts waiting for me to aggress.

"I am here" beacons will mean that if someone comes into your plex, it is almost certain they already have someone(many) waiting on the other side of the gate.



We are after the same goal here.


If plexes are constantly being run throughout the 4 regions each front has, then the militias that refuse to split up their blobs will lose occupancy.

Consider this: Militia A and militia B both have 30 active pilots doing plexing. Militia A insists on keeping all of its pilots together in a large blob all doing one plex. Miltia B spreads their pilots out into 30 different systems each one doing a plex. It’s easy to see that Militia B will have allot more plexes captured.

Even on a smaller scale this is true. If militia A must send 2 pilots to dislodge every single pilot from militia B then they better have at least 2xs as many pilots or they will not win the occupancy war.

If the plexing mechanic was really done right militias would use the minimum number necessary to take each plex.


People will also be encouraged to go plexing if there was an actual point to holding occupancy.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#112 - 2011-09-23 14:17:40 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Bengal Bob wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Being able to quickly react with the minimum force necessary to get the job done will be key in this sort of warfare.


No disrespect to all three of you amarr that do try for fair fights, but I can't even get a fight in a frigate anymore even against the odds without it turning out to be a trap Sad - not even frigs v frigs, but bc and all sorts waiting for me to aggress.

"I am here" beacons will mean that if someone comes into your plex, it is almost certain they already have someone(many) waiting on the other side of the gate.



We are after the same goal here.


If plexes are constantly being run throughout the 4 regions each front has, then the militias that refuse to split up their blobs will lose occupancy.

Consider this: Militia A and militia B both have 30 active pilots doing plexing. Militia A insists on keeping all of its pilots together in a large blob all doing one plex. Miltia B spreads their pilots out into 30 different systems each one doing a plex. It’s easy to see that Militia B will have allot more plexes captured.

Even on a smaller scale this is true. If militia A must send 2 pilots to dislodge every single pilot from militia B then they better have at least 2xs as many pilots or they will not win the occupancy war.

If the plexing mechanic was really done right militias would use the minimum number necessary to take each plex.


People will also be encouraged to go plexing if there was an actual point to holding occupancy.


I thought gaining and holding occupancy was the point. That is, it is the ultimate goal of faction warriors. I guess, as much as there is a point in any game - let alone a sandbox game. It's just that the current plexxing mechanics are not fun, and need fixing, so very few use them.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#113 - 2011-09-23 18:33:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Hirana Yoshida
Hmmm, brain just farted --->

Militia wars have never in the history of mankind been about taking and holding land, because it can by definition not be done against an organized/superior entity.

Attrition, Attrition, Attrition. Kill so many enemies, destroy all his stuff and make his life unbearable in general until he collapses/withdraws on his own ..

Where FW is concerned this translates into:
- Denying access to station services (docking permits will never be revoked for NPC stations),
- Removal/restriction of income sources (missions go to 1 predefined system per constellation unless a system in the constellation is captured for instance).
- Decreased performance while operating on enemy militia turf (crude simulation of all the invaders who have died in bogs, swamps and forests throughout history).
- Etc.

PS: Sorry, my brain always develops gas when this thread slips to page 2+ for some unknown reason!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#114 - 2011-09-23 20:13:45 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Hmmm, brain just farted --->

Militia wars have never in the history of mankind been about taking and holding land, because it can by definition not be done against an organized/superior entity.


Well this involves miltias fighting other miltias. So even if I were to assume, for the sake of argument, what you said is true, it wouldn't apply here. We are fighting for occupancy.

Hirana Yoshida wrote:


Attrition, Attrition, Attrition. Kill so many enemies, destroy all his stuff and make his life unbearable in general until he collapses/withdraws on his own ..

Where FW is concerned this translates into:
- Denying access to station services (docking permits will never be revoked for NPC stations),
- Removal/restriction of income sources (missions go to 1 predefined system per constellation unless a system in the constellation is captured for instance).
- Decreased performance while operating on enemy militia turf (crude simulation of all the invaders who have died in bogs, swamps and forests throughout history).
- Etc.

PS: Sorry, my brain always develops gas when this thread slips to page 2+ for some unknown reason!



Don't you think this would lead to everyone joining winning side? If I can join any militia I want why would I join one that has decreased performce, removed and/or restricted of income, and is denied station services?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#115 - 2011-09-23 20:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Cearain wrote:

Don't you think this would lead to everyone joining winning side? If I can join any militia I want why would I join one that has decreased performce, removed and/or restricted of income, and is denied station services?


Nahh. The "joining the winning side" issue is hypothetically a concern for ANY advantage brought to either militia for winning systems, but that hasn't stopped "bring meaning to sov" from being the #1 demand of all of us who engage in Faction Warfare and desire some improvements.

It all boils down to good fights, after all. What is the fun in being blue to everyone? No fun for those of us that pew. Same with militia, its not fun when everyone is purple. In a game like Eve - being the underdog means more gameplay and pvp opportunities, so it self-balances. If you talk to many FW pilots, I think the consensus is that it sucks when your side has the highest activity level, because it means less targets to shoot when the opposing team is too intimidated to undock and roam.

It is because of this that Minmatar players will often encourage interested parties to join the Amarr militia, and vice versa. I doubt that will change just because there is an advantage to "winning" the militia wars.

EDIT: I strongly disagree with being denied station services as a penalty for not being in control of a system. I propose instead that the station guns simply fry the opposing faction, same as if you were GCC. This would swat down much of the ridiculous station games, and also punish those who have their home systems invaded, without causing them to completely screwed because they get camped in, and cant undock their ships to repair, thus quickly having their fleets reduced to nothing without getting a chance to use them in fair fights.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2011-09-26 03:22:15 UTC
How would frigates and cruiser fair if they were pwned by station guns in a hostile system?

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#117 - 2011-09-26 16:04:00 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Don't you think this would lead to everyone joining winning side? If I can join any militia I want why would I join one that has decreased performce, removed and/or restricted of income, and is denied station services?


Nahh. The "joining the winning side" issue is hypothetically a concern for ANY advantage brought to either militia for winning systems, but that hasn't stopped "bring meaning to sov" from being the #1 demand of all of us who engage in Faction Warfare and desire some improvements.

It all boils down to good fights, after all. What is the fun in being blue to everyone? No fun for those of us that pew. Same with militia, its not fun when everyone is purple. In a game like Eve - being the underdog means more gameplay and pvp opportunities, so it self-balances. If you talk to many FW pilots, I think the consensus is that it sucks when your side has the highest activity level, because it means less targets to shoot when the opposing team is too intimidated to undock and roam. ....



I agree this acts as a counter balance for several pilots. In fact when I was in rvb I switched back and forth from red and blue several times for this very reason.

But I think there are several reasons to think this "pile on the winning team" mentality will have an effect:

1) it already happened even when there were no rewards. Around the time Caldari "won faction war" gallente had very few active pilots.
2)In FW its not quite as easy to switch sides as in rvb. You will be considered a spy, you have to move your stuff through low sec etc. It sucks to no longer fly with your friends and developing some sort of reasonable pretend hatred of the enemy makes the game more fun.
3)Role players won't change
4) Those new to pvp will likely want to be on the winning side not on the underdog side. Then all the reasons not to switch sides will kick in.
5) as far as income: I know players that explicitly said they went to caldari because the missions are easier. I know a player who missioned allot who went to minmatar (which also has easier missions than amarr). These players also pvp, its not the case that they just run missions. They figured if they prefer to pvp instead of missioning why join a faction where I have to mission longer to get the same isk. I can't (and don't) fault them.
6) if your talking about things that actually tip pvp battles one way or another like increased damage or resists or gate guns then I wouldn't do that, myself. If your just talking station guns at the enemy militias station then that would be fine and probably good by me.

That said I think if ccp did some things fw could be somewhat self balancing:
1) increased the number of fw lp items that are unique to each faction.
2) made the items that are unique to each faction worth something. (e.g. amarr plates should have lower fittings than meta 4 gallente plates should have the same fittings as meta 4)
3) require that plexes be run in order to get or cash in on the lps.

If you do not have number 3 then you will just ahve people farming the missions and not running plexes. But if they had to run plexes in order to cash in on the lp . Either by having only the plexes award lp or by having the plexes award something else you need to get the unique items. For example maybe the faction specific items required a different type of lp that you could only get by running plexes. Then the items would go up in value and economics would help balance things.

This would need to be tweaked over time. Even iterated on. But they could do something like that.

Moreover I think some effects from faction occupancy wouldn't directly impact the fw participants that much. Like a small percent chance npc stations will switching from an Amarr corp to a Minmatar corp if the minmatar take occupancy of the system.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#118 - 2011-09-26 16:07:30 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
How would frigates and cruiser fair if they were pwned by station guns in a hostile system?


They would likely fare poorly.

I'm thinking he just meant station guns at the enemy militia stations. So minmatar would be shot if they went to a 24th station. But they wouldn't be shot if they went to a Carthum station. In other words camping stations would have its price. That would be fine by me.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2011-09-27 05:41:13 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Don't you think this would lead to everyone joining winning side? If I can join any militia I want why would I join one that has decreased performce, removed and/or restricted of income, and is denied station services?


Nahh. The "joining the winning side" issue is hypothetically a concern for ANY advantage brought to either militia for winning systems, but that hasn't stopped "bring meaning to sov" from being the #1 demand of all of us who engage in Faction Warfare and desire some improvements.

It all boils down to good fights, after all. What is the fun in being blue to everyone? No fun for those of us that pew. Same with militia, its not fun when everyone is purple. In a game like Eve - being the underdog means more gameplay and pvp opportunities, so it self-balances. If you talk to many FW pilots, I think the consensus is that it sucks when your side has the highest activity level, because it means less targets to shoot when the opposing team is too intimidated to undock and roam. ....



I agree this acts as a counter balance for several pilots. In fact when I was in rvb I switched back and forth from red and blue several times for this very reason.

But I think there are several reasons to think this "pile on the winning team" mentality will have an effect:

1) it already happened even when there were no rewards. Around the time Caldari "won faction war" gallente had very few active pilots.
2)In FW its not quite as easy to switch sides as in rvb. You will be considered a spy, you have to move your stuff through low sec etc. It sucks to no longer fly with your friends and developing some sort of reasonable pretend hatred of the enemy makes the game more fun.
3)Role players won't change
4) Those new to pvp will likely want to be on the winning side not on the underdog side. Then all the reasons not to switch sides will kick in.
5) as far as income: I know players that explicitly said they went to caldari because the missions are easier. I know a player who missioned allot who went to minmatar (which also has easier missions than amarr). These players also pvp, its not the case that they just run missions. They figured if they prefer to pvp instead of missioning why join a faction where I have to mission longer to get the same isk. I can't (and don't) fault them.
6) if your talking about things that actually tip pvp battles one way or another like increased damage or resists or gate guns then I wouldn't do that, myself. If your just talking station guns at the enemy militias station then that would be fine and probably good by me.

That said I think if ccp did some things fw could be somewhat self balancing:
1) increased the number of fw lp items that are unique to each faction.
2) made the items that are unique to each faction worth something. (e.g. amarr plates should have lower fittings than meta 4 gallente plates should have the same fittings as meta 4)
3) require that plexes be run in order to get or cash in on the lps.

If you do not have number 3 then you will just ahve people farming the missions and not running plexes. But if they had to run plexes in order to cash in on the lp . Either by having only the plexes award lp or by having the plexes award something else you need to get the unique items. For example maybe the faction specific items required a different type of lp that you could only get by running plexes. Then the items would go up in value and economics would help balance things.

This would need to be tweaked over time. Even iterated on. But they could do something like that.

Moreover I think some effects from faction occupancy wouldn't directly impact the fw participants that much. Like a small percent chance npc stations will switching from an Amarr corp to a Minmatar corp if the minmatar take occupancy of the system.


Who pretends??? Shocked

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#120 - 2011-09-27 09:23:41 UTC
Cearain wrote:
.. agree this acts as a counter balance for several pilots...

The pile-up on Caldari never actually happened you know, it merely looked that way because the Gallente was depopulated but the people leaving left FW entirely. The rest is/was down to normal fluctuations.

1. Caldari had a huge influx at the start due to the insane money making potential from COSMOS items becoming easily accessible through FW.
The standings grind needed for said COSMOS items was one of the reasons why Caldari "won". They managed to convince everyone that they might as well help plex rather than grind missions so their plexers outnumbered the frogs by a huge margin.
2. Not seeing how that relates to the pile-on effect, seems to be the opposite. But some good-hearted animosity is very much key if living in the rat infested trenches.
3. We do, just not quickly like our ADHD afflicted non-RP meatshields .. muhahahaha Big smile
4. Those new to PvP may well join what looks like the "winning side", but they are promptly eaten alive by the experienced PvP'ers who joined the under-dog side for the challenge .. door swings both ways Smile
5. NPC balance or lack thereof had by far the biggest effect on the apparent pile-on of the Caldari. It has been neutered somewhat with the agent changes though as one can now almost pick-and-choose mission and location due to all purveyors being the same.
Would be super sweet, like rainbow farting unicorns sweet, if there were missions designed for small gangs similar to Incursions as PvP'ers who has a legitimate and often urgent need for cash generally function best with wing-men.
6. Sounds very good on paper, and would serve to make the militia stations the natural bases for the respective militia's. But as any pirate will tell you, sentries are not to be feared, with just a handful of people the damage they do is diluted to a point where even local tanking is enough.
Cearain wrote:
That said I think if ccp did some things fw could be somewhat self balancing:...

Would be quite awesome if FW provided unique opportunities and gave access to resources unavailable elsewhere, kind of like null's much loved (Lol) moon-goo. Would have to be done in conjunction with rather draconian measures to prevent the level of farming that we are seeing now though or it will be a moot point.
Easy enough to do though, remove stuff like navy resist/damage mods from the 'vanilla' LP stores ...

I suggested a solution to the LP-for-plex conundrum a while that nimbly avoids afk-frig farming:
- Closing a plex awards a certain amount of LP that are put into escrow (think Incursion LP).
- Mission LP awards draws from this escrow can never exceed what is available. If pool is empty a mission only pays out half (or something like that).
Straight LP for closing plexes would make a complete redesign of the things mandatory to prevent farming and would most likely have to include your hated plex NPCs to help with this .. just sayin' Smile

As for stations suddenly switching sides: CCP would need to RP it like mad to justify such a thing as they are merely satellite offices of multi-national corporations, but to have corporations that employ 100s of millions pull up stakes just because something as irrelevant as occupancy flips (which happens a lot in some systems!) makes no sense.