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New dev blog: Spaceship Murder Notifications

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Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#241 - 2012-05-01 03:45:51 UTC
Feature request:

Obviously, the system logs the most recent hostile effect applied by a given pilot. But currently, it seems to log whatever ship the pilot is in when the KM is generated. Would it be possible to also log the ship type that was associated with this damage, to avoid the situation where we get pilots in capsules killing things with their 1400mm artillery?

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?
Real Poison
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2012-05-02 17:43:38 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Real Poison wrote:
When are you going to do the next logical step and create an official and unfakeable killboard to integrate with evegate? With all the bells and whistles. Alliance startpages, corporation startpages, personal startpages. Social functions like (eg. a MOCK-Button) to post this failmail on the forums...?
Let me start by saying that I'm absolutely not going to make any promises here whatsoever with regards to feature set, functionality or timeline, but having said that then the team behind the upcoming new EVE API (CREST) has booked a meeting with Team Super Friends next week to start exploring potential options for a possible pilot project, which would involve exposing information on Kill Reports through CREST. If you want to know more about CREST then read https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1001699#post1001699


Heh, why didn't i get notified about this reply. Sounds interesting.
Could you please give an example where a PUT would be used in cREST?

Itches me to finally get into developing something EVE related. Since last year i'm excessively using REST on a Rails3 BackEnd with Client Side RESTful Model/Store implementations in ExtJS4. Started to love that ****. Big smile
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#243 - 2012-05-04 11:10:16 UTC
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.
Aidamina Omen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#244 - 2012-05-04 11:30:24 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.



Could you please elaborate on the part where you argue people having access to kill reports is a security concern. Your post reads as if you guys want to limit all information to kills, so that your new global killboards gets a monopoly on kill history. Is this the case, and if so will kill feeds as they are now provided through the api be restricted as well?
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#245 - 2012-05-04 11:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Soundwave
Aidamina Omen wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.



Could you please elaborate on the part where you argue people having access to kill reports is a security concern. Your post reads as if you guys want to limit all information to kills, so that your new global killboards gets a monopoly on kill history. Is this the case, and if so will kill feeds as they are now provided through the api be restricted as well?


No, I can't elaborate other than concerns were raised with the current implementation. We're holding off on this feature until a point where we feel comfortable with it in its entirety.
Avila Cracko
#246 - 2012-05-04 11:38:33 UTC
Aidamina Omen wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.



Could you please elaborate on the part where you argue people having access to kill reports is a security concern. Your post reads as if you guys want to limit all information to kills, so that your new global killboards gets a monopoly on kill history. Is this the case, and if so will kill feeds as they are now provided through the api be restricted as well?


I think they are worried about linking part and what ppl can do with that data, how they can get that data (too much of data), and how can they misuse it (client is not secure).

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2012-05-04 12:05:41 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.



this sucks
Severian Carnifex
#248 - 2012-05-04 12:10:11 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.



And... when we can expect Killboards??? Big smileBig smileBig smile
Alua Oresson
League of the Shieldy
SLYCE Pirates
#249 - 2012-05-04 12:45:41 UTC
Avila Cracko wrote:
Aidamina Omen wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.



Could you please elaborate on the part where you argue people having access to kill reports is a security concern. Your post reads as if you guys want to limit all information to kills, so that your new global killboards gets a monopoly on kill history. Is this the case, and if so will kill feeds as they are now provided through the api be restricted as well?


I think they are worried about linking part and what ppl can do with that data, how they can get that data (too much of data), and how can they misuse it (client is not secure).


Eve players using every scrap of information they can from players? I don't believe it!

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#250 - 2012-05-04 13:20:19 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.


I'd consider having to wait a valuable and worthwhile cost to getting a system that you guys are comfortable with releasing. Security holes are bad, they make Sreegs rage. >.>

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Wollari
Dirt Nap Squad
#251 - 2012-05-04 13:22:51 UTC
I bet it has to do with scraping. If you would be able to link a killmail, killmails must have unique IDs. Anybody could generate killmail links through Ingame Browser or any other way and with just guessing the IDs, you would have access to the killmails even if you've never seen or heard of them.

You can now go own with this knowledge, start scraping killmails by auto clicking your self generated links and get all the killmail data in your client cache. Extract the cache and transform/populate it externally. This must conflict with their global killboard project ... (a project which I haven't heard of yet)

The only possible way of linking a killmail would be not add a 2nd identifier or checksom to the internal killmail url. So even if you guess the KillmailID, you would have to guess the checksum/hash of the killmail. But I bet this would require some kind of redesign.

That's what I think is the reason. Soundwave: Right?

DOTLAN EveMaps | Your out-of-game map, navigation toolset, sov database, etc. since 2008
0Lona 0ltor
Adeptio Gloriae
#252 - 2012-05-04 13:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: 0Lona 0ltor
Let me guess the security concern is this and please stop me if I'm way off here. Currently with the new CCP Kill board this was going to happen.

A. Ship gets killed

B. API sent to killer

C. Killer posts mail

D. Mail is looked at and lol'd at by community.

E. Victim crys foul play puts in reimbursement request to GM's

F. GM reimburse players but now that board is CCP controled, kill is removed.

G. Killer gets angry asks why kill was reimbursed. Crys about victim being wrongfully reimbursed.

CCP can not be bothered with this so will let kill boards be run by 3rd party and continue to not disclose reimbursements while giving far to many out too try keep subs up.

Tinfoil hat post but maybe it's got something to do with it?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#253 - 2012-05-04 13:42:48 UTC
Wollari wrote:
I bet it has to do with scraping. If you would be able to link a killmail, killmails must have unique IDs. Anybody could generate killmail links through Ingame Browser or any other way and with just guessing the IDs, you would have access to the killmails even if you've never seen or heard of them.

You can now go own with this knowledge, start scraping killmails by auto clicking your self generated links and get all the killmail data in your client cache. Extract the cache and transform/populate it externally. This must conflict with their global killboard project ... (a project which I haven't heard of yet)

The only possible way of linking a killmail would be not add a 2nd identifier or checksom to the internal killmail url. So even if you guess the KillmailID, you would have to guess the checksum/hash of the killmail. But I bet this would require some kind of redesign.

That's what I think is the reason. Soundwave: Right?


The standard fix for that is "don't use guessable IDs". Instead of a 32bit ID that increments in a sequential fashion, you change over to a 128bit or 256bit identifier value that is randomly generated.
Rrama Ratamnim
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2012-05-04 14:56:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rrama Ratamnim
if the abov eis the problem with people guessing random killmails, why not just make the key the charname that died + 128bit random key... walla... guess that LOL

really sucks that linking was dropped like that...

begs the question

soundwave how far off are we on the killboards if your doing this and holding back ability to link mails, i mean are we talking next release? part of inferno? 10 years from now? i mean if its something thats coming really soon then fine not having the links right now is a moot point but if we're talking years from now till the killboards are ready, i hate to say it but making linkable kills now is worth it.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#255 - 2012-05-04 16:25:15 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.


Quick update: We're going to retain the functionality to share war info, as it's a pretty cool part of the feature. Non-war killmails will still not be part of the feature until we iron out some kinks.
Tazarak theDeceiver
United Mining and Hauling Inc
The Initiative.
#256 - 2012-05-04 16:45:14 UTC
Global killboards and leaders already, just do it. For those concerned with secrecy, anonymity and intelligence - go play D&D in your garage in private. Have some nutter butters and Mt Dew while you're at it.

I'd also like to see a revision to how murder notifications are assigned a quality. There is current some "point system" in place which I don't understand. If it were to be rationalized, you open up a whole new level of competition amongst players who:

a) Want to demonstrate most solo kills, or small gang kills, which would lead to more 'points' per kill than those blobbing.

b) Most points accumulated per person per corp, to see who blobbers are versus more 'pure' PvP elitists.

c) A duration of conflict component. 2 drakes killing a hurricane over 30 seconds versus 30 minutes is quite a different fight.

Right now killmails are too generic, unspecific and simply reward people to having locked a target. It's a pretty vacant system.
Wukulo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#257 - 2012-05-04 17:08:47 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Aidamina Omen wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.



Could you please elaborate on the part where you argue people having access to kill reports is a security concern. Your post reads as if you guys want to limit all information to kills, so that your new global killboards gets a monopoly on kill history. Is this the case, and if so will kill feeds as they are now provided through the api be restricted as well?


No, I can't elaborate other than concerns were raised with the current implementation. We're holding off on this feature until a point where we feel comfortable with it in its entirety.


Hey at least your QA guys actually caught something before it hit the live servers this time.

Posted on main because I'm not a coward like the rest of you.
Silly Slot
State War Academy
Caldari State
#258 - 2012-05-04 20:09:10 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.


Quick update: We're going to retain the functionality to share war info, as it's a pretty cool part of the feature. Non-war killmails will still not be part of the feature until we iron out some kinks.


im still gona cross my fingers you can fix it before inferno and let us link KM's i mean if its a security issue like i said just make the ID's unguessable and char specific
Pugwa Ikwakin
Doomheim
#259 - 2012-05-05 07:07:07 UTC
Killmail flows off the tongue.

Kill report does not, it is not as pleasing to the ear as killmail.

Don't change things for the sake of change, please. It creates unnecessary, mouth garbled conflict.
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#260 - 2012-05-05 12:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Silly Slot wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

For a while, we've been talking about global killboards and all the awesome stuff that comes with it (leaderboards, weekly contests etc). Linking killmails in chat to other players means that you'll effectively have access to that data, making our global killboard project slightly problematic. That, coupled with some security concerns means that we'll have to withdraw linking killmails ingame.

Just to make it clear, we're not pulling this feature because we don't want you linking killmails, we're pulling it because we have concerns about the impact on our global killboard project and making this massive amount of data available in a more graceful manner in terms of security etc.

It makes me sadface, but hopefully the tradeoff will be a better system down the road.
Quick update: We're going to retain the functionality to share war info, as it's a pretty cool part of the feature. Non-war killmails will still not be part of the feature until we iron out some kinks.
im still gona cross my fingers you can fix it before inferno and let us link KM's i mean if its a security issue like i said just make the ID's unguessable and char specific
There has been very fruitful discussions last evening and this morning. No promises but we may be able to allow all Kill Reports to be linkable (war-related Kill Reports will be linkable regardless).

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer