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New dev blog: Unified Inventory Changes

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#661 - 2012-05-24 20:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Par'Gellen wrote:
Rammix wrote:
Those who feel themselves comfortable usually are not interested to write anything here.

Who are those 8 people?


At least 10 of those 8 people are in my alliance, and Ive only heard from 15--20 of them on the subject. May have said they at first thought it was horrid, then learned how to use it, set up filters, and now think its wonderful. Ive found filters can replace sorting into cans in many cases.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#662 - 2012-05-24 20:40:21 UTC
Sarina Berghil wrote:
It was mentioned in the dev blog that you wanted to change the shift-click behaviour to drag and drop. I don't understand how that is supposed to work. Say I want to open a container located in a station hangar, and I want the contents to open in a new window, where do I 'drag and drop' the container?

They aren't thinking this far ahead.

Right now they are just going to make knee jerk changes hoping that everyone loses the energy to complain and accepts the inventory system and lives with it.

Basically, they are going to outwait all of you. And you'll accept this because you have no power in the situation.

They know it. You should know it.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#663 - 2012-05-24 20:49:00 UTC
Dennie Fleetfoot wrote:
RanCho79 wrote:
Кто сказал что древовидный вид инвентаря лучше старого? Вы там википедии начитались чтоли? Или это такой исландский юмор?
Вместо того чтоб снимать какие то ролики как ваш сотрудник лазает по каким то пушкам - лучше бы заганали его работать.

Вы, ЦЦП, полностью облажались, и даже не торопитесь исправлять то, во что вас сейчас тыкают носом ваши игроки.



Халтура, попустительство и откровенное наплевательство на мнение подписчиков.

Это вам над входом надо повесить, ваш новый девиз, бесплатно.

P.S. Переводите как хотите, вы и так не отрабатываете месячную подписку.


I don't speak Russian but this makes more sense to me than people coming here to tell us to get used to it rather than trying to be constructive.


This
cenourinha
Doomheim
#664 - 2012-05-24 20:51:21 UTC
Madenofpain wrote:



CCP Soundwave wrote:
Maintaining two systems really isn't an option and I've never seen this promised anywhere. As I mentioned, we'll continue making changes and making fixes (like the looting reverting to the main hangar) though, so if you're missing any specific piece of functionality we'll definitely look at the viability of implementing it.


first off, Soundwave the work you do talking to the community is excellent, i wouldn't dream of saying otherwise. the same goes to all the other CCP staff who do likewise, when the **** hits the fan your here listening to everybody vent, trying to help out, that's great, i just wish other staff would at least spend half an hour to an hour a day responding to questions on THEIR work (*cough* CCP Arrow and CCP Optimal *cough*) i know they must be busy but one hour to show that CCP is actually committed to keeping good communication with the player base - especially after incarna - would go much further than you or any other employee saying you don't know you didn't work on it.

now i'm sure this is going to get buried but here goes here are my personal concerns, starting with the really important general one.

first and most important, the process that's happened here is almost identical to incarna. CCP put something on the test server that wasn't ready for deployment, were told about issues over and over again in the feedback thread and then promptly ignored them all and made it mandatory. then to add insult to injury somebody at CCP decided to make a cut and paste support response for, which didn't answer the question asked, outright lies and then points out two things you can do and says "this'll fix it!" when it obviously doesn't.

the lie? "With it, you can more easily manage all of your inventory from one screen" you forgot to add unless you want to move it, then you'll have to scroll like there's no tomorrow if you have a decent number of assets or ships. And lets not mention the extra 5-20 seconds delay i'm experiencing every single time i dock or warp to a POS on a high end machine with a 100mb connection

the two things? why shift click and click the condense arrow of course! then it'll give you the same experience as before! whoever came up with this little gem obviously hasn't tried it, i challenge any one of you to hide the filter and tree system, and get the same functionality. go on. i'll wait.

This is poor communication pure and simple. as is the fact that you and everybody else at CCP seems to be trying their damnedest to ignore the great steaming pile of excrement in the room which is that the overwhelming majority of people on the forums? DO NOT WANT this system bugs or no bugs, they don't like it, it doesn't give the same functionality. most of the rational ones will agree some people will. and THAT is part of the problem, this new UI? isn't inherently good or bad, it's entirely situational and depends on what you do and how you do it for my CEO? it's good, for me? it's nigh useless, and instead of those people getting any sort of reasonable response or attempt at compromise we get what essentially boils down to "tough it's here to stay" which smacks of incarna yet again.

you say two systems aren't really an option? why. give us clear concise reasons. most of EVEs players are not stupid. most of us are professionals or at least adults who will listen to a rational argument. instead of just saying "we can't do it" tell us why not. also last time i checked it was plenty possible for - again - the whole incarna mess which again you said was mandatory and wouldn't be changed.

i really hope i'm wrong but it seems like this expansion is a huge step backwards not only as far as the inventory is concerned but also where CCPs direction is concerned.

to quote Hellmar from his devblog

CCP Hellmar wrote:
But enough talk from me. We all know that much quoted phrase, “It’s not what you say, it’s what you do,” that will make the difference here. From now on, CCP will focus on doing what we say and saying what we do. That is the path to restoring trust and moving forward.


please take 5 minutes and take the time to read that dev blog again and remind yourself of the mistakes and promises you made then.

Here i'll link it for you.

for me? i'm not mad, i'm genuinely sad about this backslide. and as it stands right now i'm not renewing my subs. that simple. no you can't have my stuff. kinda unfortunate that i've been playing for 5 years now, and the month before i hit 100mill SP on my main account you kill the fun i get from the game. i build things, i use my inventory ALL the time, it's by far my most used feature, and you've destroyed it. what was 20minutes work per character is now nearly double that because of all the scrolling, and then second takes because it wasn't scrolling, and then corrections because i dropped materials into the wrong hanger by mistake.

the least it would take to turn this around in my eyes? make the new inventory UI in station only, preferably an option to disable it completely.

the best result as far as i'm concerned? an option to disable it - as like i said some people like it AND an apology for yet again ignoring your players.

and on a side note how exactly do you expect to get more people to test things on SiSi when you make a habit of ignoring the feedback you get from them? really.



My feeling to the letter. I will be unsubing my account as well I return and get a big pile of garbage for a new ui feature
[/quote]


+1 .. so much +1 here

Full of win this post is!
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#665 - 2012-05-24 20:53:08 UTC
Brutal Red wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Well thanks for trying Soundwave. This will take some serious fixing, good luck.

I am trying to NOT jump on the unsubbing bandwagon.....I really am.


Yeah sorry guys, we won't be able to do everything at once, but hopefully we can trickle some fixes out. We had some go out today, some will go out next Tuesday and hopefully we can continue until it's in a better state. Anyway, that's it for now.


What about :

- rollback the inventory system
- deploy inventory system on test server
- fix inventory system

???

The current state of Eve is annoying (I'm being polite here) .
I didn't even login today .

I'm already looking at other things to do in my regular evening gametime Cry

Unless CCP actually wants less players ...


Well, don't matter. Tuesday earliest. Lovely.

Anyone heading to Jita? Betcha you'll see a far number of POS owners and w/h dwellers around the momument. Shocked
Sturmwolke
#666 - 2012-05-24 20:57:03 UTC
Ahahahaha .... I ran some missions today, specifically looting wrecks. Words just fail me at the incompetence demonstrated by the folks that did this. *shakes head*
I have no regrets at directing personal attacks (which got culled by our dear CCP Guard) towards those person(s) responsible in my first post in the Inferno Issues thread.

Probably re-inforcing what's been flagged by others :

* the sheer amount of lag caused by opening and looting wrecks is just mind boggling (5-10 secs pause each wreck/can).
* each looting brings the focus back to active ship cargo, which forces you to re-click the next can/wreck on the list. Another mind boggler.
* screen real estate needed for the UI is at least 2x-3x as much to see everything. The old workflow was a better saver.

You've got a long way to go to sort out this mess.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#667 - 2012-05-24 21:00:01 UTC
Rammix wrote:
I don't like when someone overreact and turn a not-so-bad thing into mud.
Good news: no-one is doing that.

What we're doing here is trying to turn a bad thing into a good one.
Brutal Red
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#668 - 2012-05-24 21:00:02 UTC
What annoys me most is this :

"trickle some fixes out"

Some fixes ??? (if we are lucky I'll guess)

The previous UI just worked fine , restore it , then you have plent of time to "trickle some fixes out" !!

This kind of stuff just pisses me off .
Jonuts
The Arrow Project
#669 - 2012-05-24 21:00:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonuts
Sturmwolke wrote:
Ahahahaha .... I ran some missions today, specifically looting wrecks. Words just fail me at the incompetence demonstrated by the folks that did this. *shakes head*
I have no regrets at directing personal attacks (which got culled by our dear CCP Guard) towards those person(s) responsible in my first post in the Inferno Issues thread.

Probably re-inforcing what's been flagged by others :

* the sheer amount of lag caused by opening and looting wrecks is just mind boggling (5-10 secs pause each wreck/can).
* each looting brings the focus back to active ship cargo, which forces you to re-click the next can/wreck on the list. Another mind boggler.
* screen real estate needed for the UI is at least 2x-3x as much to see everything. The old workflow was a better saver.

You've got a long way to go to sort out this mess.



Long way to go? Dude. It's a pretty quick and easy fix. It's called the "Undo button". They can have us up and running with a system that isn't total **** in 20 minutes. They just refuse to.


It still boggles my mind. This is a rare occasion where the RIGHT thing to do and the EASY thing to do are the exact SAME thing. I could only wish I had problems this easy to deal with in my life. So why aren't they fixing it, taking this unified inventory crap back to the test server, and fixing the UI there?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#670 - 2012-05-24 21:00:49 UTC
Arritha wrote:
Seriously. Please just listen to your customers.

We do not want this new inventory system because it is inefficient. Is it pretty? Yes. Is it a pain in the ass? Yes.

Only one of these makes people ragequit.

Apparently you didn't learn the last time you did this about listening to customers...


What's unfathomable is that they designed the best ASSETS window ever. Yet they want to force us to use it as inventory. What the hell? It's like designing the best coffee machine ever and then selling it to chop trees.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Kasriel
#671 - 2012-05-24 21:01:12 UTC
cenourinha wrote:
Madenofpain wrote:


Kasriel wrote:

CCP Soundwave wrote:
Maintaining two systems really isn't an option and I've never seen this promised anywhere. As I mentioned, we'll continue making changes and making fixes (like the looting reverting to the main hangar) though, so if you're missing any specific piece of functionality we'll definitely look at the viability of implementing it.


first off, Soundwave the work you do talking to the community is excellent, i wouldn't dream of saying otherwise. the same goes to all the other CCP staff who do likewise, when the **** hits the fan your here listening to everybody vent, trying to help out, that's great, i just wish other staff would at least spend half an hour to an hour a day responding to questions on THEIR work (*cough* CCP Arrow and CCP Optimal *cough*) i know they must be busy but one hour to show that CCP is actually committed to keeping good communication with the player base - especially after incarna - would go much further than you or any other employee saying you don't know you didn't work on it.

now i'm sure this is going to get buried but here goes here are my personal concerns, starting with the really important general one.

first and most important, the process that's happened here is almost identical to incarna. CCP put something on the test server that wasn't ready for deployment, were told about issues over and over again in the feedback thread and then promptly ignored them all and made it mandatory. then to add insult to injury somebody at CCP decided to make a cut and paste support response for, which didn't answer the question asked, outright lies and then points out two things you can do and says "this'll fix it!" when it obviously doesn't.

the lie? "With it, you can more easily manage all of your inventory from one screen" you forgot to add unless you want to move it, then you'll have to scroll like there's no tomorrow if you have a decent number of assets or ships. And lets not mention the extra 5-20 seconds delay i'm experiencing every single time i dock or warp to a POS on a high end machine with a 100mb connection

the two things? why shift click and click the condense arrow of course! then it'll give you the same experience as before! whoever came up with this little gem obviously hasn't tried it, i challenge any one of you to hide the filter and tree system, and get the same functionality. go on. i'll wait.

This is poor communication pure and simple. as is the fact that you and everybody else at CCP seems to be trying their damnedest to ignore the great steaming pile of excrement in the room which is that the overwhelming majority of people on the forums? DO NOT WANT this system bugs or no bugs, they don't like it, it doesn't give the same functionality. most of the rational ones will agree some people will. and THAT is part of the problem, this new UI? isn't inherently good or bad, it's entirely situational and depends on what you do and how you do it for my CEO? it's good, for me? it's nigh useless, and instead of those people getting any sort of reasonable response or attempt at compromise we get what essentially boils down to "tough it's here to stay" which smacks of incarna yet again.

you say two systems aren't really an option? why. give us clear concise reasons. most of EVEs players are not stupid. most of us are professionals or at least adults who will listen to a rational argument. instead of just saying "we can't do it" tell us why not. also last time i checked it was plenty possible for - again - the whole incarna mess which again you said was mandatory and wouldn't be changed.

i really hope i'm wrong but it seems like this expansion is a huge step backwards not only as far as the inventory is concerned but also where CCPs direction is concerned.

to quote Hellmar from his devblog

CCP Hellmar wrote:
But enough talk from me. We all know that much quoted phrase, “It’s not what you say, it’s what you do,” that will make the difference here. From now on, CCP will focus on doing what we say and saying what we do. That is the path to restoring trust and moving forward.


please take 5 minutes and take the time to read that dev blog again and remind yourself of the mistakes and promises you made then.

Here i'll link it for you.

for me? i'm not mad, i'm genuinely sad about this backslide. and as it stands right now i'm not renewing my subs. that simple. no you can't have my stuff. kinda unfortunate that i've been playing for 5 years now, and the month before i hit 100mill SP on my main account you kill the fun i get from the game. i build things, i use my inventory ALL the time, it's by far my most used feature, and you've destroyed it. what was 20minutes work per character is now nearly double that because of all the scrolling, and then second takes because it wasn't scrolling, and then corrections because i dropped materials into the wrong hanger by mistake.

the least it would take to turn this around in my eyes? make the new inventory UI in station only, preferably an option to disable it completely.

the best result as far as i'm concerned? an option to disable it - as like i said some people like it AND an apology for yet again ignoring your players.

and on a side note how exactly do you expect to get more people to test things on SiSi when you make a habit of ignoring the feedback you get from them? really.



My feeling to the letter. I will be unsubing my account as well I return and get a big pile of garbage for a new ui feature



+1 .. so much +1 here

Full of win this post is!


thanks, nice to know somebody read it as it seems nobody from CCP has bothered
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#672 - 2012-05-24 21:03:19 UTC
RanCho79 wrote:
Кто сказал что древовидный вид инвентаря лучше старого? Вы там википедии начитались чтоли? Или это такой исландский юмор?
Вместо того чтоб снимать какие то ролики как ваш сотрудник лазает по каким то пушкам - лучше бы заганали его работать.

Вы, ЦЦП, полностью облажались, и даже не торопитесь исправлять то, во что вас сейчас тыкают носом ваши игроки.



Халтура, попустительство и откровенное наплевательство на мнение подписчиков.

Это вам над входом надо повесить, ваш новый девиз, бесплатно.

P.S. Переводите как хотите, вы и так не отрабатываете месячную подписку.


just for clarity, everybody in this thread including CCP: Translated to English

RanCho79 wrote:

Who said what kind of tree inventory better than the old? You've been reading where wikipedia chtoli? Or is this the Icelandic sense of humor?
Instead of shooting videos as what is your employee climbs for some guns - it would be better zaganali it to work.

You, CCP, is completely screwed up and did not even take the time to fix it, what are you poke your nose players.



Trash, indulgence and frank opinion on the naplevatelstvo subscribers.

That you have to hang over the entrance, your new motto, free of charge.

P.S. Translate as you want, and so you do not work out a monthly subscription.
Rammix
TheMurk
#673 - 2012-05-24 21:03:38 UTC
If I were a 'troll', I could have a very nutritious dinner here.
Where are they wandering?

OpenSUSE Leap 42.1, wine >1.9

Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#674 - 2012-05-24 21:08:00 UTC
So after a good night's sleep, plenty of sunshine, lots of ice cream, and a toss, I logged in today (post-patch) to see how much less of a pain the new UI was going to be. And predictably, it still sucks. (Sorry CCP.) You can tweak this thing until the cows come home and you will not solve the problem. The problem for many of us is the one-windowed system. It's forcing many players to shift/click ad nauseum to accomplish what they did with a single click 3 days ago. That's the problem. Of course they're dissatisfied. So when I see the minority posting these "too bad - get used to it" or "why do you even need your ship cargo open" replies, it's doubly annoying. First, no one should ever "get used to" a reduction in productivity or efficiency. Expansions are supposed to improve your gameplay - not hassle the customers with 3x the work they used to have. You don't "get used to" newfound lag in the most-central function in-game that didn't exist 3 days ago either. And, why do I need my ship cargo open? Because I'm not Caldari and I can't just load up a bunch of missiles. Amarr ships are armor-repping cap hogs and Cap Booster 800s are a requirement for many. Because of their size, you can only fit 5-10 in your cargo and as you use them up in combat, what am I supposed to do? Count? No. I need that info readily available and pinned. Every time I open a wreck or can, that info is gone and it requires a couple clicks to re-establish. In combat, adding a repetitive couple-click process that didn't exist 3 days ago just isn't a winning idea. The one window "is" the problem - which is why I'm pretty sure you can't tweak it into awesomesauce.

It seems to me that the UI would have served us much more efficiently as a replacement for the assets tab - since that's what it is. It's an advanced all-assets window. You took away players' station cargo and ship hangar buttons on the neocom and gave us all an universal assets window. This has had the effect of replacing static buttons and one-click functionality with a scrolling/hunting/right clicking/resizing process that is definately more time consuming. For the life of me, I can't fathom how any of the devs at CCP didn't realize this wasn't a good idea. It's crazy. Of course we want the station cargo and ship hangar buttons back on the neocom. I also want my wrecks and cans to open in their own window and to close automatically once looted. I even wouldn't mind the restoration of some right-click functionality - like accessing the drone bay through right clicking on my ship. And all of these windows need to retain their size and remain pinned post redocking / jumping.

I know I am not alone in being someone who has spent years now judiciously arranging his inventory and window size for efficiency. That system, my system, didn't come easily. All those years of planning, organizing, and naming things - just to have it all, in a snap, become meaningless and overly cumbersome - has to be driving some of this rage too. Its a proverbial slap to the face. I know because I feel the pain. You just can't help but feel that whoever pushed this idea didn't take player considerations into account....and isn't that in itself mindboggling?

Even if CCP figures out how to jump through all the hoops we're asking them to, at the end of the day, this will still be a one-windowed system that requires more work to do the same task than it did a couple days ago. Is that click increase insurmountable with enough tweaking - who knows? I love this game and I'm not planning on leaving it but I can't help but feel dissatisfied also atm. I usually don't complain about anything. I've been here 4 years and I joined the forum only yesterday just to protest the new UI, because yes, it's that bad. It has fundamentally and negatively altered my gameplay. When a loss of productivity and time efficiency is packaged as a "feature," well, it sure doesn't leave one very optimistic about the future. And in a game where we build and build and invest so much time and energy, feeling unsure about the future is totally counterproductive to long-term retention.

My solution would be to use the new UI as a revamped assets tab, restoring station hangar and ship hangar buttons to the neocom, and restoring single-click, multi-window functionality, as per the 3-days-ago system, with regards to ship cargo, drone bays, chas, etc. But hey that's just me.


-- Yonis Kador

P.S. I'd also like to personally thank Tippia for the well-reasoned and well-written commentary here and in other topics on this subject. It's great to see that someone understands and can articulate the cons of a loss of in-game efficiency and also explain why that's bad repeatedly to the "shift/click its easy" genuises.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#675 - 2012-05-24 21:12:16 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
So after a good night's sleep, plenty of sunshine, lots of ice cream, and a toss, I logged in today (post-patch) to see how much less of a pain the new UI was going to be. And predictably, it still sucks. (Sorry CCP.) You can tweak this thing until the cows come home and you will not solve the problem.

Big Unified Wall Of Text.



TLDR: Today I tried and see the results of you CCP polishing a turd but I still got my hands all brown and smelly.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
devilsdriver
Dark.Fleet
#676 - 2012-05-24 21:23:07 UTC
heres my suggestion on your new piece of **** inventory system shove it up your arse and give us back what worked for most of the last decade
PreciousAngel
Junior Businessmen
Silent Company
#677 - 2012-05-24 21:27:58 UTC
Give us back the old inventory system.
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#678 - 2012-05-24 21:31:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodes Reynolds
PreciousAngel wrote:
Give us back the old inventory system.



that's what 90% of us have been saying for 34 pages,,
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#679 - 2012-05-24 21:42:26 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Yonis Kador wrote:
So after a good night's sleep, plenty of sunshine, lots of ice cream, and a toss, I logged in today (post-patch) to see how much less of a pain the new UI was going to be. And predictably, it still sucks. (Sorry CCP.) You can tweak this thing until the cows come home and you will not solve the problem.

Big Unified Wall Of Text.



TLDR: Today I tried and see the results of you CCP polishing a turd but I still got my hands all brown and smelly.



Well Vaerah, it has been tried before...

Really!

Lol
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#680 - 2012-05-24 21:44:20 UTC
Quote:
This kind of devoted relationship between people and video games is something that a lot of developers would kill for. But other developers would also probably mess it up – even CCP very nearly messed it up by trying to monetise their fans too quickly. The way it’s managed to create this unique community is by having a reciprocal player-developer relationship long before the likes of BioWare and even Blizzard opened up a dialogue with their fans. This dialogue has let them know what to change and improve about their virtual universe, but importantly, it’s also let them know what not to change.

Eve was built around people rather than developer-created content out of necessity as much as anything else. When CCP was founded, they couldn’t have got the manpower together to make a content-heavy MMO stuffed with mission and quests even if they’d hired every single talented game-designer in Iceland. Instead of creating stories for players, they constructed a game infrastructure where the players could become the stories.


Taken from this link:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/05/24/internet-spaceships-are-serious-business


Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!