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New dev blog: This Week In The Unified Inventory

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Tex Bloodhunter
SciFiCentral Explorations Inc.
#201 - 2012-05-28 02:08:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tex Bloodhunter
One thing I liked most about the old system was the ability to have two item containers open in order to drag an drop from one place to the other. The important part here is that you just need two, not 20 item containers opened. With the new system you wanted to get closer to the way files are being moved around in any modern OS. EVERYBODY uses two windows in order to move stuff from A to B. That's why tools like midnight commander and Norton commander were built ... FTP tools, also feature two file explorers. In Windows you just use two explorer instances and so on. This is currently missing with EVE's unified inventory. You just need to make the last step in order to get new item management paradigm going.
Seatox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2012-05-28 02:44:09 UTC
The new inventory system needs to be more unified with the Neocom - it'd be nice to be able to create shortcuts on the neocom bar that are context sensitive for things like individual POS hangers/fuel bays, or a current station's hanger, or a specific station hangar, or a SMA, that only show up if the inventory node in question is available.

You could then use it to replicate the functionality of the old ship/hangar buttons that used to be above the undock button. Throw in the ability to fake up a close replica of the old system with some extra checkbox options (say, "open new inventory panes in seperate windows"), and suddenly people who fear change can revert to their beloved million-windows interface.
Race Drones
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2012-05-28 02:57:39 UTC
CCP is falling in the Scope Creep.

Ignorance is curable, Stupidity is not.

The "Planet of the Apes" is not science fiction, is a daily reality.

All is in "The Matrix".

See Beyond the Obvious.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#204 - 2012-05-28 02:59:57 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Yes, thanks for quoting what I said and adding absolutely nothing of value to the discussion.

Value is subjective sweetheart.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#205 - 2012-05-28 03:02:29 UTC
Ispia Jaydrath wrote:
Before inferno, I would dock and my ship hangar, items, and corp hangar would all be open right where I left them. I could see everything I owned and interact with it instantly.

That was really nice. I think it's something we should have again.


This I really miss. As a primarily industrial player having windows always open the size and position they were in when last closed was really convenient. Especially when managing POS modules. Just click and open and they were always in the same spot. No I have to move and re-size each window every time. Very annoying.
Dawnmist
#206 - 2012-05-28 03:08:49 UTC
Seatox wrote:
The new inventory system needs to be more unified with the Neocom - it'd be nice to be able to create shortcuts on the neocom bar that are context sensitive for things like individual POS hangers/fuel bays, or a current station's hanger, or a specific station hangar, or a SMA, that only show up if the inventory node in question is available.

You could then use it to replicate the functionality of the old ship/hangar buttons that used to be above the undock button. Throw in the ability to fake up a close replica of the old system with some extra checkbox options (say, "open new inventory panes in seperate windows"), and suddenly people who fear change can revert to their beloved million-windows interface.


Yep.

An in general this new system should have been built in correct order:

1. Add all the basic functionality what old system had.
2. Make all windows behave (stack, save, persist) like they did in old system.
3. Add more features which support old functionality.
4. Add totally new functionality which maybe helps and works for someone.

...but no - victory goes to the one who yelled "scrap 1-3" - we are CCP and skip boldly directly to line four, call it improvement and pretty efficiently ruin everyone's game play in the process.
Seatox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2012-05-28 03:21:43 UTC
Dawnmist wrote:
Seatox wrote:
The new inventory system needs to be more unified with the Neocom - it'd be nice to be able to create shortcuts on the neocom bar that are context sensitive for things like individual POS hangers/fuel bays, or a current station's hanger, or a specific station hangar, or a SMA, that only show up if the inventory node in question is available.

You could then use it to replicate the functionality of the old ship/hangar buttons that used to be above the undock button. Throw in the ability to fake up a close replica of the old system with some extra checkbox options (say, "open new inventory panes in seperate windows"), and suddenly people who fear change can revert to their beloved million-windows interface.


Yep.

An in general this new system should have been built in correct order:

1. Add all the basic functionality what old system had.
2. Make all windows behave (stack, save, persist) like they did in old system.
3. Add more features which support old functionality.
4. Add totally new functionality which maybe helps and works for someone.

...but no - victory goes to the one who yelled "scrap 1-3" - we are CCP and skip boldly directly to line four, call it improvement and pretty efficiently ruin everyone's game play in the process.


It's not too bad, considering that the old system was held together by the finest Minmatar engineering (Duct-tape and bailing wire). At least we get spinning wheels of LOADING PLEASE WAIT to tell us when the inventory is lagging now.

Give them a few weeks of Crucible style rapid-fixing-stuff and it'll be pretty sweet by the end of it.
disasteur
disasterous industries
#208 - 2012-05-28 03:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: disasteur
CCP Optimal wrote:
I've not been able to be very active on the forums for the last couple of days simple because my time is better spent fixing defects as it is.

First, on the SISI thing; it's true that we let a few issues slip us and that's regrettable, but it is simply a fact that not all issues surface on test servers. We certainly did fix a LOT of issues that we discovered through your feedback from SISI. But, not all of them sadly.

Revamping a fundamental system, used by every single player, such as the inventory system so that it will fit every player's needs and expectations from day one is a tall order to say the least. There is probably no other system within EVE that is as multidimensional as the inventory and the use cases seem to be endless. The old system had not changed much at all and most of you veterans could probably operate it at lightning speeds blindfolded. Having to waste time re-learning basic things is annoying as hell and I get it. I've been there myself. I would be pretty furious if someone forced me to use a different Python editor, and it would probably slow me down tremendously for the first couple of days or even weeks. A fitting punishment for my crimes maybe?

THE biggest complaint about the EVE UI, according to our surveys, is the number of windows needed to accomplish tasks. We identified the inventory as being one of the biggest violator and that's why we went on this journey (not because we like to spend Sunday afternoons on the EVE forums, lovely as they are, mind you!). A lot of things have changed in the world of user interfaces during the last 10 years, and I think it's safe to say that a game shipping with the old EVE inventory system EVE today would receive mixed reviews.

The old system had been brewing out in the wild for 9 years, but the new one for less than a week, so obviously it has not received the same amount of updates and fixes. We are, and will be working hard to make sure that no matter your profession in EVE, you will have an equally or faster way of doing what you need to do.

I beg you to honestly give the new system a try. If you still don't like it and you aren't able to find an equally good or better work flow for your tasks, tell us why. Many of you have already done so, and we will are already acting on that feedback, but keep it coming. Telling us that it sucks won't help anyone, and I must stretch what has already been stated that reverting the entire thing is not an option (It's also as good as technically impossible). Making it optional is also not optional (confusingly enough) as it would require us to maintain two systems side by side which would cause an exponential increase in code and interface complexity if we were to make a habit of it. It's not as simple or as good of an idea as it might seem at first.

One of the hardest part of EVE is dealing with the UI and we are constantly being asked to change it. When we do, people without exceptions ask for the old one back. Doing both is obviously impossible. There is still work to be done and work we shall.


the biggest complaint is that the majority doesnt like it and wants the old system back, further more there are many players around with the patience to give it a try (im not one of them cus i dont have the patience) and still they come here or in 1 of the other topics to complain about it.

i mean how many posts does it take to convince you guys at CCP that the new UI is a total waste of time?
also most reply's done by CCP are unfounded, not answering the question, or just total offtopic.

about the changing part... most people asked a roleback, and some asked to do some changes on the new UI, but what you had to do was listening to the people in the testforums.
so once again stop fixing the new crap and work on the old UI to return, so everybody can be happy again
edit...


and btw a roleback is done before in the far past, but the fact you didnt listen right away to all the complaints made it imposible, or atleast it seems imposible
Citrute
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#209 - 2012-05-28 03:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Citrute
How about you put the old inventory system back while you make these weekly changes.

I'll just be over here, playing not eve until this mess is sorted.

Jonuts wrote:
Quote:

We did not ignore feedback at all. In some cases we didn't agree. In some cases we did agree and made changes. In some cases we felt that players weren't even giving the new proposed way of doing things a chance and that it might just be a matter of getting used to. It's certain that we didn't get everything right the first time around. That's why we have iteration.


You're right. It's totally our fault. We're all too ******* stupid to tell the difference between "This is different" and "This is garbage". I apologize. I didn't mean to offend your superior sensibilities. How dare us lowly people who actually have to USE this system criticize it.


quoting for truth
Jonuts
The Arrow Project
#210 - 2012-05-28 05:05:41 UTC
Seatox wrote:


You could then use it to replicate the functionality of the old ship/hangar buttons that used to be above the undock button. Throw in the ability to fake up a close replica of the old system with some extra checkbox options (say, "open new inventory panes in seperate windows"), and suddenly people who fear change can revert to their beloved million-windows interface.



Fear change. I never really understood that accusation. Change can be totally awesome. When it's for the better. Not liking a specific change isn't necessarily because someone fears change. Most folks bitching about this UI change legitimately dislike it. Remember, just because I don't want to get punched in the mouth every morning as my new morning routine doesn't mean I fear change, it just means I don't want to have to be punched in the mouth every morning.
Kile Kitmoore
#211 - 2012-05-28 05:25:56 UTC
Fix now:
1. Windows state. If someone wants 10 windows open when they dock in a station then EVE needs to remember this and save their size and position. The UI should distinguish between UI in a ship and docked. If someone wants small separate windows for opening cans the UI should remember this. This also includes pilots being able to actually turn things off to get more viewing area in windows, we need options. Just give back the functionality you took. Sway pilots over to a one window system by putting in things that will be more efficient and easier to work with.

2. Performance, now I appreciate that you have done another round of performance tweaks. My fear is that with the Price Estimate in this constant state of always being on that you will not be able to give back the performance pilots once enjoyed. If Tues. patch does not accomplish this it's time to consider giving people the option to turn Price. Est. off.

Sooner Rather then Later:
I really want to use a single window, I really do. In the current state it makes it to difficult.

1. Enough with this BS where if someone puts something in a station container it goes into a black hole. When I click Item Hanger and I have station containers under it I expect UI to show me everything, including the contents of those station containers. One big master list of all my items in station. Not everyone may want this so, make it optional. This is where you actual make the treeview useful.

2. The same goes for containers in space, if have a number of containers opened in space there should be a parent that I click and view all the content of those containers. Why you did not build this functionality absolutely boggles the mind.

Lots of other ideas but it's those four that I feel would at least get things back on track and move us in a proper direction. Good luck.
Seatox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2012-05-28 05:31:45 UTC
Jonuts wrote:
Seatox wrote:


You could then use it to replicate the functionality of the old ship/hangar buttons that used to be above the undock button. Throw in the ability to fake up a close replica of the old system with some extra checkbox options (say, "open new inventory panes in seperate windows"), and suddenly people who fear change can revert to their beloved million-windows interface.



Fear change. I never really understood that accusation. Change can be totally awesome. When it's for the better. Not liking a specific change isn't necessarily because someone fears change. Most folks bitching about this UI change legitimately dislike it. Remember, just because I don't want to get punched in the mouth every morning as my new morning routine doesn't mean I fear change, it just means I don't want to have to be punched in the mouth every morning.


It would be totally awesome... if it wasn't for the bugs and teething problems, and the way it suddenly forces people to unlearn thing they've been doing for years in order to cope with all the inconveniences of the old system (a million windows) in order to learn to cope with the inconveniences of the new system (shift click everything). If CCP had started out with the new inventory system and switched to the old one, we'd have a far, far bigger outcry. "MY INVENTORY FILTERS GIVE THEM BACK" etc.

I mean, look what happened when they took out contact folders in Tyrannis. They ended up putting them back in.

Really, from my personal experience with the thing, my biggest complaints are pretty much addressed by what's supposed to be in the Tuesday patch (Performance of the inventory near a POS). I'd say the whole debacle could have been avoided if they'd delayed Crucible by a week - but then people would complain about CCP pushing the release date back.

CCP just can't win with the playerbase as a collective.
Dawnmist
#213 - 2012-05-28 05:39:11 UTC
Seatox wrote:
Jonuts wrote:
Seatox wrote:


You could then use it to replicate the functionality of the old ship/hangar buttons that used to be above the undock button. Throw in the ability to fake up a close replica of the old system with some extra checkbox options (say, "open new inventory panes in seperate windows"), and suddenly people who fear change can revert to their beloved million-windows interface.



Fear change. I never really understood that accusation. Change can be totally awesome. When it's for the better. Not liking a specific change isn't necessarily because someone fears change. Most folks bitching about this UI change legitimately dislike it. Remember, just because I don't want to get punched in the mouth every morning as my new morning routine doesn't mean I fear change, it just means I don't want to have to be punched in the mouth every morning.


It would be totally awesome... if it wasn't for the bugs and teething problems, and the way it suddenly forces people to unlearn thing they've been doing for years in order to cope with all the inconveniences of the old system (a million windows) in order to learn to cope with the inconveniences of the new system (shift click everything). If CCP had started out with the new inventory system and switched to the old one, we'd have a far, far bigger outcry. "MY INVENTORY FILTERS GIVE THEM BACK" etc.

I mean, look what happened when they took out contact folders in Tyrannis. They ended up putting them back in.

Really, from my personal experience with the thing, my biggest complaints are pretty much addressed by what's supposed to be in the Tuesday patch (Performance of the inventory near a POS). I'd say the whole debacle could have been avoided if they'd delayed Crucible by a week - but then people would complain about CCP pushing the release date back.

CCP just can't win with the playerbase as a collective.


Btw they released inferno. Perhaps you should log in some time ?
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#214 - 2012-05-28 05:41:24 UTC
Just as we can create presets for the Overview, provide the same capability to the tree.

Certain presets (docked for example) include a check-off that places the 'storage unit' into the main UI. While docked, a pilot might wish to have the Ship Hangar icon visible on the main UI.

Certain presets (at a POS) can limit the arrays, silos, weapons, etc., that appear in the tree.

All possible storage containers, cans, cargo bays, weapon arrays are not equally important all the time. What we use is based upon where we are and what we're doing.

The one-size-fits all approach only produces a bloat, disorganized impediment to game play. If I have to set aside time to create presets so be it! I'll do it once and be done with it.
Archibald Frederick III
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#215 - 2012-05-28 05:45:13 UTC
Cloned S0ul wrote:
Hi Devs.
[...]

My question to you CCP, why you change best working mechanism in game ?

Ps.While we old players can deal with your new full of wired mechanic inventory im 100% sure newbis need spent more time to discovery how it works... Why you bring chaos to game ?


Since I've been playing for less than a month, perhaps I'm less invested in some of the more complex game systems or haven't been exposed to some of the use cases that people feel have been messed up. Maybe. However, I can say with assurance that the new system is MUCH easier for 'newbis' such as myself to get our heads around. It would take some mighty rose-tinted goggles to say that the inventory was 'the best working mechanism in the game,' and while the new system has plenty of room for improvement, this is a good and necessary thing that you are doing. I feel like not enough people are saying that. Fix the bugs, restore the lost functionality, but never believe that the playerbase is unanimous in wanting a return to the good old days.
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#216 - 2012-05-28 06:16:47 UTC
One question to any CCP:

Are you willed to work on an option or possibility, that every player who wants to have several hundreds of independent, adjustable in size and position, windows; is able to absolute rebuild the old UI and its functions 100% EXACT and 1to1 as it was before 22.05.2012?

Simple question. Now please answer.

To be absolute clear:
- I want my ship hangar Icon in the Neocom back
- I want double clicks -> Shift + Click or Shift + Shortcut is in absolute NO WAY a solution! I want to play a game via mouse. Not a text based game!
- I want to double click at a container in my assets and it must open in a new (adjustable in size and position) window.
- I want to be able to rupture the whole unified UI; which means drag a tab and drop it FOR EVER out of this unified UI. It must stay out of this unified UI even when I log off an on.
- I want my hundreds of windows back!

Are you willed to work on that? You better should answer now so that I am able to have a look for a new game or renew my subscription again.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#217 - 2012-05-28 06:24:11 UTC
You know, I think in the long term I can live with the inventory after it gets fixed, but why you CCP *removed functionality* in favor of an half finished blingbling product is beyond me.

Take an Orca for example, drag ship out from ship hangar (Which I was forced (not a good thing) to dock with the station icons), and plop it down in the station. Orca goes live and I quickly want to access the corp bay on it.

I can't.

Why? Because my previous right click menu no longer gives that option.
Again I'm forced to use a drop down menu and then have to shift through tiny little branches that may be open or not to find what I'm looking for.

In short:
previous: Orca -> r-click = direct access to the hangars & bays
Recently: Orca -> click inventory = wait for it to load -> Open Orca tab (which can be yes/ no case) -> open corporation hangars (which can be yes/ no case), then access what hangar bay I want to open.

You probably mean good, unless you're knowingly grieving usTwisted but something so fundamental as this change should had gone through much more testing & feedback from your end users before it got pressed down their throats.

Is it already that long ago that you removed our hangar bay and we had to tell you that was a big mistake? :o
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#218 - 2012-05-28 06:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Callidus Dux
Archibald Frederick III wrote:
Fix the bugs, restore the lost functionality,...


The lost functionality IS the "more than one window" mode. They should just add this feature again. If you like the new crap fine. But they have to absolute rebuild the old UI with their new code, in order to have the functionality of the old UI back. AFTER that.. and really not until that they can go on and improve the unified UI more. But YOU, as lover of the new, have to wait till the restoration of the former UI is done. I am a subsrciber since 4 years and I must say; that I have a classification system which contains named containers. I hate the idea of filters! I do not need them! The main claim of this new UI is to work faster? Yeah.. If I ever have to adjust my filters to be able to find something? Roll
I just want to reach my containers quickly. But it is not possible with the current state of this UI.


Archibald Frederick III wrote:
...but never believe that the playerbase is unanimous in wanting a return to the good old days.

Do not speculate on that. Read ALL of the forums- and the testserver feedback.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#219 - 2012-05-28 06:30:27 UTC
Archibald Frederick III wrote:
Since I've been playing for less than a month, perhaps I'm less invested in some of the more complex game systems or haven't been exposed to some of the use cases that people feel have been messed up. Maybe.

Definitely. No offense, I have been playing less than a year, and I can tell you that there is no way you have experienced even 1/10th of the game yet.

When you get a chance to get into a WH and you have a POS, and being able to reship, or fit for combat on short notice is crucial, this inventory system is crap.

Not to mention if you were doing heavy duty industrial ops. I can't imagine how bad this screws the guys who actually make the ships we fly around in.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Mar Drakar
LDK
#220 - 2012-05-28 06:32:30 UTC
now that this is moving filehandling-style way, one thing that's missing is back and forward buttons.

Also allow at least two isntances of windows be open, and majority of haters will step back and realize this is actually not that bad of an UI