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Warfare & Tactics

 
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More FW changes on SiSi

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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#481 - 2012-05-08 19:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Andrea Griffin wrote:

I still stand by my previous statements about it though: If a station will deny access to a law abiding enemy of the state, why on earth would any station allow a criminal to dock? From a stance of consistency it just doesn't make any sense at all. It also doesn't make sense that an NPC corporation not involved in the war would deny docking access.


Because these aren't design decisions made from a role play or "just makes sense" standpoint. They are there to directly encourage consequence and add meaning to victory conditions, as well as to encourage more FW pilots to spend time in space fighting and less time sitting in stations spinning ships and asking where the fleet is.

Thank you though, for keeping a positive attitude and for being willing to try something before judging it. Players like you should have a lot of fun in the days ahead, I wish everyone else felt the same.


This argument on consequence is very flawed when there is less consequence to simply leave FW. If my Militia happens to be doing good because it's that time of the year when we have upper hand then there is no consequence.. If it happens to be the flip side when the Militia I'm in is less active then we get consequence..

However if the Militia can't come back from it, then it's easy enough to leave FW.. Docking problem solved and now more targets.

Any game mechanic that makes it harder to operate under that mechanic but easier to leave is a flawed game mechanic. Why should I place my corp at a disadvantage to pirates that can dock in the stations I can't?

With the increased cost of LP''s even the ISK is not so certain anymore.. I mean really? For doing my duty for the state I get to pay 1 million LP to buy a Navy Raven, while guys running lvl V's for the State War or any other Caldari NPC corp can get them for 600k lp?

Honestly the ISK income from FW isn't that great anymore with all the farmers.. In the past it was a decent reason to stay in Militia but today it's not. Not when you figure the price it costs to buy the base T1 hull these days, has doubled from a month or two ago causing the LP's to be even more worthless. (honestly I don't even cash in LP's anymore..)

Now with LP's for plexing people will just stick noob alts in t1 frigs to go farm LPs instead of farming them with stealth bombers. Meaning even though the prices should go up on the Faction ships it now require 4x the grind to get them and there will likely be even more farmers competing for them.

Think about it.. so If I'm out plexing to decontest a system but get run off by enemy gang that out numbers me.. Have I really lost ? Nope.. I can just run a noob alt into that plex that belongs to the other side and collect the LP's so now I'm getting paid to lose.

Best part is if they kill my alt then they lose both sec status & standings with their own Militia. Really? Has CCP even thought this stuff through even just a little bit?
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#482 - 2012-05-08 19:29:50 UTC
chatgris wrote:
CCP is giving us the disadvantages of nullsec (station lockouts) without any of the advantages: no denying safe harbour to our threats (the biggest threat to the gallente militia are neutrals/pirates who can still dock everywhere with ease, NOT the caldari miltiia), and no defence against random supercap blobs (cynojammers).

Not to mention plexing mechanics that, apart from defending a few key agent systems, has NO reward for defending a plex. We're back at "if I chase an opponent out of a plex my reward is to sit there bored for up to double the normal timer length with no reward".

^ THIS. THIS. A Thousand times this!!!!

How did you Veterans start?
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#483 - 2012-05-08 19:50:47 UTC
Im more optimistic I guess.

IMO

1) Currently we dont deploy from multiple stations. You have a couple systems where a corp lives and thats it. With docking rights close it means 3 things A) More corps will consolidate a system and B) You cant dock during a roam for repairs. C0 you cant dock up to avoid an in system blob, you're forced to warp from ss to ss

Those are the only issues that actively effect current play style. The rest is "we can do this now but we dont and noe we wont be able to do it and I still wont do it" argument.

I understand and it is a valid argument if you are currently using the mechanics in that way but the reality is we do not use the mechanics like that. Even pirates dont operate like that, sure they roam but the base out of a single area (kinaka, OMS,etc)

Its not like we leave a fleet of ships in random stations and pod there. We deploy from a given location (usually our home) and make the roam down and back. That is why I dont see this as a game breaking mechanic. A coprmate said "Ill quit if this happens" really? REALLY? You dont use the mechanic now, and since I am taking something away you dont use you're going to quit?


2) I think the new changes will reduce the farmers thus increaseing the value of LP. I don't want to speculate on the cost of lp rewards per lp yet as I havent seen the cost but its all relative, if a RNI cost 600k lp and if lp isnt as readily available the isk value will skyrocket. If the LP access has increased as well (from which my understanding it has) then its even steven.

Currently LP comes from missions

With patch LP comes from missions, plexing and killing. Of course the LP cost needs to go up.


3)Pirates accessing stations, yea so what. Again they dont stash ships all over the place they base out of a single location and then roam.

4) Cyno jammers, I agree this needs to happen.

I just dont see the changes as a "break" its more of a "sky is falling" menatlity and over reaction. The new changes only increase fighting and rewards to fight.

I for one cant wait to get isk for plexing. Besides even if defensive plexing doesnt yield lp rewards the kills will AND it brings the fight which many fw people are there for. Several of you already said fw lp isnt the primary thing anymore its the fights.

So what Im getting is a circular argument from you.

You say you dont care about the lp since isk farmers destroyed it but you care about gettign fights. Then you complain that defensive plexing doesnt yeild lp but it does yield fights?

myheadisspinning

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#484 - 2012-05-08 19:56:41 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
Im more optimistic I guess.

IMO

1) Currently we dont deploy from multiple stations. You have a couple systems where a corp lives and thats it. With docking rights close it means 3 things A) More corps will consolidate a system and B) You cant dock during a roam for repairs. C0 you cant dock up to avoid an in system blob, you're forced to warp from ss to ss

Those are the only issues that actively effect current play style. The rest is "we can do this now but we dont and noe we wont be able to do it and I still wont do it" argument.

I understand and it is a valid argument if you are currently using the mechanics in that way but the reality is we do not use the mechanics like that. Even pirates dont operate like that, sure they roam but the base out of a single area (kinaka, OMS,etc)

Its not like we leave a fleet of ships in random stations and pod there. We deploy from a given location (usually our home) and make the roam down and back. That is why I dont see this as a game breaking mechanic. A coprmate said "Ill quit if this happens" really? REALLY? You dont use the mechanic now, and since I am taking something away you dont use you're going to quit?


2) I think the new changes will reduce the farmers thus increaseing the value of LP. I don't want to speculate on the cost of lp rewards per lp yet as I havent seen the cost but its all relative, if a RNI cost 600k lp and if lp isnt as readily available the isk value will skyrocket. If the LP access has increased as well (from which my understanding it has) then its even steven.

Currently LP comes from missions

With patch LP comes from missions, plexing and killing. Of course the LP cost needs to go up.


3)Pirates accessing stations, yea so what. Again they dont stash ships all over the place they base out of a single location and then roam.

4) Cyno jammers, I agree this needs to happen.

I just dont see the changes as a "break" its more of a "sky is falling" menatlity and over reaction. The new changes only increase fighting and rewards to fight.

I for one cant wait to get isk for plexing. Besides even if defensive plexing doesnt yield lp rewards the kills will AND it brings the fight which many fw people are there for. Several of you already said fw lp isnt the primary thing anymore its the fights.

So what Im getting is a circular argument from you.

You say you dont care about the lp since isk farmers destroyed it but you care about gettign fights. Then you complain that defensive plexing doesnt yeild lp but it does yield fights?

myheadisspinning


You might not stash ships all over the place but many of us do.
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#485 - 2012-05-08 19:59:42 UTC
Mutnin wrote:


Ilots of stuff

You might not stash ships all over the place but many of us do.



I wouldnt say its for the purpose of deploying behind enemy line. I have ships stored at other locations but it is more coincidental.

Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#486 - 2012-05-08 20:02:40 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
Im more optimistic I guess.

IMO

1) Currently we dont deploy from multiple stations. You have a couple systems where a corp lives and thats it. With docking rights close it means 3 things A) More corps will consolidate a system and B) You cant dock during a roam for repairs. C0 you cant dock up to avoid an in system blob, you're forced to warp from ss to ss



or d), fw corps will move out of the fw warzone

BolsterBomb wrote:

3)Pirates accessing stations, yea so what. Again they dont stash ships all over the place they base out of a single location and then roam.


When they warp off they can dock, repair mods (even offlined ones) and armor, and get back in the fight. Being able to warp off in the middle of a fight and repair and get back within 60-90 seconds is a tactic I make great use of.

They can choose when to fight or when not to fight by simply docking, while we may not have that choice in FW space being in FW.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#487 - 2012-05-08 20:07:01 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
BolsterBomb wrote:

Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"


- Tech moon fight in Nisuwa a week ago
- Deploying against eve university in Dudreda (we get there via shuttle/interceptor and switch to our stash of ships)
- Plexing ships near Intaki (I have a frig and cruiser up there in case I swing by and find someone in a plex my drake can't get into)

And our base in Nenna started as "stash ships in the warzone so we can reship faster without going all the way back to Villore". Nenna was chosen because it was a central location to a wide area of the warzone.

Early on when the caldari used to try and dislodge us from our forward base in Nenna, we won many time because we were able to reship during the fight. Heck, I've even put ships in Tama and suj to do the same thing when the Caldari used to based in Nourv.

Now, this is a tactic that people not affiliated with FW can use to their hearts content, but is restricted to those in fction warfare.
Bengal Bob
Slymsloot Enterprises
#488 - 2012-05-08 20:14:49 UTC
What makes me sad is I can't see which of these changes are going to encourage todays noobs to join and become the heroes of tomorrow.

What is being done to help the newer players join and climb out of the general militia channel instead of just being farmed for kills?

Everyone wants to preserve their interests, but it would be nice for the newer players to be given something.
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#489 - 2012-05-08 20:21:22 UTC
chatgris wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:

Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"


- Tech moon fight in Nisuwa a week ago
- Deploying against eve university in Dudreda (we get there via shuttle/interceptor and switch to our stash of ships)
- Plexing ships near Intaki (I have a frig and cruiser up there in case I swing by and find someone in a plex my drake can't get into)

And our base in Nenna started as "stash ships in the warzone so we can reship faster without going all the way back to Villore". Nenna was chosen because it was a central location to a wide area of the warzone.

Early on when the caldari used to try and dislodge us from our forward base in Nenna, we won many time because we were able to reship during the fight. Heck, I've even put ships in Tama and suj to do the same thing when the Caldari used to based in Nourv.

Now, this is a tactic that people not affiliated with FW can use to their hearts content, but is restricted to those in fction warfare.



This isnt the rule though its the exception. I dont disagree with the tactic I am just saying its the exception to the rule, most fights you're not going to warp of repair and come back. I dont disagree it has happend, Ive been in battles where it has happend and I see it happening more so in plex fights BUT I just dont see it as an every day game breaker.

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#490 - 2012-05-08 20:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
BolsterBomb wrote:
Mutnin wrote:


Ilots of stuff

You might not stash ships all over the place but many of us do.



I wouldnt say its for the purpose of deploying behind enemy line. I have ships stored at other locations but it is more coincidental.

Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"


It's not about JCing it's about being able to reship if you happen to lose a ship or need to reship for a fight. Example we roam over into Gal back systems and out to null quite often, so I have ships stashed over in Intaki & few other key areas we typically pass through as well as ammo/drone/cap booster stashes being those are things you often need while out on a roam.

Hell I had plans to have guys stash ships down on the Amarr front as well, so we could go do roams down there when we wanted a change, but with these changes we would now have to leave them somewhere in high sec or some off beat low sec system.
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#491 - 2012-05-08 20:23:31 UTC
chatgris wrote:


BolsterBomb wrote:

3)Pirates accessing stations, yea so what. Again they dont stash ships all over the place they base out of a single location and then roam.


When they warp off they can dock, repair mods (even offlined ones) and armor, and get back in the fight. Being able to warp off in the middle of a fight and repair and get back within 60-90 seconds is a tactic I make great use of.

They can choose when to fight or when not to fight by simply docking, while we may not have that choice in FW space being in FW.





Most fights do not happen this away unless its a LARGE LARGE fight. Most of the time points are spread or they bail completely. I dont recall having my fleet mates just simply warp off dock and repair and then return to the fight that is still going a minute later. I know it can happen, and has happened its just not the norm.

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#492 - 2012-05-08 20:25:00 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
BolsterBomb wrote:
This isnt the rule though its the exception.

...

Ive been in battles where it has happend and I see it happening more so in plex fights BUT I just dont see it as an every day game breaker.



Not for me. Since I primarily fly nano, I can usually disengage, repair, then come back.

if it were a full on "only the militia that holds the system can do this" tactic then it would be a strong motivator to keep the system. Instead, I have a very strong incentive just to drop FW and be a "faction aligned pirate".

I'm still advocating against station lockouts, but if they're coming in, at least make them so that "drop FW and just go full pirate" isn't the obvious option.
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#493 - 2012-05-08 20:29:02 UTC
chatgris wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
This isnt the rule though its the exception.

...

Ive been in battles where it has happend and I see it happening more so in plex fights BUT I just dont see it as an every day game breaker.



Not for me. Since I primarily fly nano, I can usually disengage, repair, then come back.

if it were a full on "only the militia that holds the system can do this" tactic then it would be a strong motivator to keep the system. Instead, I have a very strong incentive just to drop FW and be a "faction aligned pirate".

I'm still advocating against station lockouts, but if they're coming in, at least make them so that "drop FW and just go full pirate" isn't the obvious option.



Maybe you should stick around and fight then instead of running away :p

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#494 - 2012-05-08 20:36:51 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
Maybe you should stick around and fight then instead of running away :p


It's a good thing there are emoticons embedded in your comment :P
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#495 - 2012-05-08 20:44:20 UTC
chatgris wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
Maybe you should stick around and fight then instead of running away :p


It's a good thing there are emoticons embedded in your comment :P



Sure....side step the conversation

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#496 - 2012-05-08 20:53:52 UTC
chatgris wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:

Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"


- Tech moon fight in Nisuwa a week ago
- Deploying against eve university in Dudreda (we get there via shuttle/interceptor and switch to our stash of ships)
- Plexing ships near Intaki (I have a frig and cruiser up there in case I swing by and find someone in a plex my drake can't get into)

And our base in Nenna started as "stash ships in the warzone so we can reship faster without going all the way back to Villore". Nenna was chosen because it was a central location to a wide area of the warzone.

Early on when the caldari used to try and dislodge us from our forward base in Nenna, we won many time because we were able to reship during the fight. Heck, I've even put ships in Tama and suj to do the same thing when the Caldari used to based in Nourv.

Now, this is a tactic that people not affiliated with FW can use to their hearts content, but is restricted to those in fction warfare.



My corp was considering several bases throughout the faction war region so we could reship and move out quickly.

Plus what corps did when plexing was completely meaningless does not mean that they wouldn't change tactics if plexing became more fun and meaningfull. Most faction war pilots used to not care about plexing at all because it was broken on a variety of levels.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Maz3r Rakum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#497 - 2012-05-08 21:01:04 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
chatgris wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
Maybe you should stick around and fight then instead of running away :p


It's a good thing there are emoticons embedded in your comment :P



Sure....side step the conversation


He has 2x Internal Nanofiber II's he is very slippery in conversations.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#498 - 2012-05-08 21:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
BolsterBomb wrote:
chatgris wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:

Recall the last 3 times you have told your corp "go stash a ship in X system, we are going to JC over or pod over and surprise those flipping ****** evil spiting frogs"


- Tech moon fight in Nisuwa a week ago
- Deploying against eve university in Dudreda (we get there via shuttle/interceptor and switch to our stash of ships)
- Plexing ships near Intaki (I have a frig and cruiser up there in case I swing by and find someone in a plex my drake can't get into)

And our base in Nenna started as "stash ships in the warzone so we can reship faster without going all the way back to Villore". Nenna was chosen because it was a central location to a wide area of the warzone.

Early on when the caldari used to try and dislodge us from our forward base in Nenna, we won many time because we were able to reship during the fight. Heck, I've even put ships in Tama and suj to do the same thing when the Caldari used to based in Nourv.

Now, this is a tactic that people not affiliated with FW can use to their hearts content, but is restricted to those in fction warfare.



This isnt the rule though its the exception. I dont disagree with the tactic I am just saying its the exception to the rule, most fights you're not going to warp of repair and come back. I dont disagree it has happend, Ive been in battles where it has happend and I see it happening more so in plex fights BUT I just dont see it as an every day game breaker.




It isnt the exception. I am relatively poor, yet without logging in, I can think of 6 systems in Black Rise where I have at least 3 ships in a station. Maybe more. And docking up and repairing mid fight then coming back happens all of the time.

It is dumb to lock out FW people but allow neutrals to dock. It makes no sense, and removes all real penalty. It just requires some time on your alt. It is an illusory "penalty" that just encourages neutral alts and it should not be allowed. IMHO.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Veli ANDAC
Archangels Inferno
#499 - 2012-05-08 21:46:11 UTC
CCP says,

"The more upgraded a system's faction control, the better its respective LP store prices are and the more LP bonuses are received."

I checked LP store of FDU station at Fliet solar system which is upgraded level 5,

1) It seems a Dominix Navy Issue is still needs 600k LP. I can't see any system level upgrade benefit here for LP store?

2) What does CCP mean "LP bonuses" ? It needs more information about that.

3) Level 4 agents should be give more LP reward for missions at upgraded systems. This is important for who have no alt in game and make some isk for beginner players.
Juoi Milar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#500 - 2012-05-08 23:49:00 UTC
Just wanted to say that it all sounds good to me, sure there are some potential negative possibilities, especially for people that are more willing to to give up than try and play the game and fight. But for as many that leave because they are not willing to show their metal, I'm sure this new system will attract many new players to make up the numbers. I for one am looking forward to seeing where FW goes from here.

Hans > Do you know when/if the pirate faction idea will be implemented? I was wondering whether CCP may think about penalties for militia pilots that behave like pirates. I know lots of players will hate this idea, but in my mind the militia is supposed to protect the people of its racial society (providing they do not have negative sec of course) and in doing so (with the new system bonuses that LP and winning systems brings) help to encourage low sec industry for your faction giving you access to cheaper ships and mods.

I was wondering if CCP had thought about both sec & standing hits for pilots that blow up a pilot not only from their own militia, but of their own race.