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Incursion changes

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Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#61 - 2012-05-05 02:05:08 UTC
StuRyan wrote:
Here we go again, null sec players whinging about high sec. Can i remind you elitist ignorant narrow minded cowards - that in the event of people randomly working together to achieve a common goal, they should be rewarded... It is human nature to try and do things quicker and more efficiently so why do we constantly track backwards in eve when people do this?

VG sites were capable of being "Blitzed" becuase of a number of reason:
1. People invested in their equipment to make the job quicker
2. People worked together in their hundreds - whole communities were created to make isk and whole communities were created when supposidly the economy was breaking with all that extra isk pffffft. and finally
3. It was the only source of PvE that people could get into quickly make a few sites and experience other parts of the game.

How is that any different to real life.... we use a process to get something done and we are constantly looking to tune the process...

For the love of god will you move away from this Bullsh1t model of Risk versus Reward.... This model is so far of the truth in eve in so many ways i get embarrassed everytime i read a "but its RvR, we deserve more"..... STFU... Ability to work together versus Reward is one you should be concentrating on. and while you are at it... Have you ever considered looking at the demographics of average players per Prime time, Average corp size, average time in game per evening,??? It may show you that a lot of people who play the game for hours upon hours in null sec move to high sec to create isk -> call me obvious but that is a damn issue with null sec.... null sec is broken becuase vast regions are unpopulated and useless.... it is human pschology that when people make a choice in how they are going to play the game the "availability" of product / service is a high characterist when making the choice.

AND FINALLY - the issue isn't or wasn't in pay out per hour.... it was the ability for people to jump in sites and "blitz" them.... Blitzer fleets carried two notable signatures: Legion Fleet or Mach Fleet...... I dunno, is it really that obvious that perhaps these ship types shouldnt be allowed in VG sites...

All i would want is for people to get over this perception that High sec is safe.... it doesnt matter where you are in the game null sec low sec high sec wh space there are mechanics in all of these scenarios that makes jumping into a ship in high sec just as risky as jumping into a ship in null sec or low sec.... There is no diference.

Wha would i do?

Simply make VGs a site that is a stepping stone towards the more difficult ones and not allow the tier 2 BS in the sites... Conventional BS gangs cleared the sites in 10minutes+, I would even consider bringing the dificulty of assualts down making the numbers in assualt fleet such that its a VG fleet with 3 or 4 extra pilots. not like it is at the moment where it is 10. Have you ever tried recruiting 20 people? It takes forever again - another reason why assualts are not seen to be "ideal" for the time i have before the kids get back......

People like things to be quick not to be sat waiting for ever.... i like the idea of having assualts with 12 people (same as vgs) but those 12 have to without a shadow of doubt work together.... any split dps or incorrectly setup ship slows or even destroys the fleet. whilst VGs have the same risk - just not to the same degree.


HS is safe, if you're not safe, you're doing it wrong
Nambr1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2012-05-05 02:57:38 UTC
NCO - remove augas
NMC - remove half augas and romis or something like that
OTAS - leave it but increase payment to 14.4 mil (lps too)

ASSAULTS - reduce difficulty of waves

Boost low sec incursions, that will rise ppl activity in low sec.
Dont boost 0.0 incursions, they have high end belts, missions, plexes, anomalies, moons ..... In fact, anomalies need big nerf (will stop bots and move them to belts where regular players will repot them more) and moons need big nerf.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-05-05 04:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
Greetings CCP Soundwave o/) This is my Serious Post

I have been FCing the new Vanguards and Assualts since the patch came out with varying success. Incursions have always been the water hole of eve. I would frequently run with people who openly admitted to being incursion alts of Goons but didn't grief our fleets. It makes me sad to see what the Vanguard Community has been reduced to...

I wanted to get a feel for how different kinds of fleet compositions flew through the new sites so my first couple of fleets I ran with anyone I could grab. After those fleets I started increasing my standards to what they were pre-patch. Forming a fleet takes a lot longer now due to the majority of the Vanguard community leaving.

This patch wasn't just a double nerf, it was an unforeseeable triple nerf to the entire community. The inital shock of increased difficulty caused many pilots to lose their ships and spread unrest. This unrest scared other pilots into leaving. Less pilots means its harder for FCs to form fleets. Less fleets running means more bored pilots that leave. This cycle is rapidly killing the VG community despite my best efforts in the past few days to *shudders* be nice to newer players and try to get them battle ready as soon as possible.

I have no idea where all of these VG pilots went, but many of them moved on to running in HQ fleets. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for the HQ community, but the Vanguard and HQ communities were more closely bound then people thought. Without a strong VG community to efficiently reduce system control, the HQ community struggles with each new incursion to reduce penalties and allow the harder sites to be run with more efficient fleet compositions.

What I learned from my Fleets:
I lump my three fleets into three catagories: Pick-up (T1 battleships, tengus, Logi 4, newer pilots, not quite as bad as E-Uni kitchen sink fleets), Shiny Pub (mostly pirate battleships fit decently from public channels), and Top Tier (tight nit group with perfect fits and fleet composition)

Vanguards

NCOs (5-15 Minutes):
All 3 Compositions: A purely fleet composition site, no danger or fun mechanics, just a point and click fish in a barrel atmosphere. As long as you have enough logi this site poses no danger to you at all. Fleets that don't have enough Blaster/Web boats will take longer but against, the site DIFFICULTY doesn't increase. Adding more ships increases the time it takes to complete the site but otherwise it has remain unchanged.

NMCs (5-15 Minutes):
All 3 Compositions: Extremely similar to the NCO albiet slight more cruiser targets. Still as boring as it was before, it just requires more time as there are more ships on the field. Incoming DPS is pitiful. Most incursion pilots have an Orca full of ore and someone to run the ore isn't hard to find. No danger in this site at all, very boring even in kitchen-sink fleets.

OTAs (10-Infinite Minutes): The slowest and hardest site (a mini-assault site), to even complete it you need a hacker or VERY high Alpha ships (1400mm Machs). With one 1400mm Mach and a full fleet of Nightmares and Machariels with only 2 logi, we still didn't have what it took to Alpha the Mara (clearly this shortcut is only doable by the Top Tier fleets). OTAs are the main reason people are leaving incursions, and as they leave it gets harder to find and make fleets, which causes more people to leave. Despite all this, you guys did make OTAs more FUN, they just don't pay nearly enough to make that fun worth it.

Pick-up Fleets: This site cannot be accomplished without hacking in a Pick up Fleet. Although I like the mechanic it is extremely noob unfriendly as the hacking array is 100kms away from fleet warp in (out of rep range). If the hacking array was moved closer to the fleet, Logistics or other ships IN FLEET could fit a Hacker in the same way they fit an Afterburner or MWD to run ore in NMCs. The spawn mechanics are also quite complicated and tagging targets as an FC is extremely annoying, the new tagging system you implement soon should help with that though.

Shiny Pub: At 0% Control and with a T2 Mindlink Siege Booster we were able to use 2 experienced Logi instead of 3. This however did not seem to improve our site times as much as I hoped. We managed to average about 60mil/hr (which oddly enough is what a shiny assault fleet makes. We were completing the site in 10 minutes as I was using an alt to hack, we tried 3 times to Alpha/Chase down the Mara and it never succeeded leading me to believe that the DPS/Alpha you need to kill the Mara is way too high, isn't hacking is supposed to be a crutch for newer players?

Top Tier: With 2 or more 1400mmMachariels/ Alpha ships it is possible to not have to hack the site. Rumors of OTAs taking as little as 6 minutes without a hacker circulate. This may happen, but very rarely. The original problem with incursions was that everyone was bragging about what the top 1% of incursion runners ACTUALLY made so they all got nerfed. (I posed in a Maelstrom for several pick-up fleets and most were making as low as 30mil/hr before).

60mil/hr Is what VGs and Assaults can practically make in a well fit, well skilled fleet. This isn't an attractive enough concept considering one bad FC can mean the loss of your ship. I don't think reverting the 10% upping it to 66mil/hr is going to help presuade people to try/comeback to incursions when newer pilots have literally been completely shut out of Vanguards. If your goal was to make vanguards easier noob friendly pay less sites, you failed and caused vanguards to completely exclude all but the most perfect ships.

tl;dr Incursions arn't worth the time an investment it takes to reach max isk/hr potential and the collapse of the VG community is hurting HQs.

♞
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#64 - 2012-05-05 05:43:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Asmodes Reynolds
StuRyan there's only one thing in your massive post that I agree with high-sec incursions should be more profitable than a level 4 missions. however Losec and null sec incursions should be worth at least twice as much due to the extra risk ( both when running the sites and the logistics of moving the equipment needed safe pos, etc). Also the Risk versus Reward mechanic is one of the core mechanics, and one of the biggest driving forces to move people out of high sec. Don't like it find a new game
Michi Noda
Freeground Cooperative
#65 - 2012-05-05 06:09:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Michi Noda
The whole problem with high sec vanguard were the OTA's, that site is what made possible to make 150m+ isk/hr as it was the only one that could have been blitzed.

In the NCO's you had to kill all the ships in the site to get the payout, these sites were commonly done by Legion fleets and shiny fleets with a web Vindicator as a drone bunny. Although if a Legion fleet was running NCO's in the same system you were running your shiny fleet, you'd leave those sites for the Legions as the constant removal of these sites would make more OTA's and NMC's spawn.

NMC's were almost the same, you had to kill all the waves except for the mara and 3 other frigates and you had to mine/run the ore.

OTA's were the reason we were making the big bucks. Warp in, Kill 3 BS's and warp out to the next OTA. Took only 3 minutes to complete the site that was supposed to be the hardest one to complete, making 4 minutes between payouts (sometimes less with a good fc and fleet).

You could've fixed that by making 1 change to the site, to kill all the waves like in NCO's and NMC's.

Now people just leave the OTA's alone and no one runs them because they're not worth it, and if you try to run them most ppl get bored and leave the fleet and then you have to find replacements wich take longer now because half the Incursions community are gone and most of the people left in the channels don't have the skills or proper fitting to join the fleet.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2012-05-05 08:04:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
ALSO GUYS DON'T SAY THAT INCURSIONS SHOULD BE MORE PROFITABLE THEN L4 MISSIONS OR THEY WILL JUST NERF L4S INTO THE GROUND.

♞
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2012-05-05 08:12:44 UTC
I'm being a bit mouthy and comical Mr. Soundwave, but there is a shred of truth to this:

OTA
Problem: Boring, Battleship Blitzing was too Easy
Possible Solution: Make blitzing harder to increase site fun without ruining the blitzer culture.
CCP Solution: Moar Ships, Less Payout, Tagging Nightmare for FC

NMC
Problem: Boring
Possible Solution: Increase site difficultly with creative mechanics.
CCP Solution: Moar Ships, Less Payout

NCO
Problem: Boring, Blitzing with Legions was too Easy
Possible Solutoin: Make blitzing harder to increase site fun without ruining the blitzer culture.
CCP Solution: Moar Ships, Less Payout

♞
Inflatable Girlfriend
Solar Trade and Industry
#68 - 2012-05-05 09:11:29 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
HS is safe, if you're not safe, you're doing it wrong



if high sec is safe your not undocking....
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2012-05-05 09:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Keith Planck
Inflatable Girlfriend wrote:
Apolyon I wrote:
HS is safe, if you're not safe, you're doing it wrong



if high sec is safe your not undocking....


If your safe while docked you must not be in Jita Local Chat~~~~


Also notice all the How do I do L4 mission Thread Popping up >.>

♞
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#70 - 2012-05-05 10:12:28 UTC
Add more lp like 50-100% to incursions and hit them down a peg with more isk nerf, lp good isk bad
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2012-05-05 10:46:05 UTC
Lilan Kahn wrote:
Add more lp like 50-100% to incursions and hit them down a peg with more isk nerf, lp good isk bad


Why not just remove incursion all together? Then level 4 missions can only give LP, dropped mods can be refined into LP. What if we removed every single way to get ISK except moon mining and PLEX and replaced it with LP, ITS GENIUS!!!

♞
EI7FPB 3
EI7FPB Ltd
#72 - 2012-05-05 11:41:22 UTC
HI,
My Incursions income has gone down by around 50%, Sites take longer + less pay.

What is the acceptable income level for a Incursion runner ?

When I look back over the lest 5 months, My income was ( ABOUT ) 1/2 a bil pre day, 2Bil a week easy, Where is it all gone ?

I'm a FC, I need my ships at peak performance, My Ship + OGB, I supply Ore, Drones, and some time parts for the fleet.
YES, I did earn billions pre week, But I spent billions pre week on the fleet. after 5 months my ships are where I need them to be ( SHINY ships, Faction, Officer, and deepspace MODS ), Now is the time for me to sit back and earn some ISK.
I have invested billions in my Incursions career, I wound like to see a NICE return.

Blitzing is over, Good, I was falling asleep, with the new spawn list and Kill order, you need to be awake, The FLEET needs to be awake, it is sorting the MEN form the BOYS.
No more EASY ISK, the guys need to invest in their ship, Time, ISK and Skill, personal skills are in play, NO more PRESSING F1 and wait for the next Deltole Tegmentum to spawn.

Changes I would like to see
Reversing the 10% income change.
Remove the Mara Paleo for the spawn kILL list.

Yes, we will go back to earning some NICE ISK, Yes we will have to work for it.

Incursion should NOT be, join a fleet for a few days, earn 2 -3 billions, then go back to PVPing or what ever.
It should be a career.
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#73 - 2012-05-05 11:46:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vizvig
Just add survival timer to vanguards about 5-7min. (site cannot be finished before it reached 0) And survival timers to AS/HQ too.

And make waves spawns every 2min.

BTW Different routes site is terrible.
Kapitain Zino
Doomheim
#74 - 2012-05-05 11:53:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Kapitain Zino
Caellach Marellus wrote:

In my opinion teamwork should always be better rewarded than solo play, it's an MMO. I don't want to discourage solo play, but the best rewards should be through working with others towards a common goal.


Signed!

If one makes more ISK/hour in lvl4's, there is no point in doing Vanguard sites. To get the right fleet together (and keep it together too) takes time and efforts. Thats why it must be honored by better payment. I was pritty active in incurisons, but didn't fly a single site after the nerf. TheVanguard's were not only nerfed, they got their Double Tap. To reestablish them as a "first experience" site for pilots who didn't participate in incurisons is a very important point. You need an attractive payment to get pilots soloing lvl4's together, willing to listen to unknown FC and risking their "shinies".
StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#75 - 2012-05-05 12:24:33 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
StuRyan wrote:
Here we go again, null sec players whinging about high sec. Can i remind you elitist ignorant narrow minded cowards - that in the event of people randomly working together to achieve a common goal, they should be rewarded... It is human nature to try and do things quicker and more efficiently so why do we constantly track backwards in eve when people do this?

VG sites were capable of being "Blitzed" becuase of a number of reason:
1. People invested in their equipment to make the job quicker
2. People worked together in their hundreds - whole communities were created to make isk and whole communities were created when supposidly the economy was breaking with all that extra isk pffffft. and finally
3. It was the only source of PvE that people could get into quickly make a few sites and experience other parts of the game.

How is that any different to real life.... we use a process to get something done and we are constantly looking to tune the process...

For the love of god will you move away from this Bullsh1t model of Risk versus Reward.... This model is so far of the truth in eve in so many ways i get embarrassed everytime i read a "but its RvR, we deserve more"..... STFU... Ability to work together versus Reward is one you should be concentrating on. and while you are at it... Have you ever considered looking at the demographics of average players per Prime time, Average corp size, average time in game per evening,??? It may show you that a lot of people who play the game for hours upon hours in null sec move to high sec to create isk -> call me obvious but that is a damn issue with null sec.... null sec is broken becuase vast regions are unpopulated and useless.... it is human pschology that when people make a choice in how they are going to play the game the "availability" of product / service is a high characterist when making the choice.

AND FINALLY - the issue isn't or wasn't in pay out per hour.... it was the ability for people to jump in sites and "blitz" them.... Blitzer fleets carried two notable signatures: Legion Fleet or Mach Fleet...... I dunno, is it really that obvious that perhaps these ship types shouldnt be allowed in VG sites...

All i would want is for people to get over this perception that High sec is safe.... it doesnt matter where you are in the game null sec low sec high sec wh space there are mechanics in all of these scenarios that makes jumping into a ship in high sec just as risky as jumping into a ship in null sec or low sec.... There is no diference.

Wha would i do?

Simply make VGs a site that is a stepping stone towards the more difficult ones and not allow the tier 2 BS in the sites... Conventional BS gangs cleared the sites in 10minutes+, I would even consider bringing the dificulty of assualts down making the numbers in assualt fleet such that its a VG fleet with 3 or 4 extra pilots. not like it is at the moment where it is 10. Have you ever tried recruiting 20 people? It takes forever again - another reason why assualts are not seen to be "ideal" for the time i have before the kids get back......

People like things to be quick not to be sat waiting for ever.... i like the idea of having assualts with 12 people (same as vgs) but those 12 have to without a shadow of doubt work together.... any split dps or incorrectly setup ship slows or even destroys the fleet. whilst VGs have the same risk - just not to the same degree.


HS is safe, if you're not safe, you're doing it wrong


So is every other part of the game if you do it correctly.
Trader 99
The Black Hornets
#76 - 2012-05-05 13:38:18 UTC
My two cents.

I know people that use to goto low sec to do the mom,but now with the infleunce bar taking alot more effort to get down to zero to get the mom to spawn its a non starter now for them to even do it.Is this what you wanted?

With HQ sites the most annoying one is the TPPH.It would be nice if the gates in the rooms were alot closer so we didnt have to refit the fleet with afterburners and wait 5 minutes for people to do it.People have said that if it only had 2 rooms instead of 3 it would be better.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#77 - 2012-05-05 14:37:21 UTC
Now this thread has reached 3 pages, its full of feedback (almost the same exact things that were on the other thread) and it's easy to spot what's bothering most people and why.

May it be that this thread will simply be ignored because it's full of "useless" posts? (meaning "i cant be bothered to read 4 pages of WOTs, i'll just add 2 spawns of frigs , up the payout 5% and call it a day.")

I just want to refresh to everybody who may have forgotten who we're dealing with here(soundwave that is):

Quote:
I would like virtual goods sales in EVE. In fact, I'd like to sell a lot more than vanity items,Does this mean I'm an evil capitalist that, unless stopped, will cause the entire company to catch fire and be buried at sea by a secret team of Navy SEALs?

Well it sure seemed that way last summer did it not?
Those changes where wrecking eve, in fact i stopped playing at that time.

And then there's the really funny stuff:
Quote:
There is a pretty overwhelming perception amongst EVE players that these changes are bad(talking about 60 dollars monocles)

And then the even more juicy stuff:
Quote:
I think they're brilliant, but our players don't.


So last time CCP soundwave showed he really didnt give a flying **** about feedback or what the players said.

Granted we're not talking about eve in general but just incursions here the thing that matters is the attitude CCP(soundwave) will show.

So is this post useless?
Is this thread useless?

It depends on you CCP soundwave, you want to see eve flourish? Listen to customers before they start leaving in droves.
Or maybe you want to try to fight an uphill battle?
You want to show every player that only you know how to do things right?

This is not a personal attack, i just remeber who i'm dealing with, the lack of respect i felt a year ago.
xVx dreadnaught
modro
Northern Coalition.
#78 - 2012-05-05 14:39:31 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:


Yeah I'm not too worried about difficulty. Right now my main concerns are the length of assault sites and the payouts.

I just spoke to Affinity. While the trigger on a single NPC was a fairly awful mechanic, I'm not sure the current solution is as great long term as adding some sort of other objectives.


My main issue is that incursions tend to go against the grain compared to every other aspect of eve when it comes to the pay outs for the different classification of sites.

Yes Assaults pay out higher than Vanguards per site... But when you can complete double the number of Vanguard sites in the same time as one Assault there is no grading up.

If I could make as much ISK per hour grinding lvl 2 missions as I could lvl 4, then I would never do lvl 4's. The reason for lvl 4's paying out more is because they are more difficult.

The reason DED sites pay more at 10/10 is the same.

So why is it that a well run fleet running Headquarter sites will make 46 mill per hour each, when the Vanguard fleets will make double that.

There is very little incentive for people to form the bigger fleets other than "I'm bored" The income for hitting the bigger more dangerous sites should scale up. Like missions, belt rats, mining, DED sites, Sleepers, exploration and so on.
xVx dreadnaught
modro
Northern Coalition.
#79 - 2012-05-05 14:47:22 UTC
Alice Krysta wrote:

a future combined factions incursions (maybe a new patch), angels coming to help sansha, or fighting along with guristas to destroy the sansha fleet ... might also be fun for incursions



I like this idea, a storyline I thought would work would be that Sansha can see that his forces are depleting and that he's not gaining any ground against Concord... So he sells the tech to the other pirate factions. Then armed with the new WH tech Guristas, Serpentis, Blood and Angel start to attack also.

Each race bringing to the field more specialized fleets, with their own unique EWAR being present more often... More neuts from the blood, more ECM from Guristas and so on.

I think this kinda change would mean more planning of the players fleets for how to tackle each type of site.
bootshakki
Lithium Financial and Exploration
#80 - 2012-05-05 15:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: bootshakki
Michi Noda wrote:
The whole problem with high sec vanguard were the OTA's, that site is what made possible to make 150m+ isk/hr as it was the only one that could have been blitzed.

In the NCO's you had to kill all the ships in the site to get the payout, these sites were commonly done by Legion fleets and shiny fleets with a web Vindicator as a drone bunny. Although if a Legion fleet was running NCO's in the same system you were running your shiny fleet, you'd leave those sites for the Legions as the constant removal of these sites would make more OTA's and NMC's spawn.

NMC's were almost the same, you had to kill all the waves except for the mara and 3 other frigates and you had to mine/run the ore.

OTA's were the reason we were making the big bucks. Warp in, Kill 3 BS's and warp out to the next OTA. Took only 3 minutes to complete the site that was supposed to be the hardest one to complete, making 4 minutes between payouts (sometimes less with a good fc and fleet).

You could've fixed that by making 1 change to the site, to kill all the waves like in NCO's and NMC's.

Now people just leave the OTA's alone and no one runs them because they're not worth it, and if you try to run them most ppl get bored and leave the fleet and then you have to find replacements wich take longer now because half the Incursions community are gone and most of the people left in the channels don't have the skills or proper fitting to join the fleet.




This is true.... I not been doing incursions that long but started with the OTA's.. I did make a bit of Isk and enjoyed the small fast moving pace... This help me work as a team player and was easy to ask questions whilst giving me Isk to fund ships.... The problem with 20+ person fleets and HQ site is that you are just another gun that shoots at a target... there is very little space to move up the ladder and to start being a FC yourself....

1 thing I have noticed is that OTA are really boring now... getting a fleet together is hard and keeping the fleet running is even harder... Haveing a fast pace keeps ppl alert and intrested... Sitting around trying to find people is boring for fleet members...

2nd.. I agree with the concerpt of makin a site a more complex with goals like the Hacking in the OTA's... again this helps teamwork...