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New dev blog: This Week In The Unified Inventory

First post First post
Author
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2012-05-29 00:21:20 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
Off topic and non-constructive posts removed.

Please remember that this thread is to discuss the devblog in a constructive way. We know how much unhappiness and dissatisfaction was created, but to resolve this situation as fast as possible, it is necessary to have your posts right on the topic while being constructive. This way our developers can read in an efficiently way your feedback and do not need to spend unnecessary time filtering out off topic posts.

Thank you for your help!


If you could make a dev-blog about how you're going to collect (and react to) more feedback on massive changes before releasing them to TQ, I bet you'll get a higher percentage of constructive responses, and it would probably ease the frustration you're feeling about the window.

The Window isn't really the problem, it's the symptom...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Imuran
Zentor Industries
Spaen Scientific
#342 - 2012-05-29 00:33:43 UTC
Par'Gellen wrote:
Here is another Inventory UI issue that needs to be addressed. Please see this screenshot for detailed explaination.

http://www.neoncranium.com/inventory3.jpg


Good change that - could possibly do something similar on the top of the window as well
ORJI
Clan Shadow Wolf
Tactical Narcotics Team
#343 - 2012-05-29 00:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ORJI
Zagdul wrote:


Removing of Commonly Used 'old' Shortcuts

You castrated people who do a lot of logistics. The ability to dock, right click my ship, open the fuel bay...

wait...

no...

I can no longer right click and open my fuel bay or corporate hangar!?

/sigh...



I don't want to be repetitive of what was already said... hopefully, you guys are on it.... but This^^

On another note.... TO CCP:
I think the passion you see is because people are asked to go on SiSi and provide feedback... but when you receive A LOT of consistent feedback on a particular concept then proceed to ignore it, players that spent hours testing feel a complete and utter waste of their time.... If you just put out what you wanted and called it a day, that's one thing.... but if you have us involved with testing then ignore critical feedback, people will become cynical. No one likes their time wasted. That said, EvE Online is an amazing game, has set such a high bar in technology, graphics, etc. and I personally love it.... You guys have a product that is really good and we (as players) are also passionate about keeping that bar on par. :)
Par'Gellen
#344 - 2012-05-29 01:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Par'Gellen
CCP Optimal wrote:
In some cases we felt that players weren't even giving the new proposed way of doing things a chance and that it might just be a matter of getting used to.

Fair enough. I've seriously given this new inventory thing an honest try. I really have. It's been several days now and I can tell you that this is no longer a matter of "getting used to". This new system is actually much worse than the old system.

I've tried to consolidate my thoughts from my several other posts into one concise feedback. Here is what I came up with.

There are design flaws:

  • It takes up much more screen real estate than the old system. This is a very big deal. Huge.
  • It is harder to do things that were simple before, like having to open station/corp/ship hangars every time you dock just to drag and drop some loot.
  • The main inventory window cannot be closed. The treeview is nice but the static inventory window attached to it is not. I need that space.


There are functionallity flaws:

  • Shift clicking on containers to open them in their own windows works but those windows do not remember to open the next time you dock/jump/log on. This is a big deal. Huge.
  • There is significant lag now while looting several wrecks/cans as well as when moving even small amounts of stuff around.


There are intuition flaws:

  • Humans are primarily visual creatures. With the old system I could dock and tell what I had in the station at a glance. With the new system (even now after days of using it) I still have trouble figuring out what I have in a station without clicking all over the place. I hate that. Alot.
  • When looting multiple wrecks/cans the inventory window remains open after all of them have been looted which often confuses me into trying to select all on my own cargo and drag it to itself. If using the Loot All button I'm usually confused momentarily into thinking i'm looking at an open can with no button when in fact it's my own cargo.
  • I have lost count of the number of times I've docked and tried to drag my ship's cargo into itself because the main inventory window opens my ship's cargo by default. If this static inventory window is going to be forced upon me then it should display the station's hangar contents by default and not my own ship's cargo which I already have open in it's own window.


These are the large annoying issues that I have run into. There are many other smaller ones that I'm sure I'll get over but the ones listed above are driving me mad and I can assure you no amount of "getting used to" is going to make me feel differently. In fact the more I encounter the issues listed above the more my hate for them grows like a boil on satan's arse.

Thank you for listening to my feedback.
-Par

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

Citrute
The High and Mighty
Carebear Abortion Clinic
#345 - 2012-05-29 01:35:36 UTC
CCP -
It's okay to admit you made a mistake and roll back changes to the old inventory. Maybe we could try this new inventory on your next expansion instead? (after you actually listen to the feedback on sisi instead of assuming we're wrong)

I apologies if you have delusions of grandeur, however, to your player base, Its painfully obvious this change was not an improvement.
Solaris Ecladia
Comms Black
Pandemic Horde
#346 - 2012-05-29 01:36:58 UTC
I see a very bad trend with the way things are going. Its probably been said before but Why have a test server anymore if you dont listen to people on it? Yea that adaptive armor thing was a cool idea. We told you "Hey man, it doesnt work the way it should. you should look at it". Nah, toss that ***** in game.
"Hey CCP, that new inventory; yea so people will react badly to that. It has horrid POS management ability, its laggy, Makes life a little hard. It was a nice idea but probably needs alot of work.". Nope, lets put that in too.
"Hey, you know these drone amps? The CPU seems intensive for ships that would actually use them and the bonus is a little low. Also it just seems silly as a low slot when other drone mods are high.". Turns out, 30 cpu wasnt enough, so they put 32 on there and put it in game. Hooray!
Now yea, I know you have your deadlines but we told you this for a long time, It didnt mean you had to push them all in game. Expecially the unfinished parts. I surely hope you dont ever take the route of not listening to your players.
Canis Minoris
Perkone
Caldari State
#347 - 2012-05-29 03:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Canis Minoris
What I would like to know is, will you make the current UI system as functional as the old one? Or are we eventually going to end up with something that, even after 10 minutes of setup and customisation from a fresh installation, will still require more user input and/or time than the old system?

Okay so CCP, you have made it clear that it is "technically impossible" to rollback to the old system. Fine, but nothing is stopping you from recreating the old system pound-for-pound upon the new code and giving players a choice between both systems.

If you have a set of IRREVERSIBLE changes/revamps that the majority of your test base on SiSi do not agree with, then don't release it on TQ until the majority of dislikers becomes the minority.
CCP gambled on this one thinking all the mass criticism on SiSi would just be a minority on TQ.

Also, CCP, at what point do you look at a constructive feedback post from the test server regarding the UI changes and then dismiss it as "This player isn't giving the new system a chance..." If it requires more user input just to do the same thing on the old system then it is not a change for the best.
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#348 - 2012-05-29 03:45:44 UTC
I can appreciate the fact that eve's UI can be overwhelming and the desire to simplify it can be extremely attractive.
especially when it is considered to be one of the larger hurdles when it comes to new player retention.

With that being said i am unsure where the current philosophy on UI design is coming from lately .
It is a trend that is evident in smart phones, tablets, applications and even new operating systems.
All in a effort to simply the end user experience .

Apparently this simplification is coming at the cost of advanced user utility , and the same ideology is seen with eve's new interface. The initial experience with the new UI is pleasant on the face and it is relatively intuitive. As long as you do not need more advanced functionality, the interface could be considered an alternative (one might argue it is better but im not going to be that forgiving) .

With that being said i feel that this new interface design can be a huge opportunity to give eve players a more powerful user interface . You have a lot of great feed back here in the two dev blogs regarding this .
All that is needed now is to abandon what ever design philosophy that lead to the new ui, take up the mantra of the power user and implement all the right click functionality, multiple windows, and great player feedback no matter how perverse it is to the underlying philosophy that created the new UI.

Maybe even look up from that spread sheet that told you, players were put off by the old inventory system. Start building some test, player experiences in game. Then try to accomplish tasks that have been demonstrated for you in these blogs. Focus on making those tasks easier and also provide some intelligence to the code that will aid the player in management of complex task .

I know this may sound scary but also allow for the player to customize how the ui works for them
cause not all players require certain features, but those who do usually use it as a daily staple of how they play the game.

Focus on nailing the advanced user experience. Because all those new players, you hope to retain will become advanced users in the future. If the functionality is there playing eve will be the deep and involving experience that created your core player base to begin with.
Aaronix
Dred's Mission Runners
#349 - 2012-05-29 04:10:36 UTC
I couldn't help but notice that the Corporate hanger permissions issue is not really acknowledged on any of the dev posts and is blatantly absent from the list for Tuesdays update post by CCP Soundwave.

Just to reiterate this is the problem

All except directors and the CEO of a corp get "You have been denied access for the following reason: You require take access to open the container requested" and the joy of having to log out and back in again to get access to anything in any hanger.

Maybe i am missing the point of a corp hanger, but i always figured it was to have a controlled way to share items with corp members. Right now it is useless

Look forward to seeing a dev take notice of this issue and comment on it. Preferably in a patch notice.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2012-05-29 05:32:41 UTC
I was (again) playing around on SiSi - just a little:
- the active ship is now nicely highlighted in the ships pane - good job.
- the performance issues seem to have improved, however, to really test it, I need to try and transfer about 10Km3 of assorted mission loot. Today on TQ doing that transfer ( trade between players) literally took 15 mins to trade, and another 15 mins to populate the items pane. The SiSi rules indicate that we are not supposed to do "mass" things, so I avoided pushing the envelope. We'll see in the A.M. anyway.
- the main inventory winow is still really large and inrterferes with monitoring the screen. Try doing POCO ops in lo sec with a big fat inventory window up plus the CO pane which can't be shrunk down - a recipe to become a wreck and podded.
- I think window attribute handling (remembering size, location, etc) seems to be better, but I did not test this extensively.
- I did not have time to test other quirky stuff, like failure to drag and drop properly into jet cans without having to drop into the space between the icons.
- As a design complaint (not necessarily a functional issue) - I simply don't like the pricing the info at all when it seems to be on every window at all times and automatically upon hovering. It's stupid. And it takes up more screen space, even if on a single line like the guys who posted the jpg depicted. Can you make an on/off switch for that feature? Please? Pretty please? It is useful on market day (which was today for me - my weekly trip to Jita). It is an annoyance the rest of the time.

If a DEV could clarify whether or not transferring 10Km3 loot constitutes "overloading the server", I'd appreciate it. I'd like to test stuff out using the exact tasks and prodedures I do on TQ.

I'll post more as I play around on TQ in the A.M. It's way late, so I'm not going to proof read ....
disasteur
disasterous industries
#351 - 2012-05-29 05:41:49 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
Off topic and non-constructive posts removed.

Please remember that this thread is to discuss the devblog in a constructive way. We know how much unhappiness and dissatisfaction was created, but to resolve this situation as fast as possible, it is necessary to have your posts right on the topic while being constructive. This way our developers can read in an efficiently way your feedback and do not need to spend unnecessary time filtering out off topic posts.

Thank you for your help!


If you could make a dev-blog about how you're going to collect (and react to) more feedback on massive changes before releasing them to TQ, I bet you'll get a higher percentage of constructive responses, and it would probably ease the frustration you're feeling about the window.

The Window isn't really the problem, it's the symptom...



@ CCP, dont you think its time you respond to all the info and suggestions given to you?
i have seen nummerous great idea's on the issue but still you fail to give some feedback yourself, most of the anger here is based on the fact you left us hanging here thinking we do matter, and we clearly do not!

@ CSM, with a few acceptions you really suck, you have been choosen by the players, to speak for the players, dont you think its time to speak out? or was it to be elected just 1 big ego trip?
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#352 - 2012-05-29 05:59:10 UTC
Put to dark of text in the Inventory on the list as well. Not sure why the inventory text would be darker then the rest of the UI.
Daeva Teresa
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#353 - 2012-05-29 05:59:23 UTC
The aproximate cost of assets (not sure how to name this function) is not updating in some cases. For example if you are minning (lol), you need to click the window to update.

I would really apreciate better layout of the features, that takes up less space (was sugested before).
Maybe even collapsing of the estimated cost and number of items.

Also change colapsing of the tree, so that window with items will not enlage to take up the tree's space, and add option to colapse the items window, soo that only the tree is visible.

I will try to do some photoshoping later to ilustrate some ideas of better layout.

CCP really please dont use Upgraded, Limited, Experimental and Prototype in item names. It sounds like the item is actually worse than basic meta 1 item. Use Calibrated, Enhanced, Optimized and Upgraded. Its really easy to understand that the item is better than meta 1 and its also in alphabetic order.

Dennie Fleetfoot
DUST University
#354 - 2012-05-29 06:29:54 UTC
I've not been logging on much since Inferno launched because of mess. The games is now unplayable on either my missioning, industrial AND my exploration alts so it's just checking skill queues till CCP pull their finger out.

Mind you the weather has been glorious in the UK so between that and Dust at night over the weekend it's not been much of a loss.

At least I'm not getting stressed using the new version of windows 3.1 that CCP seem to think is groundbreaking. Hopefully today's patch, for the patch, for the patch might sort some of it out.

CEO Dust University

CPM 1&2 Member

www.twitter.com/DennieFleetfoot

Rommiee
Mercury Inc.
#355 - 2012-05-29 06:55:11 UTC
Dennie Fleetfoot wrote:
I've not been logging on much since Inferno launched because of mess. The games is now unplayable on either my missioning, industrial AND my exploration alts so it's just checking skill queues till CCP pull their finger out.

Mind you the weather has been glorious in the UK so between that and Dust at night over the weekend it's not been much of a loss.

At least I'm not getting stressed using the new version of windows 3.1 that CCP seem to think is groundbreaking. Hopefully today's patch, for the patch, for the patch might sort some of it out.


Don't hold your breath
WolfSchwarzMond
Doomheim
#356 - 2012-05-29 07:13:39 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:

I beg you to honestly give the new system a try. If you still don't like it and you aren't able to find an equally good or better work flow for your tasks, tell us why. Many of you have already done so, and we will are already acting on that feedback, but keep it coming. Telling us that it sucks won't help anyone, l.


Ok I've tried and tried to figure out a way to use this thing as well as the old one...It cannot be done. Here is why.


Opening multiple cans/wrecks lags the entire game. For mission looting this makes the game almost unplayable. For Jetcan Miners like me it causes us to lose cycles which is lost isk.
The loading time on the windows is just unacceptable. 0.5-2mins to load your own hold if your're in a POS. 3mins to load a Ship Maintence array.
Opening all the holds on a Rorqual or an Orca now takes twice as many clicks as it did and you have to play with the little tree.
Opening Corp hangers where you can read them requires a window that is so very large, you can't really do anything else.
Opening Corp hanger with Security Roles and a Large Corp will almost if not totally crash Eve.
The little graph that indicates cargo hold seems to generate lag.
The new window header and footer makes the amount of room to see Items even smaller then the old way did making you blow the window up bigger resulting in less room to work mutiple windows. This is a major issue when working a Rorqual/Orca
It does not remember window locations/size when you dock/undock
If you misclick and don't press shift you have to start all over. Try picking No Back Button.
The Filters tree? menu? won't stay down.
When you remove Items from your cargo hold into the Item hanger using only 1 window, it auto sorts them forcing you to search for the new items. Think of having to haul in some mods for a new ship fitting, Before you could justdrop them in the Item hanger get in new ship fit the mods cause they were at the bottom of the items. Now drop them in, get in new ship and SEARCH for mods they're not at the bottom like they were they're sorted in with everything else.....
The search function on the new UI RESETS every time you change Hangers/hold this makes locating a specific item a pain.
Moving large amounts of items generates Lag or results in some Items not being moved.
It is now stupidly easy to drop something in the wrong location.....forcing you to go look for it.
Previously if you had Tab 2 in your Orca Corp hanger opened and then opened POS Corp Hanger or SAA Tab 2 would open by default. Now it just opens the 1st tab.
The loot all button does NOT stack ore in the holds nor does it give you the option to take just as much ore as will fit in your hold it's all or nothing.
EVERYTHING to do with dealing with items now takes LONGER and is harder to do. This system IMHO is a step BACKWARD in that it is not simple to operate. You are forcing us for some reason I cannot fathom to use a system that is inherently more difficult to operate then the old one. This is not a "get used to it issue" This system is not as intelligent as the old one.

A great number of your CUSTOMERS, are upset about your product. You need to be willing to accept that while someone thought this was the way to go, your CUSTOMERS, the people you work for, the people who PAY you for your product DO NOT LIKE IT. Do us all a favor. Admit the mistake and correct it

This
CCP Optimal wrote:
and I must stretch what has already been stated that reverting the entire thing is not an option (It's also as good as technically impossible).
Is IMHO the wrong thing to say. Most people will read it as "this is what you will now use. Get used to it." Also CCP made it, CCP can UNMAKE IT so it is not technically impossible. Saying that is lying to your customers. It may be difficult and you don't want to do it, that doesn't mean you cannot do it.

I'll leave you with this Quote "The greatest lesson for me is the realization that EVE belongs to you, and we at CCP are just the hosts of your experience." -Hilmar Veigar Pétursson, CEO
You are failing as hosts at this time.

Peter Tjordenskiold
#357 - 2012-05-29 07:17:21 UTC
WolfSchwarzMond wrote:
[quote=CCP Optimal]
I'll leave you with this Quote "The greatest lesson for me is the realization that EVE belongs to you, and we at CCP are just the hosts of your experience." -Hilmar Veigar Pétursson, CEO



/this
TravelBuoy
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#358 - 2012-05-29 07:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: TravelBuoy
MotherMoon wrote:
Mullethead wrote:
Dear CCP

We appreciate that you want to make this new inventory clicky clicky work and for persistence you all get top marks...well done (golf claps).

What many/alot/tons of us REALLY want is a way to revert to the old style of inventory. Heaps of us have been asking for a button to tick to do this for a week now.

Granted this new inventory has some nice features but (its a big but) lets not turn Eve into "File Tree Online"!

It takes a lot longer to do just about anything with this inventory.

Please for the love of all thing Amarrian give us a way to disable the damn thing and revert to the old inventory sytle and system!

If you can do it for ship spinning/CQ you can do it for this.

Its only a little check box.

The check box is allready there. It closes the tree. It's in the items window itself


And i have button for hide you posts. :P
This inventory tree is crap. We want separated windows. We dont want to see pos modules in our cargo.We dont want push shift+mouse buttons thousand times ,over and over because bad developed UI.
We want chop this trees.
It's a spaceship game, who want to docking up to inventory ? Thats why i said , this is a "DockingInventoryBay" This is ridiculous and unlogic thing. Bring back the old hangar button.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#359 - 2012-05-29 08:26:12 UTC
Maraner wrote:
Unwanted, disliked, laggy, unresposnsive, buggy, slower than what we had and just plain stupid given the mountains of feedback prior to launch.

It's INCARNA 2.0

Step up and roll it back or make it optional - prove that you have learn't from the past and adapted and evolved from your Incarna moment. Dont roll this in to another 5k subsription loss moment of madness, get it back to Sisi, get it fixed then deploy it.



it's not incarna 2.0

Back then they didn't say "oh man we're unhappy with it tooa nd will fix it" they waited like a month before saying"ok ok we're dumb sorry."

So no it's not the same, but you'r point is still on mark.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Spanking Monkeys
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#360 - 2012-05-29 08:29:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Spanking Monkeys
WolfSchwarzMond wrote:
CCP Optimal wrote:

I beg you to honestly give the new system a try. If you still don't like it and you aren't able to find an equally good or better work flow for your tasks, tell us why. Many of you have already done so, and we will are already acting on that feedback, but keep it coming. Telling us that it sucks won't help anyone, l.


Ok I've tried and tried to figure out a way to use this thing as well as the old one...It cannot be done. Here is why.


Opening multiple cans/wrecks lags the entire game. For mission looting this makes the game almost unplayable. For Jetcan Miners like me it causes us to lose cycles which is lost isk.
The loading time on the windows is just unacceptable. 0.5-2mins to load your own hold if your're in a POS. 3mins to load a Ship Maintence array.
Opening all the holds on a Rorqual or an Orca now takes twice as many clicks as it did and you have to play with the little tree.
Opening Corp hangers where you can read them requires a window that is so very large, you can't really do anything else.
Opening Corp hanger with Security Roles and a Large Corp will almost if not totally crash Eve.
The little graph that indicates cargo hold seems to generate lag.
The new window header and footer makes the amount of room to see Items even smaller then the old way did making you blow the window up bigger resulting in less room to work mutiple windows. This is a major issue when working a Rorqual/Orca
It does not remember window locations/size when you dock/undock
If you misclick and don't press shift you have to start all over. Try picking No Back Button.
The Filters tree? menu? won't stay down.
When you remove Items from your cargo hold into the Item hanger using only 1 window, it auto sorts them forcing you to search for the new items. Think of having to haul in some mods for a new ship fitting, Before you could justdrop them in the Item hanger get in new ship fit the mods cause they were at the bottom of the items. Now drop them in, get in new ship and SEARCH for mods they're not at the bottom like they were they're sorted in with everything else.....
The search function on the new UI RESETS every time you change Hangers/hold this makes locating a specific item a pain.
Moving large amounts of items generates Lag or results in some Items not being moved.
It is now stupidly easy to drop something in the wrong location.....forcing you to go look for it.
Previously if you had Tab 2 in your Orca Corp hanger opened and then opened POS Corp Hanger or SAA Tab 2 would open by default. Now it just opens the 1st tab.
The loot all button does NOT stack ore in the holds nor does it give you the option to take just as much ore as will fit in your hold it's all or nothing.
EVERYTHING to do with dealing with items now takes LONGER and is harder to do. This system IMHO is a step BACKWARD in that it is not simple to operate. You are forcing us for some reason I cannot fathom to use a system that is inherently more difficult to operate then the old one. This is not a "get used to it issue" This system is not as intelligent as the old one.

A great number of your CUSTOMERS, are upset about your product. You need to be willing to accept that while someone thought this was the way to go, your CUSTOMERS, the people you work for, the people who PAY you for your product DO NOT LIKE IT. Do us all a favor. Admit the mistake and correct it

This
CCP Optimal wrote:
and I must stretch what has already been stated that reverting the entire thing is not an option (It's also as good as technically impossible).
Is IMHO the wrong thing to say. Most people will read it as "this is what you will now use. Get used to it." Also CCP made it, CCP can UNMAKE IT so it is not technically impossible. Saying that is lying to your customers. It may be difficult and you don't want to do it, that doesn't mean you cannot do it.

I'll leave you with this Quote "The greatest lesson for me is the realization that EVE belongs to you, and we at CCP are just the hosts of your experience." -Hilmar Veigar Pétursson, CEO
You are failing as hosts at this time.



this needs to be said until you at CCP take it on board.

you have broken your product, no amount of time or use will take away from the fact that a reduction in functionality is not acceptible.
the system is broken as a concept. 'you need multiple windows so we give you one..' that the hell were you smoking when you came up with this?
why didnt you wait to roll this on to tq, when all the feed back said it wasnt ready?